Southern DOO: ASLEF members vote 79.1% for revised deal

[hwl]

Not disagreeing with you at all. The problem appears to be the DfT believes they can get someone cheaper to do the ticket sales bit and they don't need someone to do the safety related bit. Yes I know initially the OBS won't be cheaper as they'll be converted conductors, but in time they will be cheaper.

Incidentally on this note has there been a reduction in revenue protection officers over the years? Used to see them maybe once or twice a month, now never see them.

With more gating on stations the revenue blocks seem to be far more targeted (with BTP in tow as well) but revenue staff do seem to have dropped over the years.

 

[tony6499]

Not sure how you embed an article perhaps a mod will help but from todays Guardian

http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/jun/06/union-says-it-has-proof-southern-railway-lied-about-cancelled-services

 

[craigy68]

With more gating on stations the revenue blocks seem to be far more targeted (with BTP in tow as well) but revenue staff do seem to have dropped over the years.

Regular random station blocks were a good thing, and I believe acted as a good deterrent.

The new concept of more manned gate lines, manned by a single station host, who has the responsibility for ticketing, cleaning, assisting, accounting (the list goes on) and the remote operation of platform 1/2 barriers, I believe, will have the opposite effect.

A team of 4 or 5 on revenue block against one member of staff on gate line ... I for one won't be getting into any arguments ... Gate open, off you go sir !!!!

 

[XDM]

The Guardian article seems fair - reflecting both sides view points.
Glad RMT was not pumping out all that 'Foreign owned excess bloated capitalist' drivel. But perhaps the Guardian edited that out of the RMT quote.

 

[LAX54]

Excellently put.

If only the RMT put that out as a potential scenario then they might get somewhere.

Signaller has no idea.... apart from at least one DSD alarm sounding in the box, trippings of the electrical supply, tracks possibly showing occupied ?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

What, the unknowing driver suffering a self evacuation after a fire when a kid was killed by a train on the adjacent line?

Ladies and gentlemen, DOO.

Signaller as much to blame on that one too !

 

[hwl]

Regular random station blocks were a good thing, and I believe acted as a good deterrent.

The new concept of more manned gate lines, manned by a single station host, who has the responsibility for ticketing, cleaning, assisting, accounting (the list goes on) and the remote operation of platform 1/2 barriers, I believe, will have the opposite effect.

A team of 4 or 5 on revenue block against one member of staff on gate line ... I for one won't be getting into any arguments ... Gate open, off you go sir !!!!

My local is gated for most of the day (will be going all day) but "the random" revenue blocks (8-10 SN + BTP) are done as loads of passengers try to bypass the gates by using the disabled side entrance or the at the times when the gates aren't manned. The person on the gate line doesn't seem to get any trouble with both ends of most journeys now being gated, initially it required 2 on the gate line to convey the right message (ex-Gurkha + a stereotypically night club bouncer sized person).

 

[Carlisle]

No, I'm saying that we shouldn't be deliberately taking a backward step safety wise, which is exactly what this is.

I can perhaps in future see some kind of emergency device on DOO services where passengers could contact the signalmen/control in a serious/emergency situation being fitted

 

[Haywain]

The idea that passengers will sit and wait to be told what the problem is when their train stops in the middle of nowhere is fanciful - in today's world of social media people are on Twitter and the like pretty much as soon as a train stops (and often before).

 

[TheEdge]

I can perhaps in future see some kind of emergency device on DOO services where passengers could contact the signalmen/control in a serious/emergency situation being fitted

Two points.

Firstly something like that would be abused just as much as passcoms are today and cause all sorts of problems. You also get another piece of equipment to fail and cancel a train.

Secondly. What are they going to say? They don't know where they are, even what train they are on, telling a signaler you are on the 2116 from Haywards Heath is useless for emergency comms, they need a headcode. What type of incident. Where did it occur? All this detail that is needed.

Or, here is a wild idea. Rather than creating complex solutions for a problem that doesn't exist by removing a trained member of staff we could just leave said member of staff in place.

 

[gimmea50anyday]

With more gating on stations the revenue blocks seem to be far more targeted (with BTP in tow as well) but revenue staff do seem to have dropped over the years.

Toc' revenue comes from the farebox,l. But as any shortfall comes from DfT just as any over earnings has to be paid back so theres no incentive to protect the revenue. Perhaps an independant revenue protection force withh full PACE authority and none of this "free to walk away" bollocks and the ability to pool together and share intel to identify trends and repeat offenders etc would be of far more benefit to the railway as a whole. The income from pen fares and prosecutions would pay for the barriers and staff several times over

 

[Wolfie]

Clearly there is a disadvantage, but as I understand it, the duty is to make reasonable adjustments for disabled people. As you know "All rail vehicles must comply with accessibility standards, or have an appropriate exemption in place, by no later than 1 January 2020." If there were other requirements I believe they would have been stated in the Act.

You are correct. Of course there are VERY strong arguments, which I suspect (based on my own work experience) the Courts would love to hear, that a company making adjustments which actually make it more difficult for disabled people to use a service is FAR from "reasonable". Existing DOO set-ups were there in the main prior to passage of the Act. I really hope that someone has the nouce to involve the Equality Commission immediately.

Excellent post.

Social media now being looked into? They really will stop at nothing.
It's literally an attitude of do as you are told, do not question and do not moan or the door is there.

I'm fully aware we all have social media policies that need to be followed but everyone has a right to an opinion. I should think everyone who has read this thread has made up their minds about southern one way or the other.

I definitely have a view..

I think Charles Horton would struggle to find paid employment anywhere but in railway management. The sooner that his current employment is terminated, the better it will be for the rail industry, his current employer and their employees.

Good luck Mr Horton's inquistion in finding a way to punish me...thankfully I do not work, and never have worked, for the organisation being destroyed by that pretentious pillock!

I have seen some on here express a desire for bad things to happen to him and his colleagues. While I don't wish that I do find it completely understandable when he and his colleagues are behaving like the worst type of bullies and destroying people's careers.

 

[ungreat]

What, the unknowing driver suffering a self evacuation after a fire when a kid was killed by a train on the adjacent line?

Ladies and gentlemen, DOO.

Havent seen this...any links available?

 

[XDM]

Why on earth do you allow this squalid unpleasant stuf from Wolfie onto the site. Those of us who are interested, want facts not cruel ranting. I hope to goodness he does not work on our railways with that aggressive violent attitude to people,who would be at his mercy as passengers.

 

[AntoniC]

Why on earth do you allow this squalid unpleasant stuf from Wolfie onto the site. Those of us who are interested, want facts not cruel ranting. I hope to goodness he does not work on our railways with that aggressive violent attitude to people,who would be at his mercy as passengers.

If you dont like his post report it by using the report button.

He is entitled to his opinion as much as you are.

 

[Flamingo]

Why on earth do you allow this squalid unpleasant stuf from Wolfie onto the site. Those of us who are interested, want facts not cruel ranting. I hope to goodness he does not work on our railways with that aggressive violent attitude to people,who would be at his mercy as passengers.

It's YOUR railway?

Hmmmm, now who was it who got into trouble recently for calling it "my railway" (in a speech where he was wrong on almost every other point as well...)

 

[Wolfie]

Why on earth do you allow this squalid unpleasant stuf from Wolfie onto the site. Those of us who are interested, want facts not cruel ranting. I hope to goodness he does not work on our railways with that aggressive violent attitude to people,who would be at his mercy as passengers.

The last sentence was perhaps unnecessary, and thus I have deleted it, albeit that it accurately reflected my personal feelings. I cannot and will not respect anyone who behaves like the worst sort of bully, who is destroying people's careers and resorts to grotesquely Goebelsesque propaganda. It is particularly ironic that that individual was heavily involved in one of the worst ever franchises, namely CONNEX.....

Much of the rest of this site is comprised of personal thoughts and feelings (it is implicit in fora in general), why exactly are mine less valid (unless of course you are Mr Horton and I have hurt your feelings, in which case tango foxtort lima)?

For the record I will repeat something which I have said several times on this site, namely that I do not work, and indeed have never worked, on the railway.

It's YOUR railway?

Hmmmm, now who was it who got into trouble recently for calling it "my railway" (in a speech where he was wrong on almost every other point as well...)

Hahaha...love it!

 

[Mintona]

Why on earth do you allow this squalid unpleasant stuf from Wolfie onto the site. Those of us who are interested, want facts not cruel ranting. I hope to goodness he does not work on our railways with that aggressive violent attitude to people,who would be at his mercy as passengers.

Hi Peter!

 

[speedy_sticks]

Why on earth do you allow this squalid unpleasant stuf from Wolfie onto the site. Those of us who are interested, want facts not cruel ranting. I hope to goodness he does not work on our railways with that aggressive violent attitude to people,who would be at his mercy as passengers.

I support the Wolf.

You try being in a wheelchair for just one week trying to get to places spontaneously under a DOO service and see how you would cope.

I shall give you a day max I bet until you crack.

 

[tony6499]

Why on earth do you allow this squalid unpleasant stuf from Wolfie onto the site. Those of us who are interested, want facts not cruel ranting. I hope to goodness he does not work on our railways with that aggressive violent attitude to people,who would be at his mercy as passengers.

I wonder if you're a manager on GTR or work for DfT but it is obvious what you are

 

[radamfi]

I wonder if you're a manager on GTR or work for DfT but it is obvious what you are

So if he's a manager his opinion on a forum is not valid?

 

[Wolfie]

So if he's a manager his opinion on a forum is not valid?

I for one have (unlike him towards me) never expressed the slightest comment over the validity or otherwise of XDM's opinion and I hope others take the same stance. I take the view (within constraints of legality and decency) ascribed to Voltaire, but actually written by Elizabeth Beatrice Hall, namely "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it".

 

[ComUtoR]

Just watch the latest Red video, the one that's now banned.

It's not banned. I just watched it.

Signaller as much to blame on that one too !

I can see that point. It is a typical Signaller response when we get a passcom and I understand why and that the Signaller also has to adhere to various procedures. It is a very disjointed relationship between Driver and Signaller.

Ladies and gentlemen, DOO.

A nightmare scenario came true. We scream about safety over and over again but the rhetoric is that DOO is safe. Fires on trains are shockingly regular. Us who work DOO and are very much against it see this exact situation and do not want it to ever occur again or anything similar. We see that a second person onboard could have made a difference and another death could have been prevented.

We do see the horror situations on a regular basis and have to sit through various safety briefings where incidents such as this and many others are discussed at length.

I wish people could see it from our side, but then again, I wish they couldn't.

 

[mbreckers]

I support the Wolf.

You try being in a wheelchair for just one week trying to get to places spontaneously under a DOO service and see how you would cope.

I shall give you a day max I bet until you crack.

I am not a wheelchair user myself, but companion my friend, who is wheelchair bound.

Even with me there, it is still extremely stressful using the railway network. There is always the worry that you wont get on the train, staff wont turn up with the ramp, bikes chained to the wheelchair space etc.

I can understand why wheelchair users avoid public transport where possible.

 

[ungreat]

It's not banned. I just watched it.

Can it be viewed online?

 

[ComUtoR]

Yes, I viewed it online.

I'm not sure if they are publicly available

 

[tony6499]

So if he's a manager his opinion on a forum is not valid?

Of course it is valid where did I say it isn't ?

 

[ungreat]

Yes, I viewed it online.

I'm not sure if they are publicly available

I tried Opsweb but i havent got a work email

 

[XDM]

It is devious to end your post,after a lot of cruel insults,by saying you would back anyone who beat the MD of a major rail company in a dark alley way,& then after it had shocked people who read it,including myself who condemned your brutal remarks, to remove the offending last line so my post looks like an overreaction. I am glad you removed it,but the filth has been spread over this normally very good site.
I imagine Mr Horton is trying to run the railway as well as he can & DOO has been widely used since a quarter of a century ago,world wide. I don't expect even the collective of red flag wavers would have applauded seeing the man who removed them from walking in front of locos 2 century's ago being beaten to a pulp. Glad to hear you don't work on our railway.

 

[infobleep]

Whilst it's the underground, I can see parallels with the GTR dispute. Perhaps GTR would like to order some S stock for their DOO operation!

It's perfectly safe and if not then it's the passengers falt for using their mobile or being intoxicated. I don't know if the three year old girl rushed. Perhaps that's the falt of the adult(s) with her.

The argument a from RMT are well put for a change.

Mind the gap: New Tube trains blamed for huge rise in passenger accidents

New Tube trains were today blamed for a dramatic increase in the number of passengers falling into the platform gap at stations.

A total of 307 incidents were recorded last year, three times the number before the £1.5 billion walk-through fleet was introduced on the Metropolitan, Circle, Hammersmith & City and District lines.

The problem is worst at Baker Street, where 52 people — one a week — fell last year. Blue warning lights have been introduced to alert passengers to the bigger gap between train and platform.

Transport for London today admitted problems were exacerbated by making the new S-stock trains level with the platform to improve wheelchair access.

This widens the gap at stations with curved platforms, such as the Metropolitan line platforms at Baker Street. Prior to the introduction of the new trains, no more than five people a year fell into the gap at Baker Street.

Last year a three-year-old girl fell into the gap as she tried to board a northbound Met line train while her carer was not looking. The terrified child was pulled to safety by fellow passengers.

The RMT is demanding an investigation after a woman got her foot trapped between the platform and a Jubilee line train at Canning Town during the morning rush-hour two weeks ago.

In March last year a 28-year-old woman was pulled onto the tracks at Clapham South after her coat got caught in a train door. Witnesses said she had been forced to step off the train because it was too busy. She suffered head and arm injuries.

There have also been long-standing problems on the Bakerloo line, due to large gaps between trains and platforms, especially at Waterloo. Prior to the introduction of S-stock trains, there were about 90 to 100 falls down the gap a year. These increased to 119 in 2010, 123 in 2011, 154 in 2012, 224 in 2013, 300 in 2014 and 307 last year.

Last year 288 were reported, three times the number when data was first recorded in 2003. Tube unions suspect increased overcrowding is also to blame.

Finn Brennan, Aslef district organiser, said: “There has been a particular problem at Baker Street as the design of the new S-stock trains meant an increased gap between the train and the platform and led to more incidents of people falling between them. Embankment and Finchley Road have similar issues.

“These figures demonstrate the pressure that train drivers and other staff are operating under as levels of overcrowding increase. It is only their professionalism that has meant many more people have not been seriously injured or killed when these incidents happen.”

The RMT union claimed the recent Canning Town incident “exposed the growing problem of overcrowding”.

General secretary Mick Cash said: “RMT receives regular reports of Tube overcrowding reaching dangerous levels and that situation is getting worse as more and more passengers pile into services that are already running flat out. Cutting back on the platform and station staff who manage emergencies is a reckless and lethal gamble with passenger safety.”

S-Stock trains were introduced to the Metropolitan line in 2010, the Circle and Hammersmith & City lines in 2012 and are being introduced to the District line.

The number of journeys on the Tube has risen by more than a third since 2003. Last December a record 4.8 million passengers were carried in one day.

TfL was unable to provide details of injuries sustained by passengers but said the falls were caused by “distraction from use of smartphones, rushing [and] intoxication”.

It admitted the new trains had increased the size of some platform gaps. A spokesman said: “Before the introduction of new trains, each platform is individually risk assessed and ways to mitigate any incidents are regularly reviewed, such as the adjustment of platform nosing stones to realign how the trains stand at the platform.”

Steve White, London Underground’s operations director, said: “While the Tube is rightly recognised as one of the safest metros in the world, we are not complacent and are working hard to further minimise accidents and injuries.

“This includes introducing flashing blue lights to draw attention to the gap at Baker Street, adjusting platform edges to narrow gaps at some stations and encouraging customers to take care getting on and off trains.”

http://www.standard.co.uk/news/tran...uge-rise-in-passenger-accidents-a3264531.html

Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk

 

[ComUtoR]

I tried Opsweb but i havent got a work email

I've had a look about and can't find any public resources.