Gunman opens fire in Florida nightclub, many dead

[Bletchleyite]

The nightclub is presenting itself as a LGBT-friendly business and, as such, an attack on it is based on that.

No, it categorically is not.

The evidence is increasingly that in this specific case it was, but the nightclub being a LGBT nightclub categorically does not define the attack as homophobic. Only if the motive was against gay people etc does it make the attack homophobic.

ETA: I don't often have a lot of time for Owen Jones (indeed I've been blocked on Twitter by him for disagreeing with him about the competence of Ed Miliband) but actually, in this instance, I think he is right.

If someone blocks people on Twitter for disagreeing with them, whatever the issue, then that makes them look like a petulant child to me. You don't block, you discuss, or if that avenue has ceased you agree to disagree. Many people on here don't agree with me, but I don't block them. It's an indication of having lost an argument, unless there is some genuine abuse/bullying taking place, which disagreeing with him about the motive of an attack again categorically is not.
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Just watched it in detail, and I'm afraid I class him as somewhere between "professional victim" and "petulant child" having done so. The female presenter does slightly lose her rag at one point, but it seemed a fairly rational discussion with good points made on both sides until he said something like:

"If you're not gay you can't understand"

He would be right in saying something like "if you are not gay you can't have experienced this discrimination directly", but to suggest that someone who is not gay cannot understand the issues surrounding it is rather belittling at the very least.

After this he appeared to get increasingly angry and irrational, culminating in a short angry outburst with regard to Stonewall's involvement, then he walked out after being countered on that outburst.

Made him look very silly I'm afraid. And while I have little time for Sky News, preferring the BBC's less sensationalist approach, I can't see that their presenters did anything wrong.

 

[Strathclyder]

If you pre-meditate anything, your intentions are to affect a certain group of people.

If he walked into a synagogue it would be antisemitic.
If he walked into a mosque it would be islamophobic.

So why isn't this being accepted for what it is:
an anti-LGBT attack...

If it was purely aimed at the west he would have done it anywhere...

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From one young gay male to another, you hit the nail squarely on the head. Thank you.

 

[DarloRich]

does the label matter? Is the horror of the crime not enough?

 

[radamfi]

Julia Hartley-Brewer has form in saying controversial things on Sky News. Listeners to Iain Lee on talkRADIO will remember him telling the story of when he was on with her during the migrant crisis when a dead boy was washed on the beach. JHB said something reactionary and Iain was so incensed he was telling her how horrible a person she was off camera. Normally the paper reviewers only talk about the issues when they are actually on TV.

This behaviour gets her publicity and therefore further appearances on Sky News. She probably doesn't have many listeners to her talkRADIO show as she usually has no calls, so in view of that extra publicity can't do her much harm. I wouldn't be surprised if Iain Lee lays into her on his show tonight, despite them being colleagues on the station.

 

[Bletchleyite]

does the label matter? Is the horror of the crime not enough?

Precisely. Maybe it's because my generation weren't big on labelling, but I don't see this as all that significant at all.


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[Mag_seven]

I for one am getting sick of religion - it seems to masquerade as "good" but seems to dish out anything but. (this is not just about Islam, look at the crimes of Christians such as pedophile priests). So much for a "loving god"!

 

[Antman]

I wasn't aware of that incident, having done a quick google search, I learnt that he was a paranoid schizophrenic. Somehow I don't think his beloved Nazis would have valued Mr Copeland's life due to his mental state.

I don't think it is very helpful to have postmortem threads when bad things happen. It is all very well saying someone is "scum" but what good does it do? Until we program all human being at birth, we need to accept these events as part of life. We only really talk about the major incidents involving a lot of people but there are incidents with fewer people involved which are nevertheless as tragic for the people concerned. Bad things happen to good people on a minute by minute basis.

Very well put and I don't mean to sound flippant about what's happened but mass shootings in the USA barely raise an eyebrow, there will inevitably be another before long.

 

[Harbornite]

does the label matter? Is the horror of the crime not enough?

It's just that people are attempting to add context to it.
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Very well put and I don't mean to sound flippant about what's happened but mass shootings in the USA barely raise an eyebrow, there will inevitably be another before long.

Are you saying that Sandy Hook and Columbine didn't raise any eyebrows? I can tell you that you're mistaken.

 

[Antman]

It's just that people are attempting to add context to it.
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Are tou saying that Sandy Hook and Columbine didn't raise any eyebrows? I can tell you that you're mistaken.

And how exactly are you qualified to tell me that?

Yes there will be more upset if children are involved but we all know it will happen again.

 

[Johnuk123]

It's just that people are attempting to add context to it.
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Are tou saying that Sandy Hook and Columbine didn't raise any eyebrows? I can tell you that you're mistaken.

My wife is from Virginia and she takes little interest in US shootings any more, when this latest one was all over the news she was more interested in watching a film.

 

[Harbornite]

And how exactly are you qualified to tell me that?

Yes there will be more upset if children are involved but we all know it will happen again.

Your comment suggested that Sandy Hook didn't raise an eyebrow. The media coverage it received at the time suggested otherwise and even this year, Barack Obama was reduced to tears during a speech in which he recalled it. Also I should add that the San Bernandino shooting "raised eyebrows" and yet I don't remember there being any child victims.

 

[Antman]

Your comment suggested that Sandy Hook didn't raise an eyebrow. The media coverage it received at the time suggested otherwise and even this year, Barack Obama was reduced to tears during a speech in which he recalled it. Also I should add that the San Bernandino shooting "raised eyebrows" and yet I don't remember there being any child victims.

I was obviously talking about this side of the pond.

Until the gun culture changes over there these massacres will continue.

 

[Harbornite]

I was obviously talking about this side of the pond.

Until the gun culture changes over there these massacres will continue.

All of those incidents received coverage from British media outlets and changes are required, but bringing them about will not be popular, unfortunately.

 

[ExRes]

I for one am getting sick of religion - it seems to masquerade as "good" but seems to dish out anything but. (this is not just about Islam, look at the crimes of Christians such as pedophile priests). So much for a "loving god"!

Why are you blaming religion?, just because of media headlines I suppose, media headlines which are dished out with no reference to reality

As of now nobody knows why this man acted as he did, it is all just pure guesswork by those who want their cause or opinion given top billing

 

[Harbornite]

Why are you blaming religion?, just because of media headlines I suppose, media headlines which are dished out with no reference to reality

As of now nobody knows why this man acted as he did, it is all just pure guesswork by those who want their cause or opinion given top billing

Religion isn't the main cause, the issue is that some individuals choose to interpet religious teachings as a way of justifying these crimes. Whether or not the killer's homophobic views were inspired by his interpretation of Islamic teachings are unknown.

 

[southern442]

Not for the easily offended at all, but this video is interesting to watch, and a lot of key points and issues are raised:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sl0-GFX3BYg
Once again, I wouldn't recommend it for everyone as it is far from censored, and some controversial points made (The Amazing Atheist has built up a reputation), but maybe worth a watch as it is one of the only videos I have seen on youtube about the event that I can almost completely agree with.

 

[jon0844]

I remember chatting to someone in Germany last September about the increasing support for right wing groups in Europe and how it isn't crazy to think history could repeat itself.

Now I get the vibe that it could happen in the US too.

 

[Mag_seven]

Why are you blaming religion?, just because of media headlines I suppose, media headlines which are dished out with no reference to reality

As of now nobody knows why this man acted as he did, it is all just pure guesswork by those who want their cause or opinion given top billing

Well of course he could be a militant atheist but I doubt it.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Well of course he could be a militant atheist but I doubt it.

It's a bit chicken-and-egg really: does religion cause people to do this, or do people want to do this and use religion as a justification?

Most religious people don't go round shooting gays. But plenty of religious people are strongly against gay marriage, for instance. But equally plenty of non-religious people are homophobic; as I said, Copeland used the "master race" as his justification for murder.

 

[Gutfright]

If the stories about the gunman visiting the gay club many times before and getting drunk are true, then it does suggest, to me at least, that Mateen may have been motivated by his own issues with homosexuality and possibly his inability to reconcile his own homosexual desires with the retrograde beliefs of his Islamic culture.

 

[TheKnightWho]

We had hate preachers in Oxford today, using this massacre as "evidence" that God is punishing sinners.

Absolutely disgusting.
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If the stories about the gunman visiting the gay club many times before and getting drunk are true, then it does suggest, to me at least, that Mateen may have been motivated by his own issues with homosexuality and possibly his inability to reconcile his own homosexual desires with the retrograde beliefs of his Islamic culture.

Correct. The fact that the attack was launched in a place that was a known gay bar does make it a hate crime against LGBTQ people as well.

I would seriously doubt we'd see people saying that a gunman wasn't anti-Semitic if he opened fire in a synagogue, for example.

 

[Harbornite]

We had hate preachers in Oxford today, using this massacre as "evidence" that God is punishing sinners.

Absolutely disgusting.
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Correct. The fact that the attack was launched in a place that was a known gay bar does make it a hate crime against LGBTQ people as well.

I would seriously doubt we'd see people saying that a gunman wasn't anti-Semitic if he opened fire in a synagogue, for example.

Agreed. Did you see that interview with Owen Jones, by the way?

 

[Gutfright]

If, and I think this is the case, the Orlando shootings were carried out by a gay man whose culture made him feel unable to express his sexuality, then could this case be evidence of a link between mass shootings and sexual frustration?

 

[TheKnightWho]

Agreed. Did you see that interview with Owen Jones, by the way?

I did - I don't always agree with him, but he was absolutely right to walk out.

 

[Harbornite]

I did - I don't always agree with him, but he was absolutely right to walk out.

I missed it but he was justified to do that, to say that this attack wasn't homophobic (and terrorist, obviously) is wrong because the evidence we have suggests that was the motive.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

We had hate preachers in Oxford today, using this massacre as "evidence" that God is punishing sinners.

Were they making any comparisons to a far greater death toll in two cities that are mentioned in the Old Testament in Genesis 19 ?

 

[TheKnightWho]

Were they making any comparisons to a far greater death toll in two cities that are mentioned in the Old Testament in Genesis 19 ?

Not explicitly. More to the effect that God is punishing sinners, and they had a particular fixation with Leviticus 18:22.

Fortunately they got crowded out by students and townspeople, who came with LGBTQ flags, banners and one guy even had a trumpet.

At one point I asked them if they'd converted anyone, which they gave the usual "It doesn't matter if we only convert 1 person" sort of answer - said it all really. They were doing it for their own adrenaline rush and to kid themselves they were virtuous - not because it actually worked. I can't think of much more scummy than spreading hate for an ego trip.

 

[ExRes]

Various media outlets are reporting that he supposedly scouted Walt Disney World, particularly the shopping mall, a couple of months ago

There is, as yet, no definitive proof that the claim is true but, if it was, it would rather put a dampener on the claims the murders were down to homophobia

 

[Tetchytyke]

he supposedly scouted Walt Disney World...it would rather put a dampener on the claims the murders were down to homophobia

Not necessarily.

Disney is well known for being very LGBT-friendly, extending rights to LGBT employees long before it was mandatory or even popular. Also, and even more relevantly, Disney World hosts one of the world's largest Pride events every year. This is held on the first weekend in June (i.e. last weekend).

 

[DynamicSpirit]

I for one am getting sick of religion - it seems to masquerade as "good" but seems to dish out anything but. (this is not just about Islam, look at the crimes of Christians such as pedophile priests). So much for a "loving god"!

At the risk of taking this thread off-topic, that's not really fair. Across the UK there are hundreds of thousands of Christians who - if my experience of various churches is anything to go by - are inspired by their faith to raise money for all sorts of charities or to volunteer to do things like help the homeless. In my own area, one local church has been crucial in providing support for a local group that helps domestic violence victims, and works with offenders to get them to understand and modify their behaviour. Loads of aid in developing countries is provided as the result of efforts of Christian organizations. Although I have little direct experience of other religions, I see no reason to doubt that the same is true of other religions - including Islam.

But of course those efforts never make news headlines. And yes, on the other side many terrible crimes have been committed by people either working within religious organizations or claiming to be motivated by their religion. There doesn't seem to be any reason to doubt that these people form a tiny minority of those with religious beliefs.

In the end, it's very hard to tell to what extent these actions (both the good, and the bad) are influenced by religious teachings versus whether the people are using religion to provide a context for things that they would have done anyway. But it's certainly not correct to imply that religions only cause bad things, never good things.