Season ticket expired by one day

[pizza_tester]

I travel from Halifax to Leeds every day on the train. I buy a weekly season ticket one or two days in advance.

My weekly season ticked expired on the 24th of May. I normally purchase the next week’s ticket on the way home at the Halifax station as the ticket office tends to be quieter in the evening. However the ticket office was closed at Halifax in the evening of 24th.

The next morning I completely forgot about the ticket and showed my pass to the ticket inspectors at the gate at Halifax, who failed to spot the ticket was out of date. On the train the conductor started inspecting the tickets, and again failed to spot my ticket had expired the previous night.

I only remembered when I got my ticket out for the automatic barriers at Leeds. I headed straight to the ticket office which is located before the ticket barriers. At the ticket office I queued up and when I got to the counter I was quizzed as to why I was trying to purchase a ticket FROM Halifax to Leeds starting on the 25th. I explained the situation but quite frankly I was made to feel like I had been trying to cheat the railway. I explained that since I always bought using my tickets using my rail Photo card (they scan the barcode), it would be easy for Northern Rail to check that I always bought weekly passes from my rail Photo card ID number.

The young lady said she would enter my details in on a form that would be held by Northern Rail. The form looked as if it logged details of fare dodgers. I asked if there was someone I could speak to but was told there was no one I could speak to but she could get Northern Rail to write to me instead. I opted for that rather than be registered as a fare dodger. However reading this forum, it seems I might have opted for the worse option.

Additionally, when I said I still wanted to purchase the ticket she said there was no need as the details I had provided (name, address, DOB plus a signature) was instead of the ticket. Have I made a rod for my own back?

Are they now looking for Ticket plus costs of some kind? … or worse!

 

[dquebec]

Are you saying the booking office staff took your details or that one of the barrier/revenue staff did?

Both do have the powers to report you for the criminal offence of travelling without a valid ticket, so doesn't really make much difference BUT -

Booking office staff normally need to take your details when renewing a season ticket, so if you hadn't used that particular ticket office before, it would be perfectly normal to expect to have to give your name, address, DOB etc for the electronic season ticket database.

Did you actually pay for a ticket in the end? Worst case if that you'll have to pay £80 plus the single fare for your error.

 

[swt_passenger]

Booking office staff normally need to take your details when renewing a season ticket, so if you hadn't used that particular ticket office before, it would be perfectly normal to expect to have to give your name, address, DOB etc for the electronic season ticket database.

It's only a seven day season, AIUI TOCs don't normally keep any records of them, as opposed to monthly and longer, which is how you can usually renew 7 day seasons at TVMs by entering your photo card number.

 

[dquebec]

It's only a seven day season, AIUI TOCs don't normally keep any records of them, as opposed to monthly and longer, which is how you can usually renew 7 day seasons at TVMs by entering your photo card number.

I have had to give my details for quite a few 7 day season tickets. They scan the photocard barcode and my details appear. I sometimes get given a receipt with my name, house number and postcode on it to check.

 

[bb21]

To put it simply, yes, you have probably dropped yourself in it. There is nothing wrong with purchasing a season ticket in the reverse direction as normally season tickets are reversible.

We can't really tell you what Northern intend to do until you hear from them, but I am inclined to agree that there is a good possibility Northern may want to treat this as per normal cases where the passenger travelled without a valid ticket.

Part of me finds this really underhanded, seeing that you were already queuing to buy a ticket on your own initiative. IMHO a charge for fare evasion would likely fail since your actions demonstrate sufficiently no intent to avoid paying your correct fare, but a charge under the Railway Byelaws may succeed depending on what you said exactly when questioned, and whether you had an opportunity to pay before the commencement of your journey at Halifax.

I do hope that they fail if they attempt to prosecute in this case, assuming that there is no other material fact about the case we have not been told.

I have had to give my details for quite a few 7 day season tickets. They scan the photocard barcode and my details appear. I sometimes get given a receipt with my name, house number and postcode on it to check.

Additionally, when I said I still wanted to purchase the ticket she said there was no need as the details I had provided (name, address, DOB plus a signature) was instead of the ticket. Have I made a rod for my own back?

Sounds to me like anything but a record for the season ticket database, unfortunately.

 

[pizza_tester]

To put it simply, yes, you have probably dropped yourself in it. There is nothing wrong with purchasing a season ticket in the reverse direction as normally season tickets are reversible.

I wasn't trying to purchase it in the reverse direction . The problem was when I asked for a weekly ticket FROM Halifax to Leeds. The booking office guy then called another staff member (there were a few of them stood outside the booking office), who took me to one side and asked why I was attempting to buy a ticket for a journey that I had already made.

Are you saying the booking office staff took your details or that one of the barrier/revenue staff did?

Did you actually pay for a ticket in the end? Worst case if that you'll have to pay £80 plus the single fare for your error.

I don't think it was a booking staff member, as she was stood outside with a whole bunch of other Northern rail staff.

She Initially wanted me to fill out a pre-printed form which had something about fare avoidance at the top. I wanted to explain that I was not trying to avoid the fare, but had made a simple mistake which I was not trying to rectify by purchasing the full ticket (with the journey starting FROM Halifax).

She said If I did not want to fill out the form and wanted to explain my side she would get Northern Rail to send a letter on which I could explain my side. At that time it seemed like a good option. She put away the pre-printed form and got me to fill in a handwritten form and sign it at the bottom.

It's after that when I tried to go back to the queue to get my ticked that she said I now did not need one as what I had signed counted as the ticket ??!! After that she directed me towards the barriers , and got one of the staff at the gate to let me out to the main station.

I went immediately to the booking office located outside and purchased a full weeks ticket from there (Starting on the same day).

 

[island]

Unfortunately you have committed a criminal offence by joining the train at Halifax without a ticket, as Halifax station has ticketing facilities. It does not matter how many previous tickets you may have had or how short a period your ticket had been expired for. Intent is irrelevant.

Arriva Northern's usual process for dealing with offenders in this situation tends to be to issue a Penalty Fake by post, which in this case would be a charge of £84.50, payment of which would avoid the possibility of being prosecuted. This applies to first-time offenders.

Make sure you keep the 7-day season ticket you subsequently purchased as it may be a mitigating factor in the event that Arriva Northern writes out to you to ask for further details of your travel.

 

[rdwarr]

Unfortunately you have committed a criminal offence by joining the train at Halifax without a ticket......

True, but it still smacks of nastiness. Like many passengers the OP has a routine which always includes having a valid ticket in the morning and took steps to rectify the situation at the first opportunity.

The ticket office at Halifax should have been open the previous evening. It wasn't.
The barrier staff at Halifax who checked the ticket should have noticed it was out of date. They didn't.
The train who checked the ticket should have noticed it was out of date. He didn't.
And the "straight down the prosecution path" decision at Leeds comes over as extremely harsh.

Sure, the OP made a mistake but that is why other companies operate a Penalty Fare scheme. IT's time for a bit of uniformity across the board here.

 

[trentside]

While it may seem harsh to go straight down the prosecution route, it appears the OP was offered another option before this happened. I'm not sure what the original form was (possibly logging details for the future, follewed by a UPFN?) but it appears that they were not happy about this, so the RPO decided they would have to take another route.

Like others, I'd imagine the outcome will be the fare owing, plus an £80 administration charge.

 

[Puffing Devil]

While it may seem harsh to go straight down the prosecution route, it appears the OP was offered another option before this happened. I'm not sure what the original form was (possibly logging details for the future, follewed by a UPFN?) but it appears that they were not happy about this, so the RPO decided they would have to take another route.

Looking at the OP's account, I can't see any offer or discussion, only the Ticket Office clerk taking details - no explanation of what was to happen.

This is a really petty case where I hope a bit of common sense can be employed by the TOC.

• They are not out of pocket
• The OP did not set out to skip payment
• The OP searched out a chance to pay
• The Ticket Office could have taken payment and no-one would have been inconvenienced

Instead, the TOC processes have kicked in and we've seemingly gone down the "fare avoidance process".

When the letter comes from the prosecutions department, I would write making the above points in a gentle manner, suggesting that the matter can be closed, no harm was done and the OP has, and continues to buy, tickets on a regular basis.

The OP then has a choice if they demand a penalty, pay up or fight. I would be tempted to fight. Something like this should not even get to court, given the circumstances, I doubt it could reasonably pass any public interest test.

 

[Haywain]

I think that without knowing exactly what was said (and done) at the time, it is difficult to simply say that the TOC is being harsh. We only have one side of the story, and expressions of righteous indignation against the other side are of no benefit to the OP.

 

[pizza_tester]

While it may seem harsh to go straight down the prosecution route, it appears the OP was offered another option before this happened. I'm not sure what the original form was (possibly logging details for the future, follewed by a UPFN?) but it appears that they were not happy about this, so the RPO decided they would have to take another route.

At no point was there a mention of penalty fares or the consequences of Northern Rail writing to me. I did not outright refuse the first option.

I asked if I could speak to someone to explain my situation. She said there was no one to speak to however, she could get Northern Rail to write to me and I could explain my circumstances in the reply.

I even asked her at one point what the difference was between the two ‘options’. She just looked at me did not respond to that. I assumed from her silence she just wanted me to make my mind up. I honestly thought she was giving me a better option to explain my situation.

If I had known, or was told, the difference between the two, I would have swallowed the very bitter pill of being labelled a fare dodger and paid the penalty.

I only suspected something was wrong when she did not allow me to buy the ticket, and said what I had signed constituted as a ticket.

I shall post an update after I get the letter from Northern Rail.

 

[trentside]

Thanks. I shall be interested to see what approach Northern are going to take in this case. It sounds like there were potentially deficiencies in how you were dealt with by the revenue protection staff, but that's something to potentially take up with Northern later.

I'm somewhat conflicted on this case, as bypassing the facilities at Halifax left the OP open to this, but equally they realised their error and were attempting to rectify it.

We'd be happy to proof read anything you send to Northern when the time comes.

 

[najaB]

I'm somewhat conflicted on this case, as bypassing the facilities at Halifax left the OP open to this, but equally they realised their error and were attempting to rectify it.

We'd be happy to proof read anything you send to Northern when the time comes.

It is a case where the letter of the law is being applied, rather than the spirit. Northern won't be covering themselves in glory if they proceed with a prosecution, so at worst I'd expect a £80 + fare penalty notice, at best they may decide to take no further action 'as a gesture of goodwill'.

 

[Chrisgr31]

This is the sort of thing which annoys me about rail travel. There must be a way to tell the difference between someone who has made a mistake one day as against someone who dodges the fares most days.

It seems that on occasions passengers who have made a genuine error or always had the intention of paying get targetted, mainly because its easy.

 

[DaleCooper]

There must be a way to tell the difference between someone who has made a mistake one day as against someone who dodges the fares most days.

Can you think of a way?

 

[Agent_c]

Can you think of a way?

Well, showing up at the ticket office at the conclusion of the journey, with a ticket that is out by one day would do it for me...

 

[gimmea50anyday]

Well, showing up at the ticket office at the conclusion of the journey, with a ticket that is out by one day would do it for me...

That.......

Of course if he was at Leeds Ticket office, how did he get through leeds barriers and then have the honesty to walk straight to the ticket office when he could have walked away and not paid at all?

I would make this particular point very clear in any please explain you may want to submit

 

[323235]

As far as I understand he was attempting to buy his ticket from the ticket office area which Northern operate within the barriers, where people go if they've arrived without a ticket for whatever reason.

 

[gimmea50anyday]

So he hasnt yet even attempted to leave the station. And he is in a queue attemlting to buy his ticket for the journey he has undertaken. As a revenue officer colleague of mine often points out the offence only becomes complete once an attempt is made to leave the station without paying.

Of course there is always more to every story, but it soulds like the OP has done everything he was supposed to do and Northern are playing very unfairly with an easy target in order to make the offence statistics look good. I sincerely hope the OP continued with his season purchase as that may weaken the prosecution case.

 

[Haywain]

On the other hand, the out of date ticket had already been presented twice to staff which could easily be taken as an attempt to avoid paying the fare. What would have then happened had the gates at Leeds been open is perhaps a moot point. After all, a valid ticket should be obtained prior to travel where an opportunity is available as at Halifax.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

. . . . As a revenue officer colleague of mine often points out the offence only becomes complete once an attempt is made to leave the station without paying.

I hesitate to challenge this observation, which has a lot to commend it - the evidence of a passenger having been seen to leave railway property after a ticketless journey should stand up robustly against most likely defences. It's a good principle to apply to cases where there is any uncertainty.

But just in case that phrase was to be picked up and repeated as a general rule, then I have to make two exceptions clear:
1. The Byelaw 18 Offence is already 'complete' when the ticketless passenger boards the train at Halifax while the facilities to buy were available.
2. The RoRA Section 5 Offence is 'complete' (following clarification in case law rather than from a reading of the wording of the Act) as the ticketless passenger has passed an available opportunity to pay, and in this particular incident, it seems rather probable that the facilities might have been available.

The distinction which is worth remembering is that there are two thresholds of evidence in any conviction : the lower level, at which the accused person has provided some persuasive evidence of committing the offence; and the higher level of evidence at which a conviction would be reasonably likely (the first part of the 'code test' which the CPS would have to apply to a public conviction).
I have no hesitation in agreeing that a passenger leaving the destination station without paying would have met that higher level of evidence, making a successful conviction very likely.

 

[pizza_tester]

On the other hand, the out of date ticket had already been presented twice to staff which could easily be taken as an attempt to avoid paying the fare.

I am actually quite surprised at how showing my rail pass twice could be misconstrued as an attempt to deceive or avoid paying the fare.

If anything I would have said that supported my case in that I did not have anything to hide. I simply forgot. I am also surprised at the ‘black and white’ interpretation of the law being put forward in this forum.

I would also be surprised if other weekly ticket holders had not been in a position where they had forgotten to renew their tickets. I have previously, once before, forgotten to renew my ticket - I think it was after a bank holiday Monday- and again my ticket had expired by one day. The conductor on the train spotted that. I asked if I could buy the weekly ticket off him rather at Leeds. He said that was fine, and nothing else was said. I paid with my credit card on his portable card reader.

I regularly see conductors asking people if they need tickets on the trains (generally they ask for people to produce tickets, others specifically ask if anyone needs tickets – regardless of the phrases used, I have occasionally observed people buy tickets from conductors after departing from stations which have ticket offices.

This, to me at least, is sending mixed messages.

What would have then happened had the gates at Leeds been open is perhaps a moot point. After all, a valid ticket should be obtained prior to travel where an opportunity is available as at Halifax.

Anyone travelling to Leeds during the rush hours will know one of the gates is actually left open and manned by a single member of staff. Had I wanted to ‘chance it’ and avoid paying for the ticket, I could have most likely walked through the gate. Given the volume of people, the guards only seem to glance at the tickets, if that.

 

[najaB]

I am also surprised at the ‘black and white’ interpretation of the law being put forward in this forum.

Fortunately or unfortunately, the law has to be interpreted in this manner - something is either legal or it is not, there's no such thing as 'slightly illegal' or 'mostly legal'.

I regularly see...
This, to me at least, is sending mixed messages.

It very well may be, but "the other guy didn't get charged" never works as a defence.

 

[island]

The fact that on one or more occasions you or one or more other passengers have committed criminal offences for which you have not been prosecuted is not a defence to a prosecution for the present offence which you have committed. Nor are any alleged "mixed messages".

Yes, we're interpreting the law in black and white, because either you have committed an offence or you have not. There is no "well he only sort of didn't have a ticket".

 

[Chrisgr31]

Can you think of a way?

Someone presenting themselves to buy a ticket is one way, but I would also take the name and post code of anyone buying a ticket onboard or at the destination. This would enable TOCs to identify those who are often missing the opportunity to buy tickets prior to boarding and therefore investigate why.

 

[island]

And do you think passengers will readily furnish that information?

 

[DaleCooper]

And do you think passengers will readily furnish that information?

Honest ones will, the habitual fare evaders that Chrisgr31's idea is supposed to target will just give a false, but credible, name and address.

 

[Chrisgr31]

Honest ones will, the habitual fare evaders that Chrisgr31's idea is supposed to target will just give a false, but credible, name and address.

And when your analysis shows that you often have someone providing false information on certain services you know where to concentrate your resources on catching the deliberate fare dodgers.

 

[Deerfold]

And when your analysis shows that you often have someone providing false information on certain services you know where to concentrate your resources on catching the deliberate fare dodgers.

How do you tell that?

What are you going to do with the names and address you collect?

What if they are real but not belonging to the people who gave them?

How do you find that out?

Are you going to have to do as much work as if you were prosecuting people but without taking them to court?