Wales: facing a looming DMU crisis (esp. on the Valleys)

[Bletchleyite]

I know this is a long shot, but let's say that the 22 class 185's join the class 175's doing the express services in Wales replacing the class 158's. Could the class 150's/143's etc... be replaced by adding extra trains to the new CAF built DMU's being built for Northern?

Possibly, but would that make sense if wiring the Valleys is likely?

 

[RobShipway]

Possibly, but would that make sense if wiring the Valleys is likely?

Possibly not, but until there is confirmation that the Valley's will be electrified then you have top presume it is the status quo with DMU power being used whether it is new DMU power or from DMU trains built in the late 1980's to early 1990's replacing class 143/144/150.

 

[PHILIPE]

185s, remaining based in Manchester, covering principal services from there to Holyhead and Cardiff, plus Holyhead to Cardiff, alongside 175s would seem logical. Some 2-car 175s used to displace 150s and 153s from North Wales with the 150s heading to the Valleys and no longer seen on any long distance services, for which they are not suited. 175s on the Bidstons might seem a bit of a waste, but it would keep the Chester-based 175s up north and eliminate the need to have some north-south services with 150s in order to get them up there. 175s replacing 158s on the Brum-Holyheads would allow for more capacity on the Cambrian and perhaps 158s on the Central Wales line, which would be covered by these Mach/Shrewsbury based units as opposed to the current CF 150/153s.

158s cannot work over the Heart of Wales in passenger service due to some tight platform clearances. They can, however, work as ECS or attached to 150/153 empty and with air bags deflated.

 

[158722]

158s cannot work over the Heart of Wales in passenger service due to some tight platform clearances. They can, however, work as ECS or attached to 150/153 empty and with air bags deflated.

Ah yes, forgot that detail... And 175s?

 

[PHILIPE]

Ah yes, forgot that detail... And 175s?

OK apart from Down Platform at Llandovery. They have worked over there but not recently. 2007, I think, when a major signalling Occupation on the SWML overran by 4 days. The HOWL was the only route units trapped in West Wales could escape by for fuelling and Maintenance. There were combos of 150s, 153s and 158s (locked out of use) coupled. A 175 worked from Shrewsbury a couple of years to Llandrindod Wells but changed over trains at the crossing point here and went back.

 

[MatthewRead]

They could reinstate loco hauled trains on the Ryhmney line

 

[Hophead]

I wouldn't get too excited about Valleys electrification any time soon.

3 years ago, this was a great idea - a scheme in a concentrated geographical area displacing a large number of obsolete and unpopular units. Now that we are bumping up against the 2020 deadline and nothing's been done, the urgent requirement now is to get upgraded trains of any sort in and quickly. That investment will have to be paid for, which is almost certain to see wires postponed till the late 2020s at best.

 

[PHILIPE]

They could reinstate loco hauled trains on the Ryhmney line

The usual kneejerk reaction by many people is to say go with more LHCS but, even so there may be suitable stock lying around it is easier said than done. Crew training has to be done, leasing and higher track access charges and costs incurred. Also the practicability of operating in some places, running round facilities if no DVTs can be made available.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

The usual kneejerk reaction by many people is to say go with more LHCS but, even so there may be suitable stock lying around it is easier said than done. Crew training has to be done, leasing and higher track access charges and costs incurred. Also the practicability of operating in some places, running round facilities if no DVTs can be made available.

Routes unsuitable for LHCS are likely to also be less than ideal for 185s (which suffer many of the restrictions you mention) but any routes which are ideal for LHCS would therefore be a suitable home for the 22 class 185 units that will be released from their current duties. Manchester to both North and South Wales would be the obvious cases, given their home depot at Ardwick.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Routes unsuitable for LHCS are likely to also be less than ideal for 185s (which suffer many of the restrictions you mention) but any routes which are ideal for LHCS would therefore be a suitable home for the 22 class 185 units that will be released from their current duties. Manchester to both North and South Wales would be the obvious cases, given their home depot at Ardwick.

That is a very good point. Then 175s could remain on the non-Manchester North Wales Coast services but always doubled up to give proper train lengths of 4, 5 and 6 coaches. They do need a proper refurb first, though, they have got *properly* tatty. Might also be a good idea to fit some decent First Class.

 

[JohnElliott]

Given a couple of long-running topics on this forum, it's obviously with the deepest sincerity that I suggest: if the lines can't be overhead-electrified in time, drop in a juice rail and run cascaded 313s. Or even better, 442s.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Given a couple of long-running topics on this forum, it's obviously with the deepest sincerity that I suggest: if the lines can't be overhead-electrified in time, drop in a juice rail and run cascaded 313s. Or even better, 442s.

If we need some LHCS, then... I wondered how long it'd take!

 

[notlob.divad]

Add to this we don't actually have a clue what the w&b franchise will look like post 2018. There are still discussions on this forum about what services will be franchised from Cardiff and what if any will remain with the dft. I appreciate the valleys and see suburban metro services will likely be from Cardiff, but services to and from Manchester/ shrewsberry / Birmingham may not.

Yes units will still be needed to cover the services but the home depots and thus the stock that is used may shift around a bit more than would be expected from a normal refranchising

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Was there once a proposal to convert the Valley Lines to a modern tramway/light rail entity?

 

[krus_aragon]

Looking at the Valley Lines network, the routes where 230s low speed limit might be an issue are Maesteg (if run via the main line rather than via Rhoose) and Cardiff to Ebbw Vale, along with Gloucester services if these are interworked. If 230s were used on those routes that are suitable then some diagrams might need to be altered to avoid them getting in the way of faster services but I wouldn't have thought that was insurmountable. There should be enough 75mph stock to cover routes such as Maesteg, Ebbw Vale and Swanline.

As things currently stand, Maesteg, Ebbw and Swanline services are diagrammed separately to the Valleys Services that run through Queen St. If they continue to be so, one could use 60mph stock of the Queen St diagrams only with little repercussion.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Was there once a proposal to convert the Valley Lines to a modern tramway/light rail entity?

It's part of the nebulous ideas for the Cardiff Area Metro. Most ideas are centred on converting the Bay branch to light rail, but some advocates suggest the City line, or even more.

 

[childwallblues]

Arriva Trains North may have a few units spare as electrification spreads across the North West/Yorkshire.

 

[158722]

Arriva Trains North may have a few units spare as electrification spreads across the North West/Yorkshire.

As has already been mentioned a few times...

A motley collection of 79x 142s (for withdrawal) and 23x 144s and 22x 153s (balance from Northern and GWR) during the course the current franchise.

 

[northwichcat]

Arriva Trains North may have a few units spare as electrification spreads across the North West/Yorkshire.

Northern's December 2019 train plan requires all the 150s, 155s, 156s and 158s currently in the fleet plus the 150s GWR are releasing, the 158s and 170s Scotrail are releasing and all but 5 of the 156s which Scotrail are releasing.

That leaves the 142s, 144s and 153s (except the 1 x 153 going to EMT) plus 5 of the Scotrail 156s, the GWR 143s and 153s and 22 x 185s from TPE.

 

[edwin_m]

175s to be used, in 3 and 4-car formations, on other Welsh express services except the Cambrian Coast where 158s would have to remain

The Cambrian ERTMS issue won't be around for ever. As ERTMS spreads elsewhere, other classes will have to be fitted with the necessary equipment and will then be able to operate on the Cambrian too (subject to gauging or any other issues that might apply).

Remaining 175s and 158s to Northern in exchange for 150s.

I can't see Northern wanting to do this swap. Their 150s are mainly going to end up on secondary suburban services for which the 175 and 158 have the wrong door layout and various unnecessary features that increase their leasing/operating costs. For rural services not using the new CAF units, a 156 will be the most suitable or failing that one of the 158s Northern will already have. There's also the extra crew training to run yet another class of unit, not one that has been renowned for high reliability in the past.

 

[PHILIPE]

The Cambrian ERTMS issue won't be around for ever. As ERTMS spreads elsewhere, other classes will have to be fitted with the necessary equipment and will then be able to operate on the Cambrian too (subject to gauging or any other issues that might apply).



I can't see Northern wanting to do this swap. Their 150s are mainly going to end up on secondary suburban services for which the 175 and 158 have the wrong door layout and various unnecessary features that increase their leasing/operating costs. For rural services not using the new CAF units, a 156 will be the most suitable or failing that one of the 158s Northern will already have. There's also the extra crew training to run yet another class of unit, not one that has been renowned for high reliability in the past.

It won't be up to Northern to decide. They could object but the decision is that of the DFT.

 

[northwichcat]

It won't be up to Northern to decide. They could object but the decision is that of the DFT.

DfT claim they let TOCs make their own decisions with ROSCOs now, hence why the two class 170 fiascoes exist. With Northern and TPE they tried to prevent such fiascoes by saying Northern could only take on class 15xs or 17xs which other franchises are planning to release opposed to ones which are available because the lease ends on the franchise end date.

 

[D365]

With Northern and TPE they tried to prevent such fiascoes by saying Northern could only take on class 15xs or 17xs which other franchises are planning to release opposed to ones which are available because the lease ends on the franchise end date.

The two franchises which, ironically, lost out through the Chiltern 170 fiasco.

 

[james60059]

Are LHCs cleared for West Wales? Using those between Carmarthen and Pembroke would free up a 153 or two.

I remember loco-haulage to Fishguard Harbour, use to travel either going to see family in Ireland via the ferry from Fishguard or if I fancied a days bash.

Loco haulage to Fishguard would no longer be possible now though as the run round loop was taken up a couple years ago, unless of course they were top n tailed or a DVT/DBSO.

 

[Chester1]

I remember loco-haulage to Fishguard Harbour, use to travel either going to see family in Ireland via the ferry from Fishguard or if I fancied a days bash.

Loco haulage to Fishguard would no longer be possible now though as the run round loop was taken up a couple years ago, unless of course they were top n tailed or a DVT/DBSO.

Thats what ATW do with their existing loco hauled stock. The issue with the stock for the next franchise not a shortage of long distance stock. The next franchise can obtain enough reformed 2 coach 153s (i.e. 155s) for the Heart of Wales line etc and the 158s will stay. 185s and or loco hauled Mark IIIs from GWR and ECML can be used to make sure every long distance service is at least 3 coaches.

The issue post 2020 is routes currently served by pacers. ATW currently has 15 x 142s and 15 x 143s (all two car). If GWRs 8 x 143s and Northerns 23 x 144s (10 are 3 car units) then there would be plenty of new capacity despite disablity upgrades reducing seats per coach from 50+ to 40. All the 2 car units could be doubled up effectively creating 18 160 seat units + 10 120 seat units. Alternatively a similiar number of D stock could be bought. Both are politically toxic, although pacers more so than D Stock, which would suit a metro service better.

 

[Bletchleyite]

If you fitted 3-car D78s with bay seating in the end vehicles but left the side-facing seating as-is in the centre coach, say, you would have a vehicle that was very pleasant for quiet services but would equally handle heavy loads very well at busy times.

 

[northwichcat]

ATW currently has 15 x 142s and 15 x 143s (all two car). If GWRs 8 x 143s and Northerns 23 x 144s (10 are 3 car units) then there would be plenty of new capacity despite disablity upgrades reducing seats per coach from 50+ to 40. All the 2 car units could be doubled up effectively creating 18 160 seat units + 10 120 seat units. Alternatively a similiar number of D stock could be bought. Both are politically toxic, although pacers more so than D Stock, which would suit a metro service better.

The middle cars of the 3 car 144s probably don't need to lose any seats.

If you used the extra sets to provide more frequent services maybe you'd get away with the trains having no toilets and probably no real reduction in seating capacity?

 

[Chester1]

If you fitted 3-car D78s with bay seating in the end vehicles but left the side-facing seating as-is in the centre coach, say, you would have a vehicle that was very pleasant for quiet services but would equally handle heavy loads very well at busy times.

I agree. I wish they would just make their mind up. The biggest issue facing either D stock or e pacers is payback time. I believe e pacers would need 10 years of service to make it worth while for Porterbrook but Vivarail would need 15 years for D Stock. I think this actually increases the chances of D Stock being used. No one at Westminster or Cardiff Bay is going to sign off delaying Valleys electrification by more than 10 years or using them on another franchise past 2026 so the upgrades would need to begin ASAP. 30-40 D Stock units could be built nearer to the 2020 deadline and there are enough rural routes around the UK were the 60mph limit wouldn't be an issue so DfT could agree to cascade them after valleys line electrifcation until the 15 years are up.

 

[northwichcat]

30-40 D Stock units could be built nearer to the 2020 deadline and there are enough rural routes around the UK were the 60mph limit wouldn't be an issue so DfT could agree to cascade them after valleys line electrifcation until the 15 years are up.

Ideally a fleet of that size would be maintained by a single TOC or at most 2 x TOCs. Getting LM to use 5 and Anglia to use another 5 etc. would cause a lot of headaches.

 

[507021]

Arriva Trains North may have a few units spare as electrification spreads across the North West/Yorkshire.

I would have thought ARN's diesel powered units released by electrification will be used to strengthen their own services on non-electrified routes.

 

[northwichcat]

I would have thought ARN's diesel powered units released by electrification will be used to strengthen their own services on non-electrified routes.

As has been mentioned the 142s, 144s and 153s are leaving the Northern fleet. The GWR 150/1s, LM 150/1s and some Scotrail 156s, 158s and 170s will join the new CAF DMUs as new additions to the fleet.

There's also 36 additional diesel carriages arriving post-2019 which are rumoured to be 150/2s currently used by GWR.