DB HSL south to Fulda disappointingly tedious

[HowardGWR]

An experience that may presage what a trip on HS2 may be like. We were diverted from an intended ICE from Hannover to Gottingen onto conventional lines and then regained the HSL south to Fulda, where we took another ICE back to Erfurt, the latter our intended destination.

I found the endless tunnels and brief respite across viaducts, on the line to Fulda, very disappointing. Of course all this infrastructure was sparing the lovely scenery from ICE intrusion, but for the tourist, it was an unimpressive experience.

Have others done this one and have they a different take on the above? Of course, if you were a businessman or otherwise, buried in a mobile device, you wouldn't care. I think the line from Munchen to Berlin will have a lot of that character south of Erfurt.

Edit I'll work out how to change Fudal to Fulda in the title - defeating me at the mo!

 

[317666]

I would've thought that the tunnels are more to do with making the line as flat as possible rather than to hide it?

When making a journey which involves Cologne to Frankfurt, I always try to use a conventional InterCity on that section along the beautiful Rhein Valley rather than an ICE, unless I need to be somewhere quickly. Luckily DB's journey planner allows you to be pretty creative - I managed to do Cologne to Berlin via Bremen and Magdeburg using ICs and an RE, for the same advance fare as a direct ICE would have been. Slower, but certainly a more interesting journey, especially with a first compartment on the ICs!

 

[Groningen]

In the past the train between Goettingen and Bebra went right along the West/East German border at Ellershausen. With speed one has to put down the views of the landscape scenery. In the past Muenchen - Hamburg was around 8 hours; now 5 hours and 45 minutes.

 

[endecotp]

"Endless tunnels and brief viaducts" was my reaction to Bologna-Firenze when I did that last autumn.

 

[Groningen]

i am not so sure whether there is a new line between Bologna and Firenze, but know that there is a very long tunnel even in the line of 30 years ago. And now the hammer from Wikipedia: the new line is 78.5 km long and includes 73.8 km of tunnels, 3.6 km on embankment or in cutting and 1.1 km on viaduct. Horrible!

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

"Endless tunnels and brief viaducts" was my reaction to Bologna-Firenze when I did that last autumn.

Even the old line (the 1930s Direttissima) on that route had a very long tunnel under the Apennines - 18.5km.
But the new one is a monster - 78.5km with more than 90% in tunnel. The longest individual tunnel is 15.3km.

The HS2 tunnels under the Chilterns will not be as long, but I fear that much of the rest of it will sit in low cuttings, still depriving passengers of views.

 

[jopsuk]

It's the nature of HS Lines that they're built straight as possible, and also that there's often strong demands for sound proofing.

Mindyou, HSL Zuid has a long stretch on a low viaduct

 

[Bald Rick]

I did the Hannover - Würzburg NBS not long after it opened. In those days, there weren't many ICEs, but it was used by conventional trains, which I was on; 200km/h max.

All I can remember is that it was incredibly smooth, and there wasn't much to see. I did however sleep most of the way due to having been on an overnight Berlin Zoo - Hannover seated service immediately beforehand.

 

[anme]

What you say is true, although HS1 might be a better comparison. I actually quite like HS1 - there's a lot of tunnel, but number of interesting sections that are very impressive at high speed.

 

[Senex]

I found the endless tunnels and brief respite across viaducts, on the line to Fulda, very disappointing. Of course all this infrastructure was sparing the lovely scenery from ICE intrusion, but for the tourist, it was an unimpressive experience.

The main reason for the tunnels and viaducts was engineering, not environmental, on this the first of the German high-speed lines. There was a deliberate choice to build the line not only for high speed but also with gradients suitable for the economic working of goods traffic. With a route across the grain of the countryside, this inevitably meant the very heavy engineering works that you see, including all those tunnels. The old line is very much more attractive, but very much slower and with some quite poor gradients.

This line was a main plank in the re-orientation of the BRD railway system from its previous basis with an awful lot of the routes on an east-west alignment to a new basis recognising the dominant north-south flows of the country resulting from the post-ware settlement. (NB I'm not disputing at all that the German railway system always was polycentric and was never a set-up where all main lines led to Berlin.)

 

[Gordon]

Even the old line (the 1930s Direttissima) on that route had a very long tunnel under the Apennines - 18.5km.
But the new one is a monster - 78.5km with more than 90% in tunnel. The longest individual tunnel is 15.3km.
.

To clarify, there are three lines from Bologna - Firenze, the original Porrettana line, the Direttissima, a 'high speed line' in its day first planned around 1900 but opened in the 1930s, and the recent '2nd generation' high speed line.

To answer the OP, German high speed lines are by nature likely to have quite a few tunnels, as the whole of the southern half of present day Germany is a pretty hilly country and a lot of Germany's original railways are decidedly sinuous in nature.



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[Groningen]

About that italian tunnel between Firenze and Bologna. At Firenze Castello it dissapears in the ground; above ground at Scarperia and comes above ground at Via la Bastia in Bologna.

 

[dutchflyer]

Back to the subject and for Germany:
Another major reason is the German tendency of its citizens to ask for anything that might spoil their view (or rather the assumed value of their bought house?) to be put away-behind the mountain, in it or under it.
But here in NL they also put that HSL of maybe 50 kms between Schiphol airport and Rotterdam for some 10 kms in a tunnel, in a landscape as flat as pancakes, as those self-appointed environment protecters did not want to see ugly trains in their pristine views of cows and meadows.

 

[HowardGWR]

Back to the subject and for Germany:
Another major reason is the German tendency of its citizens to ask for anything that might spoil their view (or rather the assumed value of their bought house?) to be put away-behind the mountain, in it or under it.
But here in NL they also put that HSL of maybe 50 kms between Schiphol airport and Rotterdam for some 10 kms in a tunnel, in a landscape as flat as pancakes, as those self-appointed environment protecters did not want to see ugly trains in their pristine views of cows and meadows.

Don't forget noise. The Groene Hart ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Groene_Hart) is supposed to be a rare area of tranquillity in NL, as well as being a defence against coalescence of urban development, similar to our Green Belt legislation. If you go near Edam and Monnickendam, IIRC, there is about one green field left between the two. Of course citizens of those two would say the real separation is somewhat greater than based on that! (Local joke).

Hooray, I managed to change the thread title! Mods, the FAQ doesn't list how, at least when I tried 'edit thread title' and portions of that phrase. In fact, if you select edit on the post and then select 'advanced' button, then you can. Just 'edit' only allows editing the post. HTH

On the German question, as long as DB does not close the lines left after an HSL opens, the scenic route will always be available, as others have pointed out. Worth remembering though, when planning trips.

 

[Groningen]

Make you than ready for the (loss making) High Speed Line Nuernberg - Erfurt. From Wikipedia: Fifty per cent of the planned line consists of tunnels, viaducts and bridges – the highest proportion yet for a new line in Germany. Its 22 tunnels have a total length of 41 km (as the line is 107 km; almost 40 % in a tunnel); the two longest are the 8,314 m-long Blessberg tunnel and the 7,315 m-long Silberberg tunnel.

 

[Gordon]

High Speed Line Nuernberg - Erfurt. Fifty per cent of the planned line consists of tunnels, viaducts and bridges .

I repeat my earlier point - the southern half of Germany is a hilly part of Europe.

The whole reason for the Nürnberg - Erfurt high speed line is to build a high speed route through a mountainous barrier on the München - Berlin axis, so it is bound to have tunnels and viaducts. Tunnels and viaducts are there to keep modern high speed lines level, and thus to cut journey times by replacing a sinuous 'mountain' route which, in this case, whilst not the Alps, is a route with lots of bends and gradients (maximum 2.9 percent). It's highest point is almost 2,000ft - that's higher than any British main line railway summit.



.

 

[HowardGWR]

I repeat my earlier point - the southern half of Germany is a hilly part of Europe.

The whole reason for the Nürnberg - Erfurt high speed line is to build a high speed route through a mountainous barrier on the München - Berlin axis, so it is bound to have tunnels and viaducts. Tunnels and viaducts are there to keep modern high speed lines level, and thus to cut journey times by replacing a sinuous 'mountain' route which, in this case, whilst not the Alps, is a route with lots of bends and gradients (maximum 2.9 percent). It's highest point is almost 2,000ft - that's higher than any British main line railway summit.
.

I hope I didn't give the impression I wa moaning about the HSL design. On the contrary, I support the hiding away of motorways and railways. It's just that I think it would be useful to have a Kindle or do some work on these lines, as you won't see much of northern Bavaria and Thuringia (when that bit is opened)! The flashes over the viaducts are spectacular though. Perhaps a good railfan trip would be HSL one way (morning (sun in front of you) and conventional the other (afternoon going north, with sun behind you, revealing lovely colours).

 

[Gordon]

I hope I didn't give the impression I wa moaning about the HSL design. On the contrary, I support the hiding away of motorways and railways. It's just that I think it would be useful to have a Kindle or do some work on these lines, as you won't see much of northern Bavaria and Thuringia (when that bit is opened)! The flashes over the viaducts are spectacular though. Perhaps a good railfan trip would be HSL one way (morning (sun in front of you) and conventional the other (afternoon going north, with sun behind you, revealing lovely colours).

The New Erfurt route certainly has some spectacular viaduct sections, which I saw under construction a few years ago.

In this respect it will be much more interesting than the Hannover - Wurzburg 'original'

http://www.vde8.de/assets/images/projekt/17-Orchideenwiese.jpg

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipe...Juni2013.jpg/1920px-Ilmtalbrücke-Juni2013.jpg



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[Groningen]

The Erfurt line going south can already been seen on Google Maps Earth.

 

[HowardGWR]

The Erfurt line going south can already been seen on Google Maps Earth.

Indeed and while there recently I was able to follow it on the ground, having hired a car for a few days. The designers have taken great care to blend it into the magnificent countryside, except where the viaducts cross the many valleys and they are, IMO, a beautiful addition to the landscape rather than a detraction.

Through Erfurt itself, it could be thought that the HSL is condemned to use the conventional line, but in fact they are busy separating the two, by building extra lines. Using a local train from Erfurt to Weimar, I got the impression that the new line being constructed on the south side will become the local line and the present line would become the HSL line, as it diverges to the north. Just an impression though.

My only regret was I didn't have time to visit the locomotive museum at Weimar (will have to return and Erfurt is so lovely a city to stay in).

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Through Erfurt itself, it could be thought that the HSL is condemned to use the conventional line, but in fact they are busy separating the two, by building extra lines. Using a local train from Erfurt to Weimar, I got the impression that the new line being constructed on the south side will become the local line and the present line would become the HSL line, as it diverges to the north. Just an impression though.

I though everything was finished east of Erfurt?
West of Erfurt the NBS initially separates north of the classic line to Bebra and then swings over it southwards, after about 6km.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halle–Bebra_railway

I'll be doing a trip myself through the area in October.

 

[HowardGWR]

I though everything was finished east of Erfurt?

I'll be doing a trip myself through the area in October.

No, there was still much to do. Of course the ICE HS line is finished from the junction towards Leipzig / Halle, but the actual extra tracks through Erfurt were still being constructed, as I described. Let us know what you find when you get there, thanks in advance.

 

[Groningen]

Not the same line; a bit further north, but the HSL between Hannover and Goettingen will be closed from July 18 till September 2nd, 2016. Delays up to 30 minutes. So one can enjoy the Leine valley even more.

By the way because of the HSL between Nuernberg and Erfurt; the line between Bamberg and Lichtenfels has busses from January 12, 2016 till September 3. ICE Muenchen - Berlin run via Fulda. That detour over Fulda costs you 2 hours and 14 minutes in traveltime!

 

[sarahj]

I'm just back from my hols and spent a few days in the village of Auggen, just south of Freiburg. There the line is ABS and has been slowly upgraded over the years. However, the area is up in arms with the DB's plan to fit noise protection barriers, which they claim are so high it would block their view (which is very pretty) of the hills in France across the Rhine, and VV. They want DB to bury the line in a covered cutting. There were lots of poster and banners all over the place, and we arrived on the day when there had been a big meeting on the subject.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

By the way because of the HSL between Nuernberg and Erfurt; the line between Bamberg and Lichtenfels has busses from January 12, 2016 till September 3. ICE Muenchen - Berlin run via Fulda. That detour over Fulda costs you 2 hours and 14 minutes in traveltime!

As far as I can see the diverted Berlin-Munich ICEs take the same time via Fulda as via Jena (eg 1227-1841), though of course it's much further.
Times will come down a lot when the direct NBS opens next year.

 

[Groningen]

I'm just back from my hols and spent a few days in the village of Auggen, just south of Freiburg.

Just south of Auggen there is a new tunnel. At Istein the speed was at the most at 70 kilometers an hour (curves). With the new tunnel speed is up and this has a time saving of 2 minutes! Progress! In the Netherlands the putting up of soundwalls is also up. View of the trainyard in Onnen (south of Groningen) has gone away.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
There is already a Youtube with part of the Bamberg - Erfurt HSL. Not normal speed!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ay_UT_xLNG4