A question about AWS.

[Scott]

When me and my family visited the York Railway Museum, we got talking to a helper there called Ian. He told me that if a driver misses 1 AWS warning and the brakes are applied, he/she automatically gets sacked and banned from driving trains for life. Is this true?

This scares me seeing as I was thinking about becoming a train driver when I leave school. It also seems unfair because a perfectly good train driver could have their whole career gone because of 1 simple mistake.

By the way, I'm sorry if this is in the wrong forum. I'm new to the forums. I did check other forums though and this seemed to be the right one.

 

[91101]

Haha, I think the assistant at the museum was being a bit overeager! Missing the AWS isn't a massive issue and happens every now and again, all that will usually happen is the brakes will apply, the train will to brough to a stand and the then the driver will release them and be on his way, with about 3-4minutes delay and perhaps being wound up by the lads at the depot for being a numpty, but its certainly not the end of the world!

Having a SPAD, or Signal Passed at Danger, is a much more serious incident, where a driver will drive past a red signal. After this sort of event the driver will usually be interviewed, and his manager will have to get the bottom of why it happened. There are all sorts of reasons why these things happen, like distractions or slippery rails, or a poor brake, and again, unless the driver concerned deliberately set out to have a SPAD then usually it still wouldn't mean the sack!

 

[Scott]

Thanks. I'm glad to know that it isn't really punishable at all.

And he did seem a bit overeager in the way that he was talking. :-P

Also, doesn't TPWS prevent SPADs from occuring? I learnt somewhere that TPWS has sensors on the track leading up to a red signal that automatically apply the brakes if the train goes over them at too high a speed to stop in time for the signal.

 

[Mojo]

Also, doesn't TPWS prevent SPADs from occuring? I learnt somewhere that TPWS has sensors on the track leading up to a red signal that automatically apply the brakes if the train goes over them at too high a speed to stop in time for the signal.

Not necessarily. Whilst TPWS will normally stop a train in the overlap past the signal, this depends on the speed of the train and also on poor adhesion. At higher speeds, TPWS is also unlikely to stop a train within this overlap.

 

[rail-britain]

Whilst travelling as a passenger to get to my holiday I got recognised and roped into assisting on a 1V58 Edinburgh - Glasgow - Penzance HST on Sunday 09 August 1992
The Power Car suffered two AWS failures (it had already lost power before it arrived in Glasgow)

Even though the driver cancelled the AWS warning it would not release, resulting in the brakes applying and the train coming to a halt
I then sat in the rear cab, with the Fire Alarm bells ringing in the background as far as Barrhead, and as each emergency brake application was made as we passed each signal I then reset the brake valve
Finally just before pasing Barrhead both Power Cars were declared failures for other faults, and the set was looped into Platform 2 to allow other southbound services to pass
It took 40 minutes to find another loco, and we were eventually rescued two hours later with a pair of Class 26s (26005 and 26026), as far as Carlisle
The AWS system could not be repaired so the journey was completed using a variety of Class 47s, from Carlisle to Bristol, Bristol to Plymouth, and one final one from Plymouth to Penzance (arriving seven hours late)

I then travelled back north the following Sunday
That HST suffered a similar fate up to Shap summit, with an incorrect AWS emergency brake application
Thankfully it only happened once

 

[Scott]

Whilst travelling as a passenger to get to my holiday I got recognised and roped into assisting on a 1V58 Edinburgh - Glasgow - Penzance HST on Sunday 09 August 1992
The Power Car suffered two AWS failures (it had already lost power before it arrived in Glasgow)

Even though the driver cancelled the AWS warning it would not release, resulting in the brakes applying and the train coming to a halt
I then sat in the rear cab, with the Fire Alarm bells ringing in the background as far as Barrhead, and as each emergency brake application was made as we passed each signal I then reset the brake valve
Finally just before pasing Barrhead both Power Cars were declared failures for other faults, and the set was looped into Platform 2 to allow other southbound services to pass
It took 40 minutes to find another loco, and we were eventually rescued two hours later with a pair of Class 26s (26005 and 26026), as far as Carlisle
The AWS system could not be repaired so the journey was completed using a variety of Class 47s, from Carlisle to Bristol, Bristol to Plymouth, and one final one from Plymouth to Penzance (arriving seven hours late)

I then travelled back north the following Sunday
That HST suffered a similar fate up to Shap summit, with an incorrect AWS emergency brake application
Thankfully it only happened once

From what you're saying, it seems that being a train driver is a lot more involved than I first thought. I knew that carrying out safety checks before journeys and taking trains to and from depots are part of the job, but I didn't know that things like this happen too. Also it sounds like AWS isn't reliable. :-?

 

[91101]

AWS - Advanced Warning System - on the approach to a restrictive aspect (red/yellow/double yellow) the driver will hear a horn noise, he must press a button to acknowledge that horn noise and that he knows the signal is going to be restrictive. If he is approaching a green signal, he will hear a bell, and needs to take no action.
As long as the driver acknowledges the alert he can do whatever he chooses.

TPWS - Train Protection and Warning System -basically is a track mounted piece of kit, that if the train goes over it when a signal is red will stop the train, within of a certain distance after the signal, there is still a major risk of something going wrong and said train being foul of soemthing he shouldn't.

m8internet, would care to elaborate further on exactly what you did for BR then? Driver? Guard? Head of Wireless Broadband Internet Connection Installation?

 

[rail-britain]

m8internet, would care to elaborate further on exactly what you did for BR then? Driver? Guard? Head of Wireless Broadband Internet Connection Installation?

BR didn't have Wireless Broadband in 1992, we we're only just lucky enough to have brick mobile phones and pager! So doesn't take much to work out what my grade was between 1990 and 1992

 

[hector673]

Scott,

Why don't you download BVE, then you will soon learn how to drive a train and what the AWS and TPWS do, if you don't push buttons at the right time, or ignore speed limits. It's the most realistic driver simulator and doesn't cost a penny, many real drivers aare involved in its development and testing. Head over to www.trainsimcentral.co.uk and just follow the instructions. Suggst you download the NWM route.

David

 

[Scott]

Scott,

Why don't you download BVE, then you will soon learn how to drive a train and what the AWS and TPWS do, if you don't push buttons at the right time, or ignore speed limits. It's the most realistic driver simulator and doesn't cost a penny, many real drivers aare involved in its development and testing. Head over to www.trainsimcentral.co.uk and just follow the instructions. Suggst you download the NWM route.

David

Thanks! I've been trying to find a good, free train simulator for ages now.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I can't run it because I use Windows Vista.

Ah well, the new version that works on vista is being developed currently, so thanks anyway.

 

[Mojo]

I can't run it because I use Windows Vista.

Ah well, the new version that works on vista is being developed currently, so thanks anyway.

Have a look at this thread for more information on running BVE4 under Vista.

 

[devon_metro]

AWS - Advanced Warning System - on the approach to a restrictive aspect (red/yellow/double yellow) the driver will hear a horn noise, he must press a button to acknowledge that horn noise and that he knows the signal is going to be restrictive. If he is approaching a green signal, he will hear a bell, and needs to take no action.
As long as the driver acknowledges the alert he can do whatever he chooses.

Not many "bell" sounds on AWS systems anymore. "Bing" is the new fashion

 

[Metroland]

Scott,

Why don't you download BVE, then you will soon learn how to drive a train and what the AWS and TPWS do, if you don't push buttons at the right time, or ignore speed limits. It's the most realistic driver simulator and doesn't cost a penny, many real drivers aare involved in its development and testing. Head over to www.trainsimcentral.co.uk and just follow the instructions. Suggst you download the NWM route.

David

Also worth looking at this site

http://www.railwayregister.care4free.net/becoming_a_train_driver.htm#TRAINING

 

[Scott]

Thanks Metroland. I'd actually read that site fully this week and it didn't half shock me. I thought you'd just apply, get accepted and then get put straight into the cab with an instructer to learn how to drive the train and the route.

However it does mention that they might be changing the way drivers are selected:

"There is a certain amount of dissatisfaction in the industry with the current psychometric assessment techniques and, to those of us who have been involved in driver training, the reasons aren't hard to fathom. I have seen many people who appear eminently fit to become train drivers unable to progress because they have not been able to pass the psychometrics. Equally, there have been a significant number of conductors who are very obviously unsuitable but who have been allowed to go forward for training simply because they have passed the tests. Some of these have then failed the driving assessments, but only after much time and expense. Worse still, some have passed and then their shortcomings have manifested themselves in a string of safety-of-line incidents, often resulting in their being sacked or taken out of the driving grade.

Because of this there are indications that a new system may be introduced. It is still very much at the development stage but it would probably be better aligned with the practical realities of train driving, perhaps using some kind of simulator. It is also suggested that, though the new system would still have the 'two-strikes-and-your-out' element, past failures under the existing system might not be taken into account. Maybe."

I'm quite pleased with that because I didn't like the look of the current psychometric assessment techniques.

 

[driver9000]

AWS actually stands for Automatic Warning System.

If the driver fails to cancel an AWS warning the brakes are indeed applied and since the addition of TPWS the 'Brake demand' lamp also flashes. The driver must press the AWS reset to start a 60 second time out of the TPWS (the lamp goes steady). During this time he must contact the controlling signalman and answer the questions he will ask the driver. Once he has been given authority to proceed he will probably have to have a quiet word with his driver manager.

TPWS consists of over-speed sensors which appear on the approach to certain speed restrictions and signals, if the train passes between the two grids too quickly the train is stopped, the Train-stop sensor at signals is designed to stop a train within the signals overlap (around 200yds) TPWS is not designed to prevent the SPAD but to mitigate against the outcome. Not all signals are fitted with TPWS stops.

Tripping the TPWS is treated more seriously than missing the AWS horn, and a SPAD is one of the ultimate mistakes a driver can make - a drivers first SPAD could be his last!!

 

[O L Leigh]

Missing the AWS is not a biggie.

The problem is when you get a brake demand because you receive an AWS caution at a location you are not expecting one, don't hear it and so fail to cancel. When this happens the driver looks around the cab and sees all indications normal except the TPWS brake demand light which is flashing. Of course this means a chat with the "Bobby" about the possibility of having had a SPAD, tripping over an overspeed sensor or having just suffered a "right side" TPWS failure and all the associated paperwork that such instances create. However, if you can tell the signaller that you received an AWS caution and were just not quite quick enough to cancel it before the brakes jammed on there will be no case to answer and you will be on your way again just as soon as the brakes come off (the time limit for this varies by class).

We're suffering just this sort of problem at the moment because of an intermittent suppression fault on an AWS magnet on the single-line section through Stansted Airport tunnel. Because of this fault, 'down' trains are receiving an AWS caution from the magnet for an 'up' signal just after they dive into the pipe. Because it's dark in there and quite noisy you don't always expect to hear it and, if you've got a window open or the AWS horn on that particular train is a bit quiet, you can easily miss it. A few of my colleagues have been caught out in just this way.

O L Leigh

 

[Bill EWS]

Scot, Playing BVE will not make you a driver but it will give you a good sense of what is required. BVE can only give an approximate idea of what's required because it is just a 'game', albeit a very good one, it doesn't contain everything a 'real' trian driver will require during basic training or experience once out driving. There are many Rules & Regulations to learn first and real-time train handling is quite a different experience from BVE.

The last think they will allow you to do is drive a train. You will go through weeks of basic training, loco and/or Unit training then a basic route knowledge to get you started and if you get through all that you will then be made driver. That is only the start of the learning curve that you will continue to learn for the rest of your driving career. You never stop learning. Anyone can just start driving trains on BVE with little or no knolwlege but don't drive a train on the real railway until you know what you are doing in the first place. There is no room for guessing.

Whatever you learn from BVE will most likely not come into your training as you think it may! They have their own working methods and routine during the classes that lead to the final stage. However, you will start to learn where the things BVE has taught you come in during the various stages. You don't need BVE to become a driver but it won't hurt you to learn from it. But don't start off thinking that just because you are good on BVE that you will walk through the training system That will lead you astray.

I enjoy BVE but that came after many years of being a train driver and understood BVE's limitations. They have become more realistic over the years and certainly contain all the signalling, loco & unit properties but as I am trying to point out, it can never be exactly like the 'driving' the real thing. I can still pick out anomilies in BVE.

Good luck and I hope you reach your desired goal.

BillEWS.

 

[Scott]

There are all sorts of reasons why these things happen, like distractions or slippery rails, or a poor brake, and again, unless the driver concerned deliberately set out to have a SPAD then usually it still wouldn't mean the sack!

Tripping the TPWS is treated more seriously than missing the AWS horn, and a SPAD is one of the ultimate mistakes a driver can make - a drivers first SPAD could be his last!!

Getting told different things here. D: Is confusing. :-? Although from them two quotes I guess a "spad with an excuse" is ok, but a spad without one isn't.

And thanks O L Leigh. I'm careful in real-life so I'd be looking at the colour of every single anyway, so I'd know when one is a yellow or double yellow so I wouldn't be caught out. :-P

Bill EWS - I'll give this BVE thing a go. Like you say, it won't teach me everything, but it'll teach me at least 1 thing and every bit of help I get is will increase my chances of getting the job. Also, I'd just like to congratulate you on landing one of the best jobs in england. Don't you dare come home grumpy.. just think of all those other people who want your job. :-P

 

[me123]

I can't say for certain, but I think it depends on the distance past the signal (ie, a 1m SPAD is OK given the overlap, but 250m is more serious and would certainly endanger lives). This based on a report of SPADs I saw somewhere, which took both into account. Most were no more than a few metres.

 

[Metroland]

Anything over the signal overlap is very dodgy (usually 200 meters, but may be a lot less in some areas) because potentially that can cause a crash. Very few SPADs are like that, especially now with TPWS.

 

[O L Leigh]

Scott: Don't get hung up on this. If you join the grade you will be taught everything you need to know and will be assessed on your knowledge at every stage. It takes months before you'll be allowed to get your hands on a real train and the best part of a year to complete your training.

SPAD's are treated seriously by the industry, even if you only creep a couple of feet past a shunt signal in the yard with an empty train. There are always lessons to be learned even if it is simply to pay closer attention to what you're doing. To say that "SPAD's = the sack" is not necessarily true. Generally speaking a driver who SPAD's will have an action plan to help prevent any repeat (it's the same with other incidents such as "failure to call"). However, there is a limit to the amount of help that can reasonably be offered. A driver that repeats the same mistake may eventually find themselves looking for alternative employment.

As for accidental SPAD's, all SPAD's would fit this description. There would be little mileage in claiming that a distraction, poor brake or low adhesion were the cause as a professional driver should be allowing for such things. If you're coming up to a red you focus on that to the exclusion of everything else (it's called Target Fixing in the industry jargon), and you should allow extra braking distance if you know you have a poor brake or suspect that you might encounter low adhesion. Of course there are rare exceptions to this which would show in the post-incident investigation, but the majority of SPAD's have more mundane causes.

O L Leigh

 

[Scott]

Scott: Don't get hung up on this. If you join the grade you will be taught everything you need to know and will be assessed on your knowledge at every stage. It takes months before you'll be allowed to get your hands on a real train and the best part of a year to complete your training.

Yeah I suppose. Thanks to all of you who've replied. I think I understand now, about how things such as the conditions and how far you've gone past the signal are all taken into account.

 

[adamp]

An interesting question, what would happen if you SPAD'd then stopped right close to a set of points and saw a train approaching in the distance going past a single yellow to go over the points, you would surely change reverser and go backwards to stop the oncoming train from clipping yours. But what if the brakes were still on ? is there any way of reseting the tpws once its been activated apart from the time limt...?

-Adam

 

[Tomnick]

If you'd stopped foul of a route already set for another train, then the driver of that would (in most cases!) be braking pretty heavily, having seen the protecting signal return to danger in front of him. I suspect that there'd be no time to start making a move back to the right side of the signal, but the rulebook certainly wouldn't allow you to do so! There's also the possibility of becoming derailed on the set of points that you've just run through?

 

[Aureol]

I'm careful in real-life so I'd be looking at the colour of every single anyway, so I'd know when one is a yellow or double yellow so I wouldn't be caught out. :-P

That's all well and good matey, but just remember that a signal may only be green/DY/SY at the time of passing, therefore you must stay alert and be prepared to encounter a red anywhere on the network, even after a green signal, as the signals could be reset by a signalman at anytime for whatever reason. I know this shouldn't happen, but it's always a possibility.

 

[Scott]

That's all well and good matey, but just remember that a signal may only be green/DY/SY at the time of passing, therefore you must stay alert and be prepared to encounter a red anywhere on the network, even after a green signal, as the signals could be reset by a signalman at anytime for whatever reason. I know this shouldn't happen, but it's always a possibility.

Surely if you pass it it won't change? :-? That would be a bit dangerous, because you could pass a green then 5 mins later it changes to a red, by which time it's too late.

 

[jopsuk]

Surely if you pass it it won't change? :-? That would be a bit dangerous, because you could pass a green then 5 mins later it changes to a red, by which time it's too late.

He means it's possible to pass a Green or Double Yellow and then encounter a
Red at the next signal. I'd be worried if you passed a signal and it DIDN'T change!

 

[Tomnick]

In most cases, the signal will be replaced to danger by the passage of the train, so it'll be showing red a matter of seconds after you've gone by . In all cases, it'll be back at danger before a route is set to it from the signal in rear, otherwise it'd be doing a pretty rubbish job of protecting your train.

However, Aureol's referring to (I suspect) the possibility of passing a green, and expecting at least a YY in the next signal. It's entirely possible that the next signal could have been replaced to danger, either in an emergency or in error. That's what you need to stay awake for!

 

[Scott]

In most cases, the signal will be replaced to danger by the passage of the train, so it'll be showing red a matter of seconds after you've gone by . In all cases, it'll be back at danger before a route is set to it from the signal in rear, otherwise it'd be doing a pretty rubbish job of protecting your train.

However, Aureol's referring to (I suspect) the possibility of passing a green, and expecting at least a YY in the next signal. It's entirely possible that the next signal could have been replaced to danger, either in an emergency or in error. That's what you need to stay awake for!

That couldn't happen, because the train wouldn't have enough time to slow down before passing the danger signal. D:

 

[Pumbaa]

That couldn't happen, because the train wouldn't have enough time to slow down before passing the danger signal. D:

That's because it's an emergency... Yes, it's meant to go G, YY, Y, R. But it could go straight to R at any time for any reason.