Southern DOO: ASLEF members vote 79.1% for revised deal

[Carlisle]

Agreed, but it simply won't work if the employees don't respect the management - I'm sure some of those are also 'decent people that genuinely care'.

It takes two to tango.

Yes we're delving into the fundamental psychology of power and control, which ill guess even today is probably a lot more unsophisticated than a lot of us would like to believe

 

[theironroad]

Do GTR and the DfT actually want any staff other than drivers left at the end of the franchise?

If the technology could be deployed overnight, they'd love to get rid of drivers as well.

A front line staff-less railway is what Whitehall seems to want.
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Some good satire from The Brighton Gazette.


https://brightongazelle.co.uk/man-m...d-southern-rail-train-9d0f91a45493#.rgx860fo6

Factually incorrect: the man had no choice between eating his limbs and buying from a overpriced buffet at southern,because we all know that southern ripped up their catering contract a couple of years ago when the catering staff were given one week's notification that there would no longer be any trolleys on southern services.

First they came for the trolley steward, then they came for the guard, then the signaller and then the train driver....all so technology and automation could lead to the ultimate government dream of a staff-less railway.

 

[JamesTT]

A question for you. If DFT are all for a completely automated railway with no staff. Why are network rail not working round the clock to get certain routes up to scratch for DOO. Surely that will be a major stumbling block in the DOO mission

 

[theironroad]

A question for you. If DFT are all for a completely automated railway with no staff. Why are network rail not working round the clock to get certain routes up to scratch for DOO. Surely that will be a major stumbling block in the DOO mission

...because what the dft desire and what NR are competently able to deliver on time/budget are further apart than Tim Peake and earth were until today.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

A question for you. If DFT are all for a completely automated railway with no staff. Why are network rail not working round the clock to get certain routes up to scratch for DOO. Surely that will be a major stumbling block in the DOO mission

Where has this stated matter of an automated railway with no staff surfaced from?

 

[philthetube]

Perhaps one of the Southern Managers on here tell me why I shouldn't carry out a disability discrimination case against Southern regarding DOO/OBS.

This will have a severe impact on the disabled and vulnerable folks.

This isn't London folks, outside London is very different!

Why hasn't a Diversity Impact Accessment been carried out on these changes?

Please tell me how I am supposed to know if an OBS is on my train?

I guess from your previous posts that you would know your way around the law concerning disability. Have you contacted appropriate groups trying to find someone to take on a legal case, it must be worth a go.

 

[Wolfie]

I guess from your previous posts that you would know your way around the law concerning disability. Have you contacted appropriate groups trying to find someone to take on a legal case, it must be worth a go.

Given that the Equality and Human Rights Commission funded the Supreme Court case over wheelchair spaces on buses that would seem to be a body worth approaching.

 

[313103]

Where has this stated matter of an automated railway with no staff surfaced from?

Why not? everyone it would appear wants rid of the guards and other members of staff that are regarded as non essential to get DOO as the norm (infact it seems many on here want it in, or at least those that are shouting the loudest).

Then there are those who are advocating the closing of ticket offices. So lets go the whole hog and get rid of the drivers as well.

At least no one on here will moan about surly members of staff (just look at the thread regarding the female member of staff at Newport and the farce at Bourne End and Paddington), trains being cancelled because of no guards (i mean look at this thread and quite a few others, you would think trains are only cancelled because of there being no guard), no trains being cancelled because of no driver being unavailable (although you wont believe it, it does happen and more frequently then you think).

So i say they are getting rid of the Guards (certainly across the whole network), they are getting rid of ticket office staff (they have started in the West Midlands and on Southern, Scotrail also want to go down this road). So what is your and in fact anyone else you want rid of guards and station so why the silence on getting rid of drivers?

 

[embers25]

Can anyone explain the RMT strike day understanding on the dispute on this particular thread, noting the number of such strike days and their frequency in such an extremely bitter dispute and the RMT confirming next week' strike days in Scotland on the dispute there, which are:-
Tuesday, 21st June
Thursday, 23rd June
Saturday, 25th June
Sunday, 26th June

I make that four strike days in Scotland in a six day period and I wonder how many RMT members there will find they are going to be a large sum out of pocket, whereas on this dispute in England, no such multi-strike day announcement of a similar nature has been made.

Simple. Southern staff refused more strikes than absolutely necessary (despite the RMT trying to force them to and having to back down) as GTR are refusing to pay them for a lot longer and GTR took away staff perks for strikers.

 

[313103]

Simple. Southern staff refused more strikes than absolutely necessary (despite the RMT trying to force them to and having to back down) as GTR are refusing to pay them for a lot longer and GTR took away staff perks for strikers.

Any evidence of that, or just a bit of hearsay?

 

[74A]

Any evidence of that, or just a bit of hearsay?

Well I think the fact that RMT announced 2 strikes spread over 4 days but then amended it to 1 strike lasting 24 hours after GTR said the guards would lose 4 days pay is quite strong evidence. We also know that they stopped RDW as well so the guards could not make up the money lost in striking.

 

[JamesTT]

Simple. Southern staff refused more strikes than absolutely necessary (despite the RMT trying to force them to and having to back down) as GTR are refusing to pay them for a lot longer and GTR took away staff perks for strikers.

Maybe Scotrail will withdraw staff travel and parking perks. They might not ban overtime after seeing the mess Southern have ended up in, also won't they get fined for the cancellations caused by lack of Train crew unlike Southern

 

[speedy_sticks]

Given that the Equality and Human Rights Commission funded the Supreme Court case over wheelchair spaces on buses that would seem to be a body worth approaching.

Watch this space.....

 

[LowLevel]

Watch this space.....

I wish you the best of luck. You're quite right that going from a guaranteed turn up and travel service to one that's hit and miss is a significant disadvantage for a person in your position. I hope you can find someone to take your case.

 

[infobleep]

You should check that source again - it's the Brighton Gazelle, not Gazette.

My apologies. I was trying from memory, which isn't perfect at times. I still like the story though.

Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk

 

[455driver]

Maybe Scotrail will withdraw staff travel and parking perks. They might not ban overtime after seeing the mess Southern have ended up in, also won't they get fined for the cancellations caused by lack of Train crew unlike Southern

ScotRail might not ban their staff from working rest days but not many staff would work any if there is a dispute going on, I certainly wouldnt!

 

[maniacmartin]

News thump also have a parody news article:

Calls for UN to provide humanitarian aid to Southern Rail passengers

As desperate scenes of human suffering play out at Southern Rail stations across Sussex, London, and Surrey, the UN has been urged to step in and provide much-needed aid.

As part of an increasingly bitter campaign against the RMT, Southern Rail, with the support of Rail Minister Claire Perry, have been cancelling hundreds of services on a daily basis, leading to harrowing scenes across the network.

“I’ve been waiting for the 17.40 service to Brighton since Tuesday,” said Simon Williams, a commuter in advanced stages of malnutrition, at London Bridge station.

“I’m not even sure what year my kids are in at school, it’s been so long since I’ve seen them,” said Eleanor Gay, her hollow eyes haunted by the horror of travelling by Southern Rail.

Around the concourses of London Bridge and London Victoria, small groups of men and women huddle together for support and warmth as they swap rumours of potential services that may be running, or remember better times when their train company actually ran trains.

Although the parochial nature of the dispute means that interest has been localised, it is feared that similar scenes could soon be played out across the country as the Government seeks to bring in swathing cuts to the entire rail system.

The casualties in all this though are passengers like Simon and Eleanor who just want to get home in time for Corrie, and surely it is time for the UN to intercede and provide food, water, blankets and televisions showing Corrie for all those who are suffering.

 

[380101]

And DOO is safe & used world wide. Why on earth can't the public have it.
It allows trains to be run slightly more cheaply,quicker because all the bell ringing is eliminated & much more reliably because if a guard doesn't turn up the train can still run. And hopefully that will happen in August on Southern. A year later we will wonder what all the fuss was about. And former guards might enjoy not having to leap out in rain & snow, & enjoy earning a 5% ticket percentage without having transactions continually interrupted at each station.

I drive both DOO and services with a conductor/guard. My dwell times at stations are significantly longer when driving DOO services. The idea that dwell times will improve with DOO is a joke. DOO drivers are constantly reminded of the dangers and risks of DOO with the current incidents and CPS prosecutions.

 

[N228PF]

as someone who has only taken a Southern train once, when I got on it instead of a GatEx, I've got a few questions:

Why can't the guards use CCTV to close doors? If GTR see this as a safer method, let the guards use it. If GTR were against this, then it's very obvious that OBS would be cut in the not so distant future.

Is it the opinion of the Southern staff (or unions) that in the future there will not be platform staff or train staff within sight when a train has pulled into the station? Seeing how many trains and platforms have large gaps and steps, I don't see how this could possibly be safe. That or how badly would it delay a train waiting for a member of staff to help them.

On a side note I don't understand why they don't rebuild platforms to be bloody level with trains and set strict size regulations for the thousands of carriages being built for the future. But that's a bit off topic.

 

[NSEFAN]

On a side note I don't understand why they don't rebuild platforms to be bloody level with trains and set strict size regulations for the thousands of carriages being built for the future. But that's a bit off topic.

It's quite easy to do with new-build stations with straight platforms. Modifying existing infrastructure is generally expensive, and around curves however it's not possible to have no gap as the middle of the carriage would foul the platform edge. There are solutions, such as moving platforms to bridge the gap when the train stops, however this would cost £££.

 

[G136GREYHOUND]

And DOO is safe & used world wide. Why on earth can't the public have it.
It allows trains to be run slightly more cheaply,quicker because all the bell ringing is eliminated & much more reliably because if a guard doesn't turn up the train can still run. And hopefully that will happen in August on Southern. A year later we will wonder what all the fuss was about. And former guards might enjoy not having to leap out in rain & snow, & enjoy earning a 5% ticket percentage without having transactions continually interrupted at each station.

Look Mr Horton or his minion,

You speak as a person who has never driven a DOO train ! quicker running ? Like hell matey, not when I'm being scared every time I take a shower for 5 years if someone drops down the PTI and I don't notice ! If i'm not 110% sure of whats alongside and in front of my train , I don't take power, you think I'm putting myself at risk for you and your gold plated pension and knighthood ?

 

[JamesTT]

Regarding speed of dispatch this is what I have seen at station's with dispatch staff.

DOO train being dispatched at a station takes about 15 seconds from close doors tip to train taking power

Conductor operated train about 25 seconds from platform staff first tip to train taking power
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JOOI has anyone else seen RMT's seven point plan yet?

 

[ComUtoR]

Regarding speed of dispatch this is what I have seen at station's with dispatch staff.

DOO train being dispatched at a station takes about 15 seconds from close doors tip to train taking power

Conductor operated train about 25 seconds from platform staff first tip to train taking power

Your not seeing the whole dispatch process and selectively choosing which parts to compare.

 

[LAX54]

Regarding speed of dispatch this is what I have seen at station's with dispatch staff.

DOO train being dispatched at a station takes about 15 seconds from close doors tip to train taking power

Conductor operated train about 25 seconds from platform staff first tip to train taking power
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
JOOI has anyone else seen RMT's seven point plan yet?

15 seconds from 'close doors' you have not taken into account the 20 seconds or so checking that the train is clear to have the doors close. "Close Doors" is midway through the sequence !

 

[JamesTT]

Your not seeing the whole dispatch process and selectively choosing which parts to compare.

The dispatch staff would not give the close doors signal and the train safety check complete signals unless they believed it was safe to do so though
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15 seconds from 'close doors' you have not taken into account the 20 seconds or so checking that the train is clear to have the doors close. "Close Doors" is midway through the sequence !

The 20 seconds will be the same whether the train is DOO or has a conductor

 

[G136GREYHOUND]

The dispatch staff would not give the close doors signal and the train safety check complete signals unless they believed it was safe to do so though
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


The 20 seconds will be the same whether the train is DOO or has a conductor

different animal altogether, Guard dispatch is usually - but not always much quicker, the odd guard does leave you thinking : "come on FFS", but that's an exception.

Often the scenario is, STOP, take breather, think about taking a drink of your coffee, BUZZ, BUZZ, - crap, off again,. BUZZ BUZZ, gone, before as DOO, you would have even started getting your excreta together to think about opening the doors after checking you didn't have the ass end hanging off the platform before opening the doors !

Compared to a much slower stop EXACTLY by a mirror or monitor - a guarded stop is MUCH quicker as the car stop markers are not NEARLY so vital to be in EXACTLY the right place, and a much slower, check, check, triple check, check out the front, check again, take power hoping like copulation that noone is now running alongside pressing the buttons

 

[LAX54]

The dispatch staff would not give the close doors signal and the train safety check complete signals unless they believed it was safe to do so though
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


The 20 seconds will be the same whether the train is DOO or has a conductor

You said the time was quicker for DOO, think he and others were saying that is obviously not true...If its 15 seconds from 'Close Doors' buttom, it will be 15 seconds from a guard / Stn Satff too ! Doors don't close any quicker on a DOO train

 

[JamesTT]

Just to be clear I was referring to dispatch involving platform staff. With or without guard

 

[ComUtoR]

Just to be clear I was referring to dispatch involving platform staff. With or without guard

Just to be clear......

Platform staff giving the bat'n'flag to the Guard directly compared to the bat'n'flag given to the Driver ?

Or are you making **** up to suit your case again ?

 

[JamesTT]

Just to be clear......

Platform staff giving the bat'n'flag to the Guard directly compared to the bat'n'flag given to the Driver ?

Or are you making **** up to suit your case again ?

Well firstly platform staff don't show a flag to a conductor. And I am not making up anything