Southern DOO: ASLEF members vote 79.1% for revised deal

[sarahj]

I'm going to standing back from this thread for a bit. All sorts of rumors flying around at the mo. I will still be watching.

 

[infobleep]

I'm going to standing back from this thread for a bit. All sorts of rumors flying around at the mo. I will still be watching.

I'd you don't mind me asking, bad rumours or good rumours?

Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk

 

[PakRail]

If you are working for GTR or know someone who is than this is a really depressing time indeed. I have been keeping up with events and refraining from making too many comments. All I can say is this DOO debacle both at GTR and ScotRail is making me hurt. To see the industry I love changing so drastically is a shock.

The treatment of the staff is nothing short of bullying and GTR know that they can get away with it as they will eventually break the guards. The recent injunction against ASLEF delays their strike action even more. This coupled with the GTR PR machine trudging outnon a daily basis that delays and cancellations are all the fault of the Guards being sick makes working in or near GTR a toxic environment. We all know that without ASLEF driver support the RMT guards are in a dire situation.

I can only hope and pray for the best as I and many others prepare ourselves for the worst.

 

[Antman]

And how often does that happen? Most of the time a train is cancelled because there is no Guard is not down to the Guard not being there, it is often down to either rostering errors, delays where the Guard is in a different location,very few of these are actually down to Guard not being on duty.

Perhaps the same could be said when a train is cancelled because there is no driver, yet i dont see anyone wanting rid of them (yet anyway), and see the train sitting there in the platform with the Guard!

It happens quite a lot on Southeastern!

Ashford to Victoria train recently and no guard for whatever reason, driver is instructed to run ECS to Maidstone East where he should be met by a guard travelling by road from Gillingham. Must have been great for passengers at the intermediate stations to watch their 'cancelled' train go hurtling through!

 

[ComUtoR]

It happens quite a lot on Southeastern!

Dare I say it but... No it doesn't

 

[Robertj21a]

That's the difficult thing when you're involved isn't it - it's rather hard to express just how upset and angry it makes you feel. I can't accurately put in any other terms the feeling I get when I see DOO bandied about every day of my life because 1) it means my work is effectively without purpose and irrelevant and 2) it means I could lose everything I've worked hard for, entirely down to the machinations of individuals like these. I can't go a single day without hearing something about these plans whether I'm working or away because it's constantly in the news. I'm having to hear how destroyed my colleagues are and how little their management care for them as individual human beings.

With the tactics in play and the conscious decisions they've made I'm hardly going to wish them well in all their endeavours, am I? They choose to act this way.

The last time I was so upset by something on an ongoing basis was when I last lost a close relative.

I would absolutely love the moral high ground, really I would, but given I seem to have no power to do anything about it what else can I do but strike out?

I don't know what else you can do - we're all different in how we deal with issues. All I would say is that this later post from you is far more likely to receive understanding and empathy from others who read it than if you had stayed in 'death wish' mode.

 

[tony6499]

It was expected to stop at East Croydon anyway.

How does a train running fast to Redhill stop at East Croydon ?

 

[bengley]

How does a train running fast to Redhill stop at East Croydon ?

Fast as in London Bridge, East Croydon, Redhill instead of

London Bridge, New Cross Gate, Norwood Junction, East Croydon, Purley, Coulsdon South, Merstham and Redhill

 

[LowLevel]

I don't know what else you can do - we're all different in how we deal with issues. All I would say is that this later post from you is far more likely to receive understanding and empathy from others who read it than if you had stayed in 'death wish' mode.

All I can say is when I read things from folks down south about how they're being treated, is that I want to sit and cry. It doesn't get any more raw than that. Forget the RMT and their rubbish about France and profits. I'm not far off the end of my tether. I know of men that killed themselves when the mines shut round here and I know why.

 

[tony6499]

Fast as in London Bridge, East Croydon, Redhill instead of

London Bridge, New Cross Gate, Norwood Junction, East Croydon, Purley, Coulsdon South, Merstham and Redhill

Fast normally means not stopping anywhere not selected stops, but as with the rest of that post it needs taking with a pinch of salt

 

[absolutelymilk]

You know and i know that (and dont kid yourself otherwise) this is all about the same reasons that Network South East brought in DOO >>>> to reduce the amount of staff required in order to save money, not to go back to the public purse but to line shareholders pockets on this particular era.

Maybe this is the problem with discussion of such an emotive subject. You think that anyone who disagrees with you is so clearly wrong that they must be kidding themselves. I am very sorry that people may get a decrease in pay, but if it allows trains to not be delayed when guards are not available for whatever reason (and therefore allows more trains to run, more people getting to work, less cars on the road etc.) then I think it is a sensible step.

As others have posted before, TGSN is not a normal franchise, so doesn't get money saved. In any case, as I said above and many other anti-DOO posters have argued, guards often take in more revenue than their cost, not to mention the added reassurance/helpfulness to passengers, so it makes little sense to remove them.

 

[trentside]

All I can say is when I read things from folks down south about how they're being treated, is that I want to sit and cry. It doesn't get any more raw than that. Forget the RMT and their rubbish about France and profits. I'm not far off the end of my tether. I know of men that killed themselves when the mines shut round here and I know why.

I'm glad I'm not the only one who feels that way. I've been deliberately avoiding engaging in this thread as it's too much of an emotive issue for me and I'd struggle to constructively engage with the debate without getting angry!

 

[BestWestern]

Maybe this is the problem with discussion of such an emotive subject. You think that anyone who disagrees with you is so clearly wrong that they must be kidding themselves. I am very sorry that people may get a decrease in pay, but if it allows trains to not be delayed when guards are not available for whatever reason (and therefore allows more trains to run, more people getting to work, less cars on the road etc.) then I think it is a sensible step.

The GTR propaganda machine has managed a few direct hits then; anybody would think there was some sort of national pandemic of train cancellations due to daily catastrophic lack of Guards! Shock - this is a fairy story, much like most of the manure that is coming GTR, Hooray Horton and his witch.

 

[Agent_c]

Maybe this is the problem with discussion of such an emotive subject. You think that anyone who disagrees with you is so clearly wrong that they must be kidding themselves. I am very sorry that people may get a decrease in pay, but if it allows trains to not be delayed when guards are not available for whatever reason (and therefore allows more trains to run, more people getting to work, less cars on the road etc.) then I think it is a sensible step.

Which impliedly means you're happy sacrificing their job security, which is what its really about (other than a reduction in safety).

Once these roles are optional, they will go.

 

[absolutelymilk]

The GTR propaganda machine has managed a few direct hits then; anybody would think there was some sort of national pandemic of train cancellations due to daily catastrophic lack of Guards! Shock - this is a fairy story, much like most of the manure that is coming GTR, Hooray Horton and his witch.

No one has said it is a pandemic, but it certainly does happen occasionally.

Staff shortages blamed for almost 10 per cent of train delays and cancellations

Data from the Office of Rail and Road (ORR) shows the worst affected operator was Govia Thameslink- responsible for Thameslink, Southern and Gatwick Express services- who experienced more than 62,000 staff shortage incidents accounting to 13.6 per cent of its delays and cancellations (over a period of about 32 months)

Even if most of those were due to drivers rather than guards, then that still leaves thousands of delays on Thameslink alone. Of course this is not many in the context of other delays, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't try to reduce it.

 

[BestWestern]

No one has said it is a pandemic, but it certainly does happen occasionally.

Staff shortages blamed for almost 10 per cent of train delays and cancellations

Even if most of those were due to drivers rather than guards, then that still leaves thousands of delays on Thameslink alone. Of course this is not many in the context of other delays, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't try to reduce it.

Uh huh. And they are reduced by companies actually employing the number of staff that they require, rather than relying on overtime volunteers. To rip out an entire grade is part of a far bigger plan, and using the very same delays which TOCs cause themselves through poor staffing is deeply cynical PR spin.

 

[absolutelymilk]

Uh huh. And they are reduced by companies actually employing the number of staff that they require, rather than relying on overtime volunteers. To rip out an entire grade is part of a far bigger plan, and using the very same delays which TOCs cause themselves through poor staffing is deeply cynical PR spin.

Even if the TOCs hired a lot more staff and so could cover the times when there were large numbers of staff off ill or similar, there would still be times when a train was delayed waiting for a guard due to rostering mistakes, or trains being delayed.

 

[BestWestern]

Even if the TOCs hired a lot more staff and so could cover the times when there were large numbers of staff off ill or similar, there would still be times when a train was delayed waiting for a guard due to rostering mistakes, or trains being delayed.

During disruption yes, it's possible. But then the same applies equally to Drivers.

Competent rostering should minimise these situations by ensuring that staff are used efficiently but also in a manner which is not needlessly complicated and open to weaknesses.

 

[Dave1987]

Even if the TOCs hired a lot more staff and so could cover the times when there were large numbers of staff off ill or similar, there would still be times when a train was delayed waiting for a guard due to rostering mistakes, or trains being delayed.

Hmmm, when I was at Liv St underground station recently I needed to top up my Oyster. There was only one, yes one person to supervise all the ticket machines. It was pandemonium. Yet LU bosses claimed by closing the ticket offices there would be more staff out to assist passengers..... Yeah right!

 

[absolutelymilk]

During disruption yes, it's possible. But then the same applies equally to Drivers.

I'm not sure why this means that reducing delays due to lack of a guard would not be helpful.

Competent rostering should minimise these situations by ensuring that staff are used efficiently but also in a manner which is not needlessly complicated and open to weaknesses.

If trains are possibly going to be delayed by hours at a time, then either you will need guards waiting around for hours just in case their next train is delayed or a guard will not be available when it does happen. No amount of clever rostering is going to get around that.

Hmmm, when I was at Liv St underground station recently I needed to top up my Oyster. There was only one, yes one person to supervise all the ticket machines. It was pandemonium. Yet LU bosses claimed by closing the ticket offices there would be more staff out to assist passengers..... Yeah right!

So LU have chosen to spend money on more trains/maintenance/investment/ticket machines rather than on having more people on hand to help those who want to do something complicated and not have to queue for a long time for it. You might disagree but I don't really see how that is relevant here.

 

[BestWestern]

I'm not sure why this means that reducing delays due to lack of a guard would not be helpful.



If trains are possibly going to be delayed by hours at a time, then either you will need guards waiting around for hours just in case their next train is delayed or a guard will not be available when it does happen. No amount of clever rostering is going to get around that.



So LU have chosen to spend money on more trains/maintenance/investment/ticket machines rather than on having more people on hand to help those who want to do something complicated and not have to queue for a long time for it. You might disagree but I don't really see how that is relevant here.

Your arguments for stripping away several layers of staffing are, to put it politely, rather on the weak side. Mr Horton....

 

[absolutelymilk]

Your arguments for stripping away several layers of staffing are, to put it politely, rather on the weak side. Mr Horton....

I'm not arguing for stripping away several layers of staffing, I'm saying that if DOO means that guards can concentrate on revenue collection and also reduce delays caused by lack of a guard, then I am for it as a passenger. GTR don't seem to have dealt with its introduction very well, but that's a separate issue.

 

[HH]

Hmmm, when I was at Liv St underground station recently I needed to top up my Oyster. There was only one, yes one person to supervise all the ticket machines. It was pandemonium. Yet LU bosses claimed by closing the ticket offices there would be more staff out to assist passengers..... Yeah right!

1 > 0 !!

Being serious, it's probably not that simple. Knowing LUL they probably have all sorts of staff around, just not doing things that would be as useful as being in the ticket hall.

I recall a few years back having to negotiate access charges for a TOC at a LUL-run station and gasping when I saw the proposed cost of staff. When I asked precisely what all these staff were doing, a veritable cannery of worms was revealed...

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I'm not arguing...

I note that you didn't deny being Mr Horton...

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

No one has said it is a pandemic, but it certainly does happen occasionally.

Staff shortages blamed for almost 10 per cent of train delays and cancellations

Even if most of those were due to drivers rather than guards, then that still leaves thousands of delays on Thameslink alone. Of course this is not many in the context of other delays, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't try to reduce it.

Sunshine, the staff shortage has mostly come about because not enough drivers were hired. Much of the remaining problems are down to bad management. Until recently, staff sickness wasn't a big issue.

 

[TheEdge]

I'm not arguing for stripping away several layers of staffing, I'm saying that if DOO means that guards can concentrate on revenue collection and also reduce delays caused by lack of a guard, then I am for it as a passenger. GTR don't seem to have dealt with its introduction very well, but that's a separate issue.

And here we are again, the common misconception the guard is primarily a customer service/retail position when in reality it is quite literally the least important thing we do.

The most important thing we do is ensure the safety of the train. It's the being able to deal with an out of course or emergency situation. Its the making sure every journey is safe. In some cases its quite literally about making sure someone manages to get home that night.

It may sound like hyperbole but I've done that for real recently. I've dealt, as a guard, with a situation where people could have easily died. I dread to think what a full OBS, that is not an ex-guard but a off the street bloke with no safety training, would be able to do if faced with what I have dealt with. Last week a guard on GWR was evacuating a burning train.

You are a passenger. Can you honestly say you are okay finding yourself in a burning train, self evacuating over an unknown number of live lines and electrified rails while avoiding trains that haven't been stopped because the driver is incapacitated and word isn't out? Because that is the risk of DOO.

 

[Harbornite]

That's the difficult thing when you're involved isn't it - it's rather hard to express just how upset and angry it makes you feel. I can't accurately put in any other terms the feeling I get when I see DOO bandied about every day of my life because 1) it means my work is effectively without purpose and irrelevant and 2) it means I could lose everything I've worked hard for, entirely down to the machinations of individuals like these. I can't go a single day without hearing something about these plans whether I'm working or away because it's constantly in the news. I'm having to hear how destroyed my colleagues are and how little their management care for them as individual human beings.

With the tactics in play and the conscious decisions they've made I'm hardly going to wish them well in all their endeavours, am I? They choose to act this way.

The last time I was so upset by something on an ongoing basis was when I last lost a close relative.

I would absolutely love the moral high ground, really I would, but given I seem to have no power to do anything about it what else can I do but strike out?

You should be mature and rise above it. Don't wish bad things upon people, that means you are at risk of becoming worse than they are in moral terms. They are only doing their job, yes they may not be doing the correct thing and I don't necessarily think DOO is the right way forward but to wish for bad things to happen to the people at DFT and GTR isn't the right way of venting your anger. At the end of the day, other people over the years have lost their jobs, after having been made redundant or made obsolete by technology. Adapting and moving on is the best thing to do, although it is easier said than done.

 

[TheEdge]

Sunshine, the staff shortage has mostly come about because not enough drivers were hired. Much of the remaining problems are down to bad management. Until recently, staff sickness wasn't a big issue.

Honestly, I doubt staff sickness is even an issue now. I suspect Southern are deliberating making no effort whatsoever to cover diagrams or services, be they caused by illness, vacancies, holidays, whatever, cancelling them and are just chalking them up to illness for PR purposes.

 

[LowLevel]

You should be mature and rise above it. Don't wish bad things upon people, that means you are at risk of becoming worse than they are in moral terms. They are only doing their job, yes they may not be doing the correct thing and I don't necessarily think DOO is the right way forward but to wish for bad things to happen to the people at DFT and GTR isn't the right way of venting your anger. At the end of the day, other people over the years have lost their jobs, after having been made redundant or made obsolete by technology. Adapting and moving on is the best thing to do, although it is easier said than done.

That's easy to say when it doesn't involve you.

As I said in my previous post on this subject, I know of folk who have killed themselves in similar circumstances and they can't just move on and let it go, can they?

I don't have a degree, I don't have any more than A levels. I do have years of impeccable service with no sickness, no upheld complaints and a whole file of positive comments about how I've made the railway better. Why should I settle for stacking shelves in Tesco. I don't believe in eternal paradise. I have one life that I try to do the best in, for me and for others. Consequently I have little time for those that spend theirs doing down others to try and improve their own lot.

I won't be the statistic that 'loses it all' to them.

 

[Dave1987]

So LU have chosen to spend money on more trains/maintenance/investment/ticket machines rather than on having more people on hand to help those who want to do something complicated and not have to queue for a long time for it. You might disagree but I don't really see how that is relevant here.

I refer you to the PR LU management made when they proposed closing all the ticket offices! They said that closure would mean plenty of staff out on the ticket hall floor to assist passengers in using the ticket machines. Clearly the PR was nonsense. Noticing a pattern here?

 

[tsr]

Fast normally means not stopping anywhere not selected stops, but as with the rest of that post it needs taking with a pinch of salt

I have been reliably informed the train should have run London Bridge - East Croydon - Redhill. It was never intended to, and did not, run non-stop from London Bridge to Redhill.

I'm quite curious as to what happened to the conductor. The same (Redhill) conductor who brings the 12 coaches for that train into London Bridge then works the 1732 back out to Horsham / Tonbridge / Reigate at least to Redhill. The train is a conductor-worked Horsham stopper on the way up. IIRC that train ran rather late on the day in question but it would normally still have needed a conductor. My only suggestion is that it was also run fast to call at staffed stations only on the way to London Bridge, due to agreements in place to do so in disruption (which there was), and a conductor was due to work it out after picking up the stock at London Bridge.

 

[tony6499]

I have been reliably informed the train should have run London Bridge - East Croydon - Redhill. It was never intended to, and did not, run non-stop from London Bridge to Redhill.

I'm quite curious as to what happened to the conductor. The same (Redhill) conductor who brings the 12 coaches for that train into London Bridge then works the 1732 back out to Horsham / Tonbridge / Reigate at least to Redhill. The train is a conductor-worked Horsham stopper on the way up. IIRC that train ran rather late on the day in question but it would normally still have needed a conductor. My only suggestion is that it was also run fast to call at staffed stations only on the way to London Bridge, due to agreements in place to do so in disruption (which there was), and a conductor was due to work it out after picking up the stock at London Bridge.

All we need to know now who was the burly union official !?!