Southern DOO: ASLEF members vote 79.1% for revised deal

[theironroad]

There isn't a reason submitted. The stops are shown as taking place, yet more complete fudging of PPM (this train that should be a failure is recorded as a success). Why anyone thinks they are worth the paper they are written on is beyond me.

Hassocks ( in blue, so a booked stop) is shown as a 'pass' in the arrivals column. the departure column time is in effect the passing time.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

So my letter arrived. It seems sometimes around 20th August I will be getting my 12 weeks notice. I will then have 4 weeks to decide if I want to either : Go on the dole, or be a OBS. Sadly, not much of a choice I also got another letter telling me that since I went on strike I need to hand in my car park pass and rail pass. Should make getting to those 4am starts and coming home from 2.30am finishes a bit more complex. (the rail pass TBH, I'm not that bothered about, use the FIP and ATOC ones more)
I'm off this week on a block of restdays, so it's been nice to get away from it all. Funny thing is the latter asking for passes back, came the day after I had a person need urgent medical treatment. We waited for 30 mins at Plumpton station for an ambulance (on the ambulance services advice), but I made sure that everyone on the train got home on one of the last trains. All the punters seemed ok, with a few going, glad your here, and so on. So for a tiny moment I thought the letter in my pigeon hole might have been a 'thanks'. But then I remembered who I work for. Oh well.

I hope the rmt is looking into the legality of all factors of this dispute, is taking double days pay etc. In the case of the travel pass and car park permit, how is it right that two guards doing the same job are being offered different benefits. Guard A who didn't strike (maybe on a rest day) gets to keep their passes, but guard B did strike and is forced to surrender these benefits simply because they were on strike.

Surely this is discriminatory, as guard B was taking part in lawfully sanctioned industrial action.

Any real employment lawyers care to comment?

I'm glad you've been able to get a break from it Sarah and thoughts to all of you from your south west neighbours.

 

[HLE]

So my letter arrived. It seems sometimes around 20th August I will be getting my 12 weeks notice. I will then have 4 weeks to decide if I want to either : Go on the dole, or be a OBS. Sadly, not much of a choice I also got another letter telling me that since I went on strike I need to hand in my car park pass and rail pass. Should make getting to those 4am starts and coming home from 2.30am finishes a bit more complex. (the rail pass TBH, I'm not that bothered about, use the FIP and ATOC ones more)
I'm off this week on a block of restdays, so it's been nice to get away from it all. Funny thing is the latter asking for passes back, came the day after I had a person need urgent medical treatment. We waited for 30 mins at Plumpton station for an ambulance (on the ambulance services advice), but I made sure that everyone on the train got home on one of the last trains. All the punters seemed ok, with a few going, glad your here, and so on. So for a tiny moment I thought the letter in my pigeon hole might have been a 'thanks'. But then I remembered who I work for. Oh well.

Still treating their staff like crap then. Nothing changes.

I hope the RMT and Aslef have got a plan. For one, they need to hammer GTR if they've broken any employment laws.

 

[tony6499]

Still treating their staff like crap then. Nothing changes.

I hope the RMT and Aslef have got a plan. For one, they need to hammer GTR if they've broken any employment laws.

The plan if there is one is being kept secret

 

[JamesTT]

The plan if there is one is being kept secret

After the press release where the RMT said Southern had acted ILLEGALLY with regards to pay deductions and removing staff privileges they have gone very quiet on the matter

 

[infobleep]

After the press release where the RMT said Southern had acted ILLEGALLY with regards to pay deductions and removing staff privileges they have gone very quiet on the matter

May be they are doing it quietly because they have been advised by lawyers to say nothing.

Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk

 

[JamesTT]

May be they are doing it quietly because they have been advised by lawyers to say nothing.

Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk

Would there be any harm in a holding message then something like we continue to work with our lawyers regarding the deduction of 2 days pay and loss of travel and parking perks. As a side issue, if station staff (the lowest paid) are balloted, I really cannot see a yes vote for strike action if they risk losing 2 days pay and the travel and parking privileges.

 

[infobleep]

Would there be any harm in a holding message then something like we continue to work with our lawyers regarding the deduction of 2 days pay and loss of travel and parking perks. As a side issue, if station staff (the lowest paid) are balloted, I really cannot see a yes vote for strike action if they risk losing 2 days pay and the travel and parking privileges.

Only if the lawyers approve it. Lawyers are the most important people. I'm not one myself.

Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk

 

[Minstral25]

There isn't a reason submitted. The stops are shown as taking place, yet more complete fudging of PPM (this train that should be a failure is recorded as a success). Why anyone thinks they are worth the paper they are written on is beyond me.

Off topic but there is a lot of fudging of PPM numbers and also for Delay Repay vouchers like this along the Redhill route. Trains are often skip stopped but because they run down the line they are considered to have stopped.

When claiming Delay Repay the missed stop is not recorded and the Delay Repay refused requiring several appeals to get the small amount of money offered.

 

[Bishopstone]

Forgive me if I've missed any developments, as I'm only able to dip in and out of this long thread, but...

Is the legality of the ASLEF ballot still with m'learned friends, or have I missed the judgement?

 

[47513 Severn]

After the press release where the RMT said Southern had acted ILLEGALLY with regards to pay deductions and removing staff privileges they have gone very quiet on the matter

In the case of the deductions I wonder if there is anything the union can do other than further industrial action in protest. I imagine it would be down to each individual staff member affected to progess their own tribunal claim against GTR. I suppose the union could financially assist their members to do so but that would mean a lot of people, perhaps a test case is called for to see if a claim would succeed. I agree they do seem very quiet though, especially as the deductions have now been made.

The strikes seemed to be rescheduled to single day coverage quite soon after GTR announced their deduction intentions. Some might read that as the union taking legal advice and establishing the deductions are allowable according to the contract. I don't imagine the union would want to shout about it if that were the case. Deductions of all sorts are allowable as long as they are in the contract and don't result in the final wage being under the national minimum. Deductions for till shortfalls or losses due to mistakes and the like are actually quite common at the meaner end of the employment market. I used to work at a print firm where a colleague mistakenly printed 500 books with a page missing, the reprint cost him £350 at pay day but he had agreed to it in the contract.

As for the other perks, unfortunately it is pretty standard for such things to be written into contracts as strictly discretionary and able to be withdrawn at will. I don't see them getting anywhere with that one.

 

[sarahj]

In the case of the deductions I wonder if there is anything the union can do other than further industrial action in protest. I imagine it would be down to each individual staff member affected to progess their own tribunal claim against GTR. I suppose the union could financially assist their members to do so but that would mean a lot of people, perhaps a test case is called for to see if a claim would succeed. I agree they do seem very quiet though, especially as the deductions have now been made.

The strikes seemed to be rescheduled to single day coverage quite soon after GTR announced their deduction intentions. Some might read that as the union taking legal advice and establishing the deductions are allowable according to the contract. I don't imagine the union would want to shout about it if that were the case. Deductions of all sorts are allowable as long as they are in the contract and don't result in the final wage being under the national minimum. Deductions for till shortfalls or losses due to mistakes and the like are actually quite common at the meaner end of the employment market. I used to work at a print firm where a colleague mistakenly printed 500 books with a page missing, the reprint cost him £350 at pay day but he had agreed to it in the contract.

As for the other perks, unfortunately it is pretty standard for such things to be written into contracts as strictly discretionary and able to be withdrawn at will. I don't see them getting anywhere with that one.

The Sad thing about the deductions, is the first year conductors lost out even more. There were two payments taken out. One for the time lost during the strike, then another to make it up to the £258.00. Since the first years are on less, then their second payment was larger.

The perks is a odd one. They are advertised along with the job and also, esp the parking, mentioned in the interview. The withdrawal of travel is mentioned, but only due to miss use of them, such as handing the pass to others, sitting in the wrong class of seat. I do find it odd, that a job with odd, and daily changing start and end times, that told you in the interview that parking was available. Some people come in from quite a way, away (Crawley, Hailsham), and Southern are risking folks being more tired due to having to leave earlier, or get home later. My night bus home runs hourly, with none on a sunday night, and I live 10 mins drive, but up a very big hill in Brighton. oh well. That's how it is. Sad and Petty and pathetic, but heh ho!

 

[ainsworth74]

The Sad thing about the deductions, is the first year conductors lost out even more. There were two payments taken out. One for the time lost during the strike, then another to make it up to the £258.00. Since the first years are on less, then their second payment was larger.

If I'm reading that correctly that seems of very dubious legality. Taking two days pay is bad enough but making it up to an amount that isn't equivalent to two days pay at their rate of pay but is in fact more seems like it might well be cast iron illegal deduction from wages. Or have I misinterpreted what you said?

 

[sarahj]

If I'm reading that correctly that seems of very dubious legality. Taking two days pay is bad enough but making it up to an amount that isn't equivalent to two days pay at their rate of pay but is in fact more seems like it might well be cast iron illegal deduction from wages. Or have I misinterpreted what you said?

Nope, no misinterpretation.

 

[physics34]

Forgive me if I've missed any developments, as I'm only able to dip in and out of this long thread, but...

Is the legality of the ASLEF ballot still with m'learned friends, or have I missed the judgement?

The hearing started at 3pm. Results imminent i guess. Not very hopeful im afraid.

 

[47513 Severn]

The perks is a odd one. They are advertised along with the job and also, esp the parking, mentioned in the interview.

It will all come down to what the contract says, the interview will be deliberately vague. "Parking available" doesn't equal free parking being available. Similarly "We can withdraw your travel pass if you do something like..." would give them a pretty free hand.

What is clear is that GTR knew this was coming and have done their homework while the unions have been caught completely off guard. Unfortunately the history books show that disputes against a brick wall don't usually end well for unions.

Other TOC's will be watching this one with great interest.

 

[sarahj]

It will all come down to what the contract says, the interview will be deliberately vague. "Parking available" doesn't equal free parking being available. Similarly "We can withdraw your travel pass if you do something like..." would give them a pretty free hand.

What is clear is that GTR knew this was coming and have done their homework while the unions have been caught completely off guard. Unfortunately the history books show that disputes against a brick wall don't usually end well for unions.

Other TOC's will be watching this one with great interest.

Interview was, you will get a pass for free parking at the station. nothing vague about that. And withdrawal of travel facilities (and parking) is on abuse. I was not abusing them, in fact on strike day I got a bus to the picket line, rather than use my car park pass.

 

[tony6499]

Interview was, you will get a pass for free parking at the station. nothing vague about that. And withdrawal of travel facilities (and parking) is on abuse. I was not abusing them, in fact on strike day I got a bus to the picket line, rather than use my car park pass.

Is anything being done ? Or is anyone suing them or are you just sitting back being shafted ?

 

[Tetchytyke]

If I'm reading that correctly that seems of very dubious legality. Taking two days pay is bad enough but making it up to an amount that isn't equivalent to two days pay at their rate of pay but is in fact more seems like it might well be cast iron illegal deduction from wages. Or have I misinterpreted what you said?

It always boils down to the contract. GTR reckon they don't have to pay anything for part performance, and they define part performance on a weekly rather than a daily basis. If this is legitimate then the deductions are legitimate: GTR say they could, if they really wanted, refuse to pay the whole week's wages. If this is not legitimate then GTR should only deduct the hours or days that were not worked.

Partial performance gets complicated. My trade union, the UCU, had a series of two-hour strikes. Most of our employers were sensible enough to only deduct two hours' pay, but some universities were more militant and deducted the whole day's pay claiming they did not have to accept partial performance. Advice from my trade union was that this was correct.

It is extremely shameful behaviour from GTR, but unfortunately the only way to test it is through the employment tribunal. The problem with this is, of course, that the Conservatives have made the Tribunal fee a bargain £390 for simple claims and £1200 for complex claims. Unless the RMT stump up the ET fees then there are not going to be many people who are prepared to stump up a £390 tribunal fee over a £258 deduction, at least half of which is entirely reasonable, and which the fee would only be returned if they win.

One would also question whether GTR would employ people who dare challenge them as OBS, or whether they would find a convenient way of "downsizing" them out of the building.

Make no mistake that GTR are getting all the support and backing they need from central Government. This is a battle DafT have been waiting to wage since McNulty released his new more absorbent alternative to Andrex a few years ago.

But as we keep getting told, on these forums and elsewhere, we should all suck it up because "the country voted Conservative".

 

[HLE]

Is anything being done ? Or is anyone suing them or are you just sitting back being shafted ?

Danger is if SarahJ or her colleagues did try to do something, they could end up out of a job. Modern methods are 'there is the door if you dare to question us' ; with gross misconduct the latest trick HR use to justify a fair wack of dismissals.

I really feel for the southern guards in this. On the one hand they could take action themselves over the deductions. But at what cost? And they could be dispensed with very quickly if they were seen to be troublemakers.

Don't forget GTR believe they can do what they like. And with the government behind them....

Strength is in numbers. A few guards taking action unofficially or without the unions backing and approval could end very nasty. If they were to test the water with individuals pursuing GTR over the deductions then it might be best to do it with those who will retire or leave and choose not be re-employed as OBS.

Not simply a case of sitting back. These guys are fighting for their jobs after all.

Really is a shame Bob Crow is no longer with us. I wonder if Dennis Skinner fancies giving it a go!!

 

[PlatformPete]

The hearing started at 3pm. Results imminent i guess. Not very hopeful im afraid.

And your fears were correct!

GTR has Won the case and the Ballot is void!

 

[TheEdge]

What is worrying me about this whole dispute is how seemingly (maybe SarahJ can add some light) useless the RMT, and to a lesser extent ASLEF, have been in protecting their members interests.

Is the RMT membership worth that cost as they seem to have done the square route of sod all.

 

[HLE]

And your fears were correct!

GTR has Won the case and the Ballot is void!

Could see that one coming.

So effectively we can no longer strike?

 

[Carlisle]

Is anything being done ? Or is anyone suing them or are you just sitting back being shafted ?

I could recount a few stories of people I know have been truly shafted by management in the workplace, but what where discussing here is change, not well or compassionately managed change I know , but I think you need to show a greater sense of proportion in your argument

 

[HLE]

What is worrying me about this whole dispute is how seemingly (maybe SarahJ can add some light) useless the RMT, and to a lesser extent ASLEF, have been in protecting their members interests.

Is the RMT membership worth that cost as they seem to have done the square route of sod all.

Yep, they haven't come out of this very well at all.

 

[Haywain]

Is the RMT membership worth that cost as they seem to have done the square route of sod all.

The unions may have been ineffective in this case, but I suspect that without them SarahJ and many others would have been steam-rollered much more quickly and unkindly than is happening now.

 

[74A]

Could see that one coming.

So effectively we can no longer strike?

Yes you can still strike. Its just in this case the courts have decided the reason ASLEF have chosen to ballot on this occasion is not a valid one.

I should imagine its to do with the fact that the ASLEF ballot said they were striking due to the company not reaching agreement on the extension of DOO. The courts have already ruled that the company does not need the agreement of ASLEF to extend DOO. Its something drivers do already so no further agreement is need to extend the area over which it operates.

Refusing to extend DOO makes no sense. Either you are for it or against it. If ASLEF were to ballot to strike to bring back guards on every service I can't see the court having a problem with that but equally I can't really see ASLEF doing it.

The whole ASLEF change of policy from when DOO was extended on Overground with no fuss to no extension has just given the guards a false sense of hope that DOO can be stopped. DOO started in 1984 and unless ASLEF are willing to strike to get rid of DOO there is very little practically they can do about extending it.

 

[PlatformPete]

Yes you can still strike. Its just in this case the courts have decided the reason ASLEF have chosen to ballot on this occasion is not a valid one.

I should imagine its to do with the fact that the ASLEF ballot said they were striking due to the company not reaching agreement on the extension of DOO. The courts have already ruled that the company does not need the agreement of ASLEF to extend DOO. Its something drivers do already so no further agreement is need to extend the area over which it operates.

Refusing to extend DOO makes no sense. Either you are for it or against it. If ASLEF were to ballot to strike to bring back guards on every service I can't see the court having a problem with that but equally I can't really see ASLEF doing it.

The whole ASLEF change of policy from when DOO was extended on Overground with no fuss to no extension has just given the guards a false sense of hope that DOO can be stopped. DOO started in 1984 and unless ASLEF are willing to strike to get rid of DOO there is very little practically they can do about extending it.

The Ballot was only about the 12 car DOO workings on Gat Ex, not further extension of DOO on the network and in the previous ruling the Judge stated it was ok for ASLEF to ballot on the issue!!

Look forward to seeing the actual judgement.

 

[tony6499]

I could recount a few stories of people I know have been truly shafted by management in the workplace, but what where discussing here is change, not well or compassionately managed change I know , but I think you need to show a greater sense of proportion in your argument

I was thinking collectively, apart from a few poor press releases the RMT have hardly been leading from the front and allowing their members to suffer all matter of harassment

 

[Bishopstone]

A new, compliant ballot will push any resulting industrial action beyond the date of the EU Referendum, which I'm sure the Government will be celebrating.

I'd always thought the best chance of union success - at least in the short term - involved a scenario of co-ordinated action in the fortnight before the Referendum, against a backdrop of tight polls. That window is now lost.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Really is a shame Bob Crow is no longer with us. I wonder if Dennis Skinner fancies giving it a go!!

Do you not have the same faith in your current union leader as Bob Crow was given?