Mordac
Established Member
This may be the best topic to ask, how many units are TPE loaning to Northern? I've heard both 5 going down to 4 in July, and 4 going down to 3 in July, hence my asking, as I know there are people here who'll know for sure.
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Northern Class 185 Diagrams
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Greybeard33
Established Member
The very first post of this thread was my attempt to answer your question, based on the published timetable information! I do not "know for sure", but no-one has yet corrected it.
To be pedantic there is no simple answer, because TPE does not loan a specific sub-fleet of 185s to Northern. They are part of the general pool and interwork with TPE's own routes, so the individual 185s allocated to Northern services vary from day to day and even from hour to hour.
Per Post #1, each day (Mondays to Fridays only) there are now eight individual 185s that work at least one Northern service at some point during the day. But four of these only work one or two Northern services, either early morning or late evening, and spend the rest of the day on TPE services. So for most* of the day there are four units on Northern services, which is one less than before the 15th May timetable change. From 11th July, TPE will keep one more unit for its own services, so Northern will then use seven units in total daily, with only three for most* of the day.
Currently two 185s are stabled overnight at Blackpool and three (two from 11th July) at Barrow, i.e. one more than Northern uses for most of the day - that may explain the differing numbers you have heard (edit - see also footnote*). Part of the reason for the early morning/late evening Northern workings appears to be that TPE needs to rotate these units back to the Ardwick depot for periodic maintenance. So each morning one unit from Blackpool and one from Barrow runs in service to Manchester Airport, then works TPE services for the rest of the day. Two replacement units end up back in Barrow in the evening, while one unit from Barrow works a Northern diagram that ends at Blackpool.
I have not worked out the weekend diagrams in detail, but it seems likely that Saturdays Northern uses a similar number of 185s as Mon-Fri, but fewer on Sundays (varying with engineering works).
*Edit: due to Diagram 7 of Post #1 (which has a single round trip from Manchester Airport to Preston and back sandwiched between TPE South services) Northern currently uses five 185s concurrently between 19:00 and 21:20 each day, dropping to four from 11th July.
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Mordac
Established Member
Thank you. I had seen the first post, but as you say, it seemed to imply that there were seven or eight unites being used, and that confused me because it was so different from all the other numbers I'd seen quoted, but with your explanation, I understand now! Thanks again for taking the time to make it clear.
northwichcat
Veteran Member
According to Tony Miles Northern are in talks over replacement stock for the remaining 185s but he can't say any more than it's not more loco-hauled sets and he's hinted one of the replacement DMUs is what's been made available already by more Manchester area services being worked by EMUs at peak times.
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Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
More 319s and temporarily splitting services to abolish under-wires working would seem to me a sensible idea to free up units.
northwichcat
Veteran Member
Not sure there's that many services left where it will work. Eliminating the token remaining Liverpool to Blackpool service wouldn't go down well, especially at the start of the peak season for Blackpool.
Splitting the Crewe-Bolton morning peak service and extending the Chester-Manchester service (which runs just behind it) to run to Bolton would in theory free up 2 x DMUs but the Chester service (currently a crowded 2 car 150) would likely need strengthening if it extends to Bolton meaning only 1 x 142 would then be made available.
The 16:58 Piccadilly-Hazel Grove is still a 142 so could switch but that 142 is needed for the 17:58 Stockport-Chester so wouldn't be freed up for very long.
Running Buxton services to Preston to allow an EMU shuttle to run between Hazel Grove and Manchester may not end up releasing any DMUs at peak times due to Preston-Hazel Grove services being extended to Buxton at peak times.
Maybe another franchise could split up services to release a couple of Sprinters to Northern?
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Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
I'd abolish that anyway - I believe in a consistent hourly Taktfahrplan, which needs to be *consistent*. Changing at Preston is hardly a massive hardship.
Does the layout at Hazel Grove allow the service to be split there, running Manchester-Hazel Grove and Hazel Grove-Buxton separately? Not ideal, but these are not ideal times until the new TPE stock is delivered.
northwichcat
Veteran Member
Peak time services usually are off-pattern due to pathing conflicts when you add in the peak time extras, unless you're suggesting more infrastructure that's always going to be the case.
I think the crossover at Hazel Grove only allows services from Stockport to switch tracks. When Northern had the 180s one afternoon northbound working was split at Hazel Grove but the unit off the Buxton-Hazel Grove did an ECS to Stockport before working a Stockport-Chester service. I also can't see a change being approved within a few weeks - EMT, TPE and freight operators might have concerns about Northern doing that and no consultation process has been undertaken.
It's unusual for Tony Miles to say he can't even hint at the solution (other than it's multiple units) until the TOC has confirmed it. I wonder if Northern have secured units currently used by another TOC and DfT have asked them to keep quiet until the other TOC finalises replacement stock. For instance, maybe more loco-hauled for Scotrail to allow 156s to come south earlier than planned at the same time as increasing capacity on Scotrail services?
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Greybeard33
Established Member
I think the replacement DMU already freed by EMUs working the morning Macclesfield and evening Hazel Grove services will be one of the two additional Sprinters that have already replaced a 185 in the May timetable change (see Post #3). Another Sprinter will be needed from 11th July to work Diagram 9 of Post #3, so that could be a 156 from another TOC. But I think it is now too late to introduce more 75mph workings before the December timetable change. Between July and December, Northern will still need the following numbers of 185s or replacement 100mph units, Mon-Fri (diagram numbers from Post #1):
00:00 - 06:17: 4 units (Diagrams 1/4*, 2, 3 & 6)
06:17 - 19:00: 3 units (Diagrams 2, 4 & 6)
19:00 - 23:59: 4 units (Diagrams 2, 4, 6 & 7/8*)
*Diagrams 1 and 4 are effectively a single diagram with a unit swap at Manchester Airport; likewise Diagrams 7 and 8).
If these remaining 3/4 185s are to be replaced before December, I think the replacements will have to be other 100mph-capable units - but where could 170s or 180s come from?
There are in fact two crossovers just west of Hazel Grove. The trailing one enables a reversal from the Up (eastbound) platform, either back towards Stockport or a shunt into the Down siding, while the facing one enables a shunt move from the Up siding into the Down platform, for a departure towards Stockport. But I do not know if the signalling permits shunts either from the Down platform over the facing crossover into the Up siding, or from the Down siding over the trailing crossover into the Up platform. One or other of these moves would be necessary for a train from Buxton to reverse.
But in any case I think there is no chance that DfT/Rail North would contemplate stirring up a hornets' nest by making Buxton line commuters change trains at Hazel Grove!
Greybeard33
Established Member
Well spotted - thanks. I have updated Diagram 9 in Post #3 accordingly. Almost at the 11th hour, Northern has finally been allowed to substitute a 75mph Sprinter in the WCML train slots currently allocated to 185 Diagram 5 in Post #1. This resolves the issue first pointed out by robbeale in Post #25 - with the original timings, Diagram 9 was supposed to depart Preston for Windermere before it arrived from Barrow!
I suspect that DfT/Rail North have done some arm-twisting behind the scenes to get these timings agreed, and that the normal WCML train planning rules have been "bent" a little to squeeze the slow Sprinter in between the Virgin expresses. At Lancaster southbound, it is scheduled to arrive 5 minutes ahead of a 390 from Glasgow; back northbound at Lancaster, 7 minutes ahead of a Voyager to Edinburgh; and finally at Oxenholme, only 4 minutes ahead of a non-stopping 390 to Glasgow. These headways are much less than with the current 185 timings for this diagram and increase the risk of knock-on delays.
Unfortunately, these timetable changes will have come too late for some passengers who will already have bookings on the 0917 BIF - PRE after 11 July. Will Northern attempt to contact them to advise it is now to depart 27 minutes earlier? And there will be other passengers who would have booked on the 1029 PRE - WDM, had it been in the Journey Planners at the time, but will now have Advance tickets for Virgin or TPE connections to an earlier or later, less convenient, service from Oxenholme to Windermere.
The 1029 Preston to Windermere (1C72) is still not showing on the journey planner for 11/7/16, and RTT gives it as 'cancelled'.
Can we presume this to be an error? Everything looks okay for 12/7/16 onwards.
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The Saturday duty changing from 185 to Sprinter after next weekend appears to be the following.
0435 BIF-LAN arr 0531
0602 LAN-WDM arr 0641
3xOXN
0937 WDM-PRE arr 1039
1044 PRE-WDM arr 1137 (new arrival time 1142)
1xOXN
1251 WDM-PRE arr 1352 (new arrival time 1406)
1445 PRE-WDM arr 1537 (becomes 1430 PRE-WDM, arr 1541)
1xOXN
1707 WDM-PRE arr 1804 (new arrival time 1811)
1904 PRE-BIF arr 2021 (becomes 1908 PRE-BIF, arr 2033)
Sorry, I didn't think to record reporting numbers.
The above may be a complete diagram as it runs now, or it may be an amalgam of two, since there are currently two 185s at Preston from 1352 to 1407.
The 0435 BIF-LAN is showing on RTT as 'Cancelled' for 9/7/16 and 16/7/16, but there's no mention of this on Northern's Improvement Works page, no mention of bus replacements, and no suggestion of how a Sprinter is going to get to LAN to work the 0602 LAN-WDM.
I can only find three 185s in use on Sundays on BPN/WDM/BIF and they're all involved in doubling up between MIA and PRE, so it may be that there won't be a reduction in Sunday 185 duties at this stage.
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A nice scheduling goof involving an ex-BPN journey yesterday. The 1340 ex-BPN is, on a Saturday, currently scheduled to terminate at Manchester Piccadiily and wait in the Mayfield loop until its correct return time. I don't know why this should be, there certainly don't appear to be any more trains heading for the airport at this time than on any other day.
Preston to Deansgate, via Bolton, with five intermediate stops, takes around 45 minutes, and any other day of the week this particular train would be 1405 from Preston, 1451 into Deansgate. At the moment, because of the works at Chorley, the main Blackpool service is being diverted at weekends via Chat Moss & the WCML, and the journey in question doesn't have a Wigan stop, so you'd expect a Preston to Deansgate time of no more than 40 minutes, even with 75 mph units.
In fact the scheduled time is 54 minutes. Yesterday, because the train was five minutes early at Parkside Junction, and the 1415 Liverpool to Airport a minute late, the ex-Blackpool was given priority, which, in the normal course of events, it would be scheduled to have. It arrived at Deansgate at 1456, ten minutes prior to its booked time of 1506, nicely stopping in their tracks (pun - get it?) the 1415 ex-Liverpool (due to pass Deansgate at 1457) and the 1355 ex-Liverpool via Warrington stopper, due to call at 1500.
The ex-Blackpool departed Deansgate the moment the schedule permitted, but the ex-Liverpool semi-fast finished 12L, the ex-Liverpool stopper 9L, the Scarborough 13L, and the Bolton to Hazel Grove 7L. Let's hope things get sorted before next weekend.
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Yes, presumably an error. They had a similar situation with the first day of the May timetable with several trains incorrectly cancelled until I emailed them a couple of days beforehand to say "er lads, whats going on?".
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Spoke to Northern about this. Cancelled in error by Network Rail, the train is running. Should start showing from tomorrow.
I'm sure that's correct, there's no obvious reason for it not to run.
Not that it's unknown for the 0435 to be cancelled without replacement - it was cancelled Tuesday to Friday of this week, 28 to 31 June, for instance. The cancellation was necessary (?) because the 185 which should have operated it was terminated at Carnforth the previous evening (because of engineering work) at 2337 ex-MIA, returning to Ardwick for the night. A 185 then ran from Ardwick the next morning to operate the 0602 LAN-WDM.
No mention on Northern's website of the cancellation of the 0435 Tu-F, nor the 2147 PRE-BIF M-Th (replaced by bus throughout), nor the termination of the 2200 MIA-BIF at CNF, M-Th (bus CNF-BIF). In fact Northern's 'changes' expressly indicated that the 2147 and 2200 would be running as normal.
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ValleyLines142
Established Member
I know the list is for Monday to Fridays but are there any 185s working out of Blackpool on a Sunday now?
DanTrainMan, the following Sunday journeys are still scheduled for 185s and should continue to be even after next weekend's changes.
0848 Manchester Airport to Blackpool North arr 1028
1044 Blackpool North to Manchester Airport arr 1215
1229 Manchester Airport to Blackpool North arr 1403
1435 Blackpool North to Manchester Airport arr 1615 (Leading unit from Preston)
1629 Manchester Airport to Blackpool North arr 1803 (Leading unit to Preston)
1840 Blackpool North to Manchester Airport arr 2015 (Trailing unit from Preston)
2029 Manchester Airport to Blackpool North arr 2203 (Leading unit to Preston)
It can be deduced from the above that the unit which arrives at Blackpool at 1803 and 2203 should be a different one to that which arrives at 1028 and 1403. The first one should continue to Barrow ex 1629 from the Airport.
It can also be deduced that one more 185 stables at Blackpool North on a Sunday night as on a Saturday night. This tallies with only one unit apparently finishing there on a Saturday night instead of the two which would do any other night of the week. This unit presumably remains unused on Sundays.
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Some of the above diagrams seem a little 'flexible', i.e. it's not unknown for the units working diagrams 3 & 7 to swap over at the Airport (both scheduled to be there 1826-1833), e.g. 29/6, or those working 7 & 8 to do so (2135-2147), e.g. 5/7.
.
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Greybeard33
Established Member
Yes, on 29 June it appears that 1N70, 1900 MIA-PRE (Diagram 7), was formed from 1P51, the 1810 arrival from Middlesbrough, instead of 1B85, the 1826 arrival from Cleethorpes. As you say, 1P51 is a later part of the Northern Diagram 3, and normally forms 1P58, 1833 MIA-MBR, which was formed from 1B85 on this occasion.
While on 05 July, the lead unit of 1U79, the 2120 arrival from Blackpool/Preston (Diagram 7), formed 1C59, 2200 MIA-BIF (Diagram 8), instead of 1B96, 2147 MIA-SFD. This being a swap with 1B91, the 2135 arrival from Cleethorpes.
I guess TPE might have various operational reasons for making such unit swaps. I believe my OP still shows the normal pattern - for clarity, I have now edited it to add arrival times.
Oh yes, I'm sure the diagrams as given by yourself do indeed constitute the default situation, I've not come across any evidence to the contrary.
Last night the units on diagrams 6 & 7 were swapped c.2130, i.e. the one which had been on diagram 6 did 2147 MIA-SHF, and that on diagram 7 2129 MIA-BPN. Not entirely straightforward, as the 'diagram 7' unit was trapped at the concourse end of the platform - the 'diagram 6' unit was shuffled over to platform 2 (ex-3) and it departed for SHF from there.
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ValleyLines142
Established Member
Thank you very much for this!
So are the following still the 185 diagrams for the week? There's a lot going on on this thread so it's quite confusing!
Part of me wants to say yes because 185132 was on 1U63 (part of diagram 6) last Friday.
No, the current situation is as given in the quoted section of post 46 above (information from Greybeard). As stated, duty 5 should go over to Sprinter operation from about Monday (I say 'about', since the redundant 185 may be worked back to Ardwick as an alternative to an ECS duty being created for it). The equivalent Saturday duty (see post 42) should go Sprinter from tomorrow.
Greybeard33
Established Member
I have updated Post #1 of this thread since it was quoted in Post #46.
As far as I can see from RTT, the default M-F 185 diagrams from Monday 11 July are as per Post #1, but without Diagram 5, while the default M-F Sprinter diagrams are as per Post #3.
Not long to wait now to find out what actually happens!
As far as I can see from RTT, the default M-F 185 diagrams from Monday 11 July are as per Post #1, but without Diagram 5, while the default M-F Sprinter diagrams are as per Post #3.
Not long to wait now to find out what actually happens!
Loop & Link
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Yep all that looks absolutely spot on, to what I have seen.
The preceding southbound journey (1247 into MIA) was formed from the 0907 ex-Glasgow and 1040 ex-Windermere, combined at Preston.
I'm sure that, prior to the arrival of the 350s, there was more splitting/combining of units. I recall a situation where ex-Glasgow and ex-Edinburgh portions were combined at Carlisle, but it may have been only once per week.
I think that in an earlier post you made the point that, now that Northern are operating MIA-BPN themselves rather than hiring units to TPE to do it, they will not necessarily be restricted to using 2x156 combinations, so any combination of 75 mph units would probably be viable. I can't now find the comment, so you may have deleted it.
Anyway, my own first observation of a stray from the usual routine was last night, the 2029 MIA-BPN was formed of a single 156 rather than a double. Almost every seat was taken departing Deansgate, and a few passengers were standing in the vestibules. I don't know at what time the set reduced to a single, but I hope it wasn't any earlier than, say, 2029..
A round trip earlier, as the 1440 BPN-MIA, the set was terminated at MAN after arriving 24 minutes late. It seems it had been diverted via Wigan because of a points failure somewhere on the Bolton line (other services were diverted/cancelled) but it still managed to lose 19 minutes between Euxton Junction and Ordsall Lane Junction. I doubt that this was anything to do with the reduction to 2-car, however.
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Des Iroman
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It'll still only be 156s on the Blackpool - Airport services for now - the ex-TPE crews working them don't sign any other 14x or 15x traction.
What happened to the idea to use 156+153 combinations? Or was that simply romanticism on our part?
Or is it as per #54 above, i.e. it's an ex-TPE diagram, it uses ex-TPE crews, and they aren't trained on 153s?
Robbeale, when you say the 156s are a bit small for peak time trains, do you mean that at peak times almost every seat is taken, or every seat is taken and passengers are standing in the vestibules, or passengers are standing both in the vestibules and the gangways?
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Loop & Link
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Don't think there was ever such a plan by TPE/Northern? The 3 car unit is a 185 on the service that people thought was going to be a 156/153 (1900 Airport-Preston) and as mention ex-TPE crew aren't trained on 153's.
I've heard that last Saturday people almost couldn't fit on at Kendal with scenes reminiscent of Oxford Circus Tube station!
I've been on on the 1650 and 1803, both of which were standing room only. We'll see what the kids holidays bring.
Two car 156 today, no extra 153. It's 156482 today.
I've been on on the 1650 and 1803, both of which were standing room only. We'll see what the kids holidays bring.
Two car 156 today, no extra 153. It's 156482 today.
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Greybeard33
Established Member
Northern has only managed to free up one 156 for this M-F Barrow/Preston/Windermere diagram by means of a complex internal DMU cascade, which has involved fewer or shorter carriages on numerous other overcrowded services across the Northern network - see this thread. So it seems unlikely that Northern could free up a 153 as well, to strengthen the M-F Windermere shuttle to 3-car.
However, if the ex-TPE crews were retrained to sign 153s, 150s and 142s as well as 156s (maybe eventually 319s too?), it would improve operational flexibility in case of disruption or unit failure, and might enable strengthening of weekend Windermere services.
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