Southern DOO: ASLEF members vote 79.1% for revised deal

[Bald Rick]

Perhaps a group of safety experts could be convened to examine all the evidence properly, with representation from unions, DfT, TOCs, passenger groups, disability advocacy groups, etc - with both sides agreeing at the outset to accept the result?

I totally agree with this, and can't understand why it hasn't been done.

 

[speedy_sticks]

Fair enough. If the RMT really won't accept ANY such changes then it's the duty of the management to do whatever is necessary to keep the business on a firm, profitable, footing. If you're a PLC then that's their legal responsibility. If the RMT refuse changes then the management will impose them. What else do you expect - the company needs to survive !

But it's making a profit!

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

And now doubt there would be complaints from nearby residents with regard to any new lighting being too bright especially as some of the stations along the west coastway are fairly close together and run through substantial residential areas

Surely an improvement in station lighting would be a benefit to passengers on the platforms in the evening hours.

 

[Carlisle]

Surely an improvement in station lighting would be a benefit to passengers on the platforms in the evening hours.

Yes I recall when BR NSE started to introduce DOO in a big way from around 1989 they had to renew every light on every station on the routes that were converted to get them up to standard

 

[absolutelymilk]

But it's making a profit!

Normally, those who buy shares are effectively loaning their money to the company, and get back more than they would if they put it in a bank, but have a risk attached. If they are making 1.5% a year (as GTR currently are) then they will put their money somewhere else and the company will cease to exist.

 

[spangles]

But it's making a profit!

We don't actually know that. They posted a loss last year and they have recently revised down the LIFETIME profit forecast to 1.5%. Given such a low margin over the life of the franchise I imagine they are making a loss in the first couple of years...especially with their currently poor performance.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

Surely an improvement in station lighting would be a benefit to passengers on the platforms in the evening hours.

Indeed, but probably not for the NIMBYs....

 

[JamesTT]

Word is going around at the depots that the lighting at stations along the East and West Coastways is inadequate for the use of the in-cab screens on the 377s (they do require a very good, bright light throughout the entire platform to give a sufficient view)

Apparently Network Rail are not willing to foot the bill to upgrade the lighting.

I think I mentioned something about this in an earlier post to a deafening silence.

I was also pilloried for suggesting the RMT should have negotiated pure BML should be DOO with OBS staff on selected trains. That branches should maintain conductors due to infastructure short comings.

I would add to this that there should be an expectation that lighting etc will be up to scratch by the ITT for the next franchise and those in conductor/OBS roles should be afforded the opportunity for career development. So they are able to move on in the event these roles cease to exist come 2021
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
just waiting for the abuse :roll:

 

[455driver]

Aslef's decision is pragmatic & sensible & demonstrates why it is such a successful Union. RMT would have demanded an even more expensive day in court,lost, & blustered on like the dinosaur it is until it had spent every last penny of members money on wasted costs. Drivers are the future of Southern (& many guards can become drivers). Because the selection tests are quite demanding most drivers are calibre employees &,as the statistics show, well able to do DOO safely.

Red the SPAD notice case lately?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Red the SPAD notice case lately?

I do like your play on words using Red and SPAD in the same sentence...

 

[455driver]

The standard for Lighting in DOO conditions is set out by the RSSB. If a station does not meet this standard then DOO cannot be used.

I feel certain the RSSB will just rewrite the spec to make the stations compliant.

 

[Captain Chaos]

Aslef's decision is pragmatic & sensible & demonstrates why it is such a successful Union. RMT would have demanded an even more expensive day in court,lost, & blustered on like the dinosaur it is until it had spent every last penny of members money on wasted costs. Drivers are the future of Southern (& many guards can become drivers). Because the selection tests are quite demanding most drivers are calibre employees &,as the statistics show, well able to do DOO safely.

Being able to do the Drivers tests makes you a "caliber employee" does it? Now we know why GTR management are so inept and useless. They never had to do the drivers assessment!

That comment is just an insult to literally any other grade.

 

[455driver]

I do like your play on words using Red and SPAD in the same sentence...

That was actually a typo!

But on another note I have watched RED 43 (safety video) today and if ever there was a video about why DOO leads to information overload and confusion which then leads to injuries/deaths then this is it.

A very thought provoking video.

Edit=
It would seem that the Tories have got the proles where they want them after the latest Court ruling, back under their shoes.

 

[Flamingo]

Being able to do the Drivers tests makes you a "caliber employee" does it? Now we know why GTR management are so inept and useless. They never had to do the drivers assessment!

That comment is just an insult to literally any other grade.

Oh good, it wasn't just me thinking that...

Mind you, I liked his "most" drivers - Guards are there to keep an eye on the dull ones

 

[455driver]

That's why some drivers walk round with their noses in the air, it's because they are 'special'.

 

[HH]

I feel certain the RSSB will just rewrite the spec to make the stations compliant.

This is nonsense and you know it.

Practically everything that has been written about lighting so far has been nonsense TBH. Replacing the lighting with LED will probably pay back over the life of the franchise and there are ancillary benefits, not least a perception of greater security. NR never pay for station lighting.

I doubt if there would be any complaints by nearby householders - what sets them off is much brighter and higher lights on Car Parks, which often abut accommodation. The Platform lighting needs to be even without any dark spots, not hugely bright. In any case I doubt there's much anyone can do except complain, if GTR do it correctly.

If GTR are surprised by the lighting requirements then they are incompetent; it's a known issue and it doesn't cost much to carry out a survey.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Being able to do the Drivers tests makes you a "caliber employee" does it?

The last time that I saw the word "caliber" was when I was working in Canada and it was use with reference to the inside diameter of very large pipework that we were proposing to use on a Canadian Hydro project.

 

[XDM]

Calibre. Person of quality etc.

 

[Skimble19]

This is nonsense and you know it.

Practically everything that has been written about lighting so far has been nonsense TBH. Replacing the lighting with LED will probably pay back over the life of the franchise and there are ancillary benefits, not least a perception of greater security. NR never pay for station lighting.

I doubt if there would be any complaints by nearby householders - what sets them off is much brighter and higher lights on Car Parks, which often abut accommodation. The Platform lighting needs to be even without any dark spots, not hugely bright. In any case I doubt there's much anyone can do except complain, if GTR do it correctly.

If GTR are surprised by the lighting requirements then they are incompetent; it's a known issue and it doesn't cost much to carry out a survey.

Surveys are currently being carried out across the GN route at present (not sure about TL or Southern, but I would imagine there too), most stations on which have failed miserably so far.. The only ones to pass are ones that have recently had very bright LEDs installed, and unfortunately a couple of them have only just about scraped a pass.. Big upgrades to the lighting are required, until then darkness manual dispatch will continue from Platform staff at stations with mirrors, no idea what will happen when the 387s come into service yet though.

The nonsense about it being ignored or rules changed is totally untrue though, it is an issue and they are taking it very seriously.

 

[Class377/5]

This is nonsense and you know it.

Practically everything that has been written about lighting so far has been nonsense TBH. Replacing the lighting with LED will probably pay back over the life of the franchise and there are ancillary benefits, not least a perception of greater security. NR never pay for station lighting.

I doubt if there would be any complaints by nearby householders - what sets them off is much brighter and higher lights on Car Parks, which often abut accommodation. The Platform lighting needs to be even without any dark spots, not hugely bright. In any case I doubt there's much anyone can do except complain, if GTR do it correctly.

If GTR are surprised by the lighting requirements then they are incompetent; it's a known issue and it doesn't cost much to carry out a survey.

It's NR thats responsible for lightening at stations where it renews them. Happened in a few places where the new lighting failed to match the old and it affected the train service that was able to be provided.

Surveys are currently being carried out across the GN route at present (not sure about TL or Southern, but I would imagine there too), most stations on which have failed miserably so far.. The only ones to pass are ones that have recently had very bright LEDs installed, and unfortunately a couple of them have only just about scraped a pass.. Big upgrades to the lighting are required, until then darkness manual dispatch will continue from Platform staff at stations with mirrors, no idea what will happen when the 387s come into service yet though.

The nonsense about it being ignored or rules changed is totally untrue though, it is an issue and they are taking it very seriously.

Surveys are done a regular cycle to ensure everything is operating as it should do. Any issues have a chain to be followed to ensure everything is being done correctly and safely.

 

[Dave1987]

One wonders how they are going to meet their pledge of having two staff on each train? They are at pains to stress to passengers that they are not cutting on board staff, but some guards will take redundancy and anyone who does accept the OBS role will be an RPI basically and they have already said that the OBS role will be expected to go anywhere over the franchise network. So how on earth do they expect to fulfill that pledge to passengers?

 

[BestWestern]

Calibre. Person of quality etc.

As in "GTR has shockingly low calibre management", etc.

 

[maniacmartin]

I think pedantic Paul was just commenting on the american spelling.

 

[tony6499]

One wonders how they are going to meet their pledge of having two staff on each train? They are at pains to stress to passengers that they are not cutting on board staff, but some guards will take redundancy and anyone who does accept the OBS role will be an RPI basically and they have already said that the OBS role will be expected to go anywhere over the franchise network. So how on earth do they expect to fulfill that pledge to passengers?

They won't, expect the usual weasel words when there is no 2nd person as they use now Southern Are Sorry To Announce, or as they are now called in a lot of places SASTA

 

[ctom_s]

Presumable everyone has seen this?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-sussex-36601301

It says there will be no more industrial action from ASLEF, which is contrary to what people stated earlier that the industrial action will continue. Or are we saying that the RMT will continue striking but ASLEF won't?

I've only been dipping in and out of the thread so may have missed something

 

[Wolfie]

Presumable everyone has seen this?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-sussex-36601301

It says there will be no more industrial action from ASLEF, which is contrary to what people stated earlier that the industrial action will continue. Or are we saying that the RMT will continue striking but ASLEF won't?

I've only been dipping in and out of the thread so may have missed something

It had been discusssed..

There are two questions:

1 What is the scope of that 'no more industrial action'? ie Gatwick Express, GEx plus Southern or all of GTR.. given that GTR pursued a narrow technicality over GEx the former is quite likely.

2 Even if there is no industrial action per se GTR have completely poisoned any goodwill so drivers will likely work to contract - no rest day working etc - so disruption will continue indefinitely given that GTR is understaffed and has relied on staff flexibility to make up the shortfall.

 

[swt_passenger]

I think pedantic Paul was just commenting on the american spelling.

Or possibly its use without a suitable qualifying word such as 'high', which would have been considered fairly normal at one time.

 

[Tetchytyke]

It says there will be no more industrial action from ASLEF, which is contrary to what people stated earlier that the industrial action will continue. Or are we saying that the RMT will continue striking but ASLEF won't?

ASLEF have been told that their actions in telling drivers not to drive 12-car DOO(P) trains on Gatwick Express is likely to be interpreted at trial as them inducing their members to strike illegally. There were separate issues about some of the depots ASLEF chose to ballot, where GTR said that although hypothetically the drivers could have to drive DOO(P) on Gatwick Express, in reality they wouldn't, and so shouldn't have been balloted. Justice Supperstone sided with GTR, and found that the ballot was flawed because GTR said they wouldn't have to drive DOO(P) on GatEx and ASLEF's separate professional advice was an "inducement to strike".

I think the court's interim decision meant that the chances of winning a trial were very slim, and it was better to cut one's losses.

The RMT, as a separate trade union, are not bound by anything ASLEF agree. However it does undermine their strike action as, should GTR force through the changes, strike action will not prevent services from running.

As an aside, Justice Supperstone has a long history of anti-trade union judgments, including a recent case where he found that people in the construction industry who had illegally "blacklisted" union members should not be tried at criminal law for their actions. His rationale was that they'd said sorry so they shouldn't face criminal sanctions for their 40 years of illegal blacklisting.

 

[TheEdge]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-sussex-36601301

It says there will be no more industrial action from ASLEF, which is contrary to what people stated earlier that the industrial action will continue. Or are we saying that the RMT will continue striking but ASLEF won't?

My understanding is this seems that the Gatex matter is closed but that was always a bit of a tenuous one to call an extension of DOO, considering the 442s were DOO already anyway.

It however doesn't cover the extension of DOO across the rest of the GTR network, which I guess GTR will be extending.

 

[Solent&Wessex]

My understanding is this seems that the Gatex matter is closed but that was always a bit of a tenuous one to call an extension of DOO, considering the 442s were DOO already anyway.

It however doesn't cover the extension of DOO across the rest of the GTR network, which I guess GTR will be extending.

That is my interpretation too.

I always thought the GatEx 12 car issue was a bit silly and doomed to failure.

The extension of DOO across the Southern network, to routes that currently have no DOO at all, is entirely different I think. Driving a new DOO train that just happens to be a few metres longer than the DOO train you have been driving for some years, stopping at the same stations on the same route is entirely different, I think, to introducing DOO somewhere completely new where it doesn't exist.

Aslef, if it decides to concentrate on no more Southern DOO will however need to check any agreements, contracts, conditions etc are all watertight or it will end up with no money left!

If Aslef chooses not to, or cannot because of existing contracts where it has in effect already agreed to it many years ago, then the national big picture changes somewhat. I could see that the extension of DOO-P at TOCS which already have it on any route would be virtually impossible to argue against.