New guided buses to Leigh from April

[yorksrob]

So how much does this goodly busway cost to travel on, out of curiosity.

 

[nerd]

So how much does this goodly busway cost to travel on, out of curiosity.

just the busway itself costs a flat-rate £1 per trip (special introductory offer). End-to-end, into Manchester from Leigh or Atherton costs £4. If you want to return to Leigh, then you need a FirstDay unlimited ticket at a cost of £4.20. FirstWeek tickets are £14, and FirstMonth, £52.

Otherwise a 10-trip multibuy phone-stored bundle costs £20 from the First travel app.

Fares are standard First scale - apart from the special introductory. Singles are overpriced; multibuy and weekly tickets are underpriced. The consequence being to penalise cross-mode and cross-operator trips; which is exactly contrary to the way things would be to maximise access to the whole rapid transit network. The prices are aimed at defending market share; not at growing the overall market.

 

[yorksrob]

just the busway itself costs a flat-rate £1 per trip (special introductory offer). End-to-end, into Manchester from Leigh or Atherton costs £4. If you want to return to Leigh, then you need a FirstDay unlimited ticket at a cost of £4.20. FirstWeek tickets are £14, and FirstMonth, £52.

Otherwise a 10-trip multibuy phone-stored bundle costs £20 from the First travel app.

Fares are standard First scale - apart from the special introductory. Singles are overpriced; multibuy and weekly tickets are underpriced. The consequence being to penalise cross-mode and cross-operator trips; which is exactly contrary to the way things would be to maximise access to the whole rapid transit network. The prices are aimed at defending market share; not at growing the overall market.

Yes, as someone who travels to the area regularly, its noticeable that the rail fare within greater Manchester is a lot better value than the bus journey between Atherton and Leigh (£2.50 single, £4.50 return).

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Yes, as someone who travels to the area regularly, its noticeable that the rail fare within Greater Manchester is a lot better value than the bus journey between Atherton and Leigh (£2.50 single, £4.50 return).

But would you take a bus from Leigh to Atherton in order to take an onward train from there to Manchester?

 

[nerd]

But would you take a bus from Leigh to Atherton in order to take an onward train from there to Manchester?

As part of a multi-mode trip; very likely.

This is an important issue; though likely not solvable until TfGM are able to take over devolved transport powers for buses as well as trains.

First operate the busway as an extension to their proprietary network; so they are bound to allow those buying their regular weekly and multibuy tickets access to busway trips (as indeed purchasers of those product would rightly feel entitled). But that then constrains their overall pricing policy for busway trips to favour regular First passengers.

But from TfGM's perspective, the busway forms one component of a wider network of rapid transit provision - eventually maybe consisting of BRT/tram/metro; and ideally there should be through ticketing and common fare zones across that whole network, without differentiating travel mode. This would imply rather higher prices for peak-period weekly and season tickets, lower prices for short distance singles, and a whole range of off-peak occasional lower cost offers. On the tram, you can travel the whole weekend (from Friday evening) for £5.80. Or take an entire family off-peak unlimited for £6.20 a day.

For comparison perhaps; look how Lothian price buses and trams across Edinburgh (excluding the airport of course)

 

[yorksrob]

But would you take a bus from Leigh to Atherton in order to take an onward train from there to Manchester?

Leigh tends to be my destination rather than origin, but yes, I find it very easy and cost effective to travel through from West Yorkshire to Atherton by train, even though connections tend to get worse with each year.

 

[185]

Bus off the tracks yesterday... did not happen at a join point, nor was speeding a likely factor.

Suspected it was due to a pedestrian crossing where there is a 2m break in guideway, but early days yet.

 

[nerd]

“First Manchester has launched an immediate investigation into the cause of the incident. In the meantime all drivers have been briefed and a reduced speed limit has been introduced along the guideway section.”

One passenger injury; temporary speed llmit applied.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Leigh tends to be my destination rather than origin, but yes, I find it very easy and cost effective to travel through from West Yorkshire to Atherton by train, even though connections tend to get worse with each year.

Perhaps not the typical passenger journey?

 

[yorksrob]

Perhaps not the typical passenger journey?

I doubt I'm the only person who travels there from places other than Manchester. The Atherton line has good connections at Victoria and even some trains to Piccadilly and Oxford Road (although some of the latter may have been due to the electrification works.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

I doubt I'm the only person who travels there from places other than Manchester. The Atherton line has good connections at Victoria and even some trains to Piccadilly and Oxford Road (although some of the latter may have been due to the electrification works.

No but the vast majority will be heading to Manchester. So you're not alone but neither are you the main market

 

[WatcherZero]

Took 5 weeks to hit 150,000th passenger (May 9th) That's ever so slightly more than Airport and East Manchester Metrolink lines managed in their first few months, they are both currently doing around 200,000 a month. The park and ride on the East Lancs still not getting much use (and probably wont till they add a motorway junction to it) but the other park and ride sites are pretty full.

First are now considering increasing the frequency.

 

[yorksrob]

No but the vast majority will be heading to Manchester. So you're not alone but neither are you the main market

Maybe not, but heavy rail is arguably a more important mode of transport for longer distance journeys than bus.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Maybe not, but heavy rail is arguably a more important mode of transport for longer distance journeys than bus.

More important?

That local journeys are more prevalent was my question

 

[Y961 XBU]

I have noticed the Busway Services are getting busy due to other Services finishing at Park and Rides meaning you get their Passengers aswell.. A problem that needs to be addressed.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I have noticed the Busway Services are getting busy due to other Services finishing at Park and Rides meaning you get their Passengers aswell.. A problem that needs to be addressed.

Well, I think that was the thinking behind that particular scenario.

 

[Ianno87]

I have noticed the Busway Services are getting busy due to other Services finishing at Park and Rides meaning you get their Passengers aswell.. A problem that needs to be addressed.

How exactly is that a "problem"?

Surely passengers joining the busway to complete their journey means that it is working, and avoids unneccessary duplication of routes into central Manchester.

Easily resolvable by upping the busway frequency to meet demand.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Easily resolvable by upping the busway frequency to meet demand.

I think that matter is currently being considered by the operator.

 

[yorksrob]

More important?

That local journeys are more prevalent was my question

There aren't vast numbers of passengers who go from Leigh by bus to Atherton then get the train, which suggests to me that most Leigh - Manchester passengers already use a different option. That doesn't necessarily mean that the train wouldn't be the preferred option for Leigh - Manchester passengers if a decent rail alternative existed.

However, for my longer distance journey, train to Atherton remains the logical option.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

There aren't vast numbers of passengers who go from Leigh by bus to Atherton then get the train, which suggests to me that most Leigh - Manchester passengers already use a different option. That doesn't necessarily mean that the train wouldn't be the preferred option for Leigh - Manchester passengers if a decent rail alternative existed.

However, for my longer distance journey, train to Atherton remains the logical option.

Passengers from Leigh to Manchester may prefer that were an option existed but it doesn't. For your particular journey, I can see why rail fits as with other longer journeys. However, I'd suggest that local traffic is more prevalent by some margin

 

[Y961 XBU]

How exactly is that a "problem"?

Surely passengers joining the busway to complete their journey means that it is working, and avoids unneccessary duplication of routes into central Manchester.

Easily resolvable by upping the busway frequency to meet demand.

Its a problem as the Passenger numbers are to high and this is leading to standing loads on a regular basis

 

[nerd]

Its a problem as the Passenger numbers are to high and this is leading to standing loads on a regular basis

Standing loads from which point on the route?

And do you know whether they are more inwards or outwards?

And is it on both V1 and V2 - could passengers crowded out from one, find more space on the other?

The bus configuration has a deliberately dual aspect; seating (and tables) upstairs; fewer seats, more standing spaces downstairs.

Since, from my experience, it takes only 20 minutes to get into central Manchester from the East Lancs park and ride - and only 10 minutes to Salford Uni - standing downstairs for that long should be less of a problem. But if passengers have to stand all the way from Leigh; then clearly there is an issue.

I had envisaged that, once the full route to Central Manchester Hospitals is run, riders travelling Uni-to-Uni would mostly stand; while those carrying on all the way out beyond the M60 would expect a seat (at least once past the park and ride).

But likely the world is never so neat.

 

[KendalKing]

Easily resolvable by upping the busway frequency to meet demand.

I think that matter is currently being considered by the operator.

I believed that, it was always planned to upped the frequency from every 15-mins to every 10-mins, once the route(s), had been established (passenger growth) and the teething problems resolved.

 

[ooo]

I believed that, it was always planned to upped the frequency from every 15-mins to every 10-mins, once the route(s), had been established (passenger growth) and the teething problems resolved.

Would this need any new additional/ new buses?

 

[KendalKing]

Would this need any new additional/ new buses?

I believe that the speed limit on the guided busway is due to be increased in time, plus there are two additional (New) buses on order. Together this should allowed the planned increase in frequency.

 

[Bungle965]

Would this need any new additional/ new buses?

It will be interesting to see how First copes if there are no new buses, as it has been reported that a few of the buses have already had to go off for repairs. Leaving the fleet stretched. I expect to see the spare/backup bus in use more often.

The Volvo Gemini 2 is the spare non vantage spec bus that has been specifically fitted with guide wheels to operate the guided busway. Looking ahead it would not surprise me if First fit guide wheels to more of these buses.
Sam

 

[Y961 XBU]

Standing loads from which point on the route?

And do you know whether they are more inwards or outwards?

And is it on both V1 and V2 - could passengers crowded out from one, find more space on the other?

The bus configuration has a deliberately dual aspect; seating (and tables) upstairs; fewer seats, more standing spaces downstairs.

Since, from my experience, it takes only 20 minutes to get into central Manchester from the East Lancs park and ride - and only 10 minutes to Salford Uni - standing downstairs for that long should be less of a problem. But if passengers have to stand all the way from Leigh; then clearly there is an issue.

I had envisaged that, once the full route to Central Manchester Hospitals is run, riders travelling Uni-to-Uni would mostly stand; while those carrying on all the way out beyond the M60 would expect a seat (at least once past the park and ride).

But likely the world is never so neat.

Heading to Manchester its the 2nd and 3rd Park and Ride sites you get standing loads from, One of the aims of the Guided Busway was to get people out of their Cars, no one will park up their cars to stand up on a Bus so i do think its an issue that needs to be sorted quickly

 

[nerd]

Heading to Manchester its the 2nd and 3rd Park and Ride sites you get standing loads from, One of the aims of the Guided Busway was to get people out of their Cars, no one will park up their cars to stand up on a Bus so i do think its an issue that needs to be sorted quickly

thanks

Does that mean that the East Lancs park and ride is now picking up more custom? I might have considered that standing from that point inwards (or at least as far as Salford Uni) might not be so problematic. But I agree that the general expectation of former car users is that they will get a seat.

 

[the101]

Heading to Manchester its the 2nd and 3rd Park and Ride sites you get standing loads from, One of the aims of the Guided Busway was to get people out of their Cars, no one will park up their cars to stand up on a Bus so i do think its an issue that needs to be sorted quickly

But from the sounds of it that is exactly what they are doing...

 

[AB93]

thanks

Does that mean that the East Lancs park and ride is now picking up more custom? I might have considered that standing from that point inwards (or at least as far as Salford Uni) might not be so problematic. But I agree that the general expectation of former car users is that they will get a seat.

The East Lancs P&R is the 'third' one along, Y961 XBU refers to the second one, so I don't think so. The East Lancs one's been in the news about lack of use.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I have noticed the Busway Services are getting busy due to other Services finishing at Park and Rides meaning you get their Passengers aswell.. A problem that needs to be addressed.

It's only one hourly service (Stagecoach 32 Wigan - Manchester) that's been curtailed to terminate there. During the peaks, Stagecoach's 34 has peak X34s which go via the park and ride to connect with the 32, so it probably doesn't have that much impact on the V1/V2 at those times.