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Class 387

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158722

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That raises more questions than answers, what prompted the change, out of interest?
Are GN still getting 377/5s then?

Trying to make sense of this is a complete minefield, so trying to clarify:
1) GWR are no longer getting 365s
2) 387101 - 129 are no longer going to GWR, instead they are having 37 new build units (8 already ordered plus 29 extra)
3) 14 of the Porterbrook 20 haven't been ordered yet, however there are suggestions these could also end up on GWR, which in addition to the 9 extra AT300s enables 1)

Also how do the initial GWR electric services to Hayes fit with all this, or are a few 387/1s going to GWR on a short term basis?

Option 3 plus 15 extra sets for GWR to give a total of 29, plus the 8 we assumed were going to be 387130-137 - total 37.

A posting on wnxx (usually very well informed!) has said that 14 of the 20 Porterbrook speculative order are for GWR, plus an extra 15 units (not the full extra 29 on top of the speculative 20, as I suggested earlier).

So, for the confused (like me!)...
387101-129 with TSGN TL, future unconfirmed after 2018/19.
387201-227 with/for TSGN GatEx
387x01-x08 currently building for GWR
387x09-x22 14 units from Porterbrook speculative order, now for GWR
387x23-x37 15 extra units for GWR
387y01-y06 6 units from Porterbrook speculative order, for C2C until 2019.
 
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swt_passenger

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Right now we don't know what the GWR numbering would be. They could be /1 or /3. Originally it would have made sense for GWR 8 to be /1 (130-138 btw) as they are follow on from the 101-129 that GWR was getting. Now that no longer applies the numbers could be anything. 387130-167 or 387301-338 are both equally as valid.

Your correct there is no need for a different operator to have different from sub classes. Doesn't mean it has to be either way. You could argue either point.

Right now it's all guesswork on many front on here. All that has been confirmed is GWR is getting 37 new build 387 meaning another 9 more than currently ordered are to be ordered. That's all.

Thanks for explaining that it isn't confirmed!

My earlier comments about wiki were basically because authors there seem to be exceptionally quick to quote number ranges; and they cannot all be written by people with RSL access... :D
 

Class377/5

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Thanks for explaining that it isn't confirmed!

My earlier comments about wiki were basically because authors there seem to be exceptionally quick to quote number ranges; and they cannot all be written by people with RSL access... :D

Indeed, writing that I undid my own point. We'll have to wait and see, word is testing on GWR will begin very soon.
 

southern442

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So what are you saying? It seems to me to be something along the lines of every journey up to two hours might as well be operated by a pretty bog-standard emu - which is not something that I think most passengers would agree with. Never mind the impact on journey times that being limited to running at 110mph would have to the likes of Bristol.

My point was far more simple than that - my phrasing was a bit messy - but basically I was disagreeing with your statement that a 2+3 configuration was an inner suburban seating configuration. I was making the point that there are countless outer-suburban services that use trains with a 2+3 seating configuration and have done for years.

As for other things mentioned above, I can agree with you to an extent. Some services that are operated with 2+3 configured trains should really have an intercity layout, such as the Portsmouth lines, but a 12-car EMU has more seating capacity than a 10-car intercity train, so several people would miss out on a seat. That is unless they start running 12-car intercity trains anytime soon (which they should really think about doing).

Class 387 trains do not have a 2+3 seating arrangement, they have 2+2 with armrests and tables, much like an intercity train, and so a journey on certain lines such as the Norwich one would not be made worse by running these trains. However I can obviously agree with you that 387's shouldn't do Bristol services as this is a 125mph line that should have 125mph trains (the GEML is not 125mph though, so a 387 wouldn't impact journey times).

Eh? They have a different shape but are the same? Some slight contradiction there, surely? Never mind that the seat pitch and legroom is also different. Or are you yet another of the people who knows what the seats in an IEP will be like to sit in, despite never having sat in one?

They are a different shape but they are the same basic style of seat, manufactured by Fanisa. They are basically the same but with square headrests instead of the weird ironing board shaped ones. This is what leads me to believe that they will be uncomfortable, as I whilst I haven't sat in an IEP, I have sat in the seat that the IEP uses, and I didn't find them particularly comfortable. My predictions could be wrong though, I'm fairly sure they won't be (given what has been said in some rail magazines press releases) but I might be.

Which might have some slight effect but most would be open while people get on and off the train.

In the same way that they are open on regular intercity trains I would think.

I doubt you will find a single word about GWML services in a Wessex route study. The Western one perhaps? I seem to recall discussion of lengthening 5-car IEPs to 6-car to create 12-car formations to meet demand from Swindon, but for reference purposes might you care to point out the relevant section of a document that runs to almost 300 pages?
I think swt_passenger was referring to the use of 450s on the Portsmouth line.

The rest of your post I largely agree with. As I mentioned earlier, rather than cram more seats in at the expense of comfort, I think we should run longer 12-car intercity trains, and more frequently (difficult on current rail lines I know) and to other destinations on new lines.
 

AM9

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... You make it sound as though there are no other services running between Liverpool Street and intermediate stations towards Norwich. What do you think the semi-fast emus that leave Liverpool Street for Ipswich at xx.02 are doing or the xx.18s to Clacton via Colchester, the xx.38s to Colchester Town and the xx.48s to Braintree? They are performing exactly the same job as the 350s do on the WCML.

The 100 & 110mph 350s on the WCML run to New Street (five miles further than LST-NRW) in about 2 Hrs (similar to the GEML service)
The 110mph 350s on the WCML run to Crewe (nearly 50 miles further than LST-NRW) in about 2.75Hrs (over 30 mins longer than the GEML service)
The WCML also has slower trains running from EUS to Tring (~32m), MKC (~50m), and Northampton (~65m) - so shorter services not unlike the Colchesters, Clactons and Ipswichs.

Are you now going to advocate use of 387s on Virgin services between London and Birmingham? They seem to be about to become the new 'do every job going' train of choice for some on this forum. What about the poor old Class 444...?

350s already run from EUS to BHM. The 444s are no longer available but 23m versions of desiros are, e.g. 380, plus other manufacturers offering like the 385s, the new Siemens Verve desiros and versions of Aventras are all avoid end doors and that will give UK purchasers a much better choice.


If faced with the choice of a emu - and I doubt any TOC would fancy running a 'sparsely-filled' 12-car formation all the way to Norwich from London, given what it would cost them - or an intercity-configured train vaguely resembling those currently provided between Norwich and London, a lot of passengers will quickly work out which one they prefer - and it won't be a 387.

They can be 4, 8 or 12-car as required, but the trend (and demands) are for the LM equivalent trains to be extended to 8 or 12 in many cases because of increasing loadings. I doubt that the GEML will fare any different given that it is a much more commuter intensive route. As for the passengers, refer to my earlier post, - they may get the choice of limited or no available seating on whatever 'inter-city' style trains there are, or a seat on a modern EMU that can do the journey in the same time on that 100mph (max) railway that the GEML is.
 

387star

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so to confirm the porterbrook order for 20 (some of which are going to C2C short term) is completely unrelated to the 29 new build 387s GWR are now getting (instead of the 29 off GTR) in addition to the 8 GWR were always getting?

CORRECTION just seen the post above... seems a mixture of the porterbrook order and an add on order then for GWR in addition to the 8 currently under construction...
 
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jimm

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You seemed to suggest it would be unlikely for SWT to be required to use more 2+3 layout 12 car 450s, and for a counter example I simply replied that the Wessex route study consultation says the opposite. It is the Wessex route study that covers SWT, as you well know, this from the draft, page 87:

Maybe if you had removed my line about 387s to Bristol, I might have understood what you were driving at. And just because someone at Network Rail thinks it is a terrific wheeze to boost capacity, i'm not sure the SWT marketing team, keen to keep on the right side of business passengers from Southampton paying £132 for a first class anytime ticket, would see more Class 450s as an attractive proposition compared with a 444.

Right now it's all guesswork on many front on here. All that has been confirmed is GWR is getting 37 new build 387 meaning another 9 more than currently ordered are to be ordered. That's all.

Confirmed where? Posts here or on WNXX are not official announcements, nor are stories in railway magazines taking a flyer because their deadline is looming - e.g. Today's Railways' recent story about TPE ordering CAF stock - for which there is still zero official conformation from TPE...

My point was far more simple than that - my phrasing was a bit messy - but basically I was disagreeing with your statement that a 2+3 configuration was an inner suburban seating configuration. I was making the point that there are countless outer-suburban services that use trains with a 2+3 seating configuration and have done for years.

As for other things mentioned above, I can agree with you to an extent. Some services that are operated with 2+3 configured trains should really have an intercity layout, such as the Portsmouth lines, but a 12-car EMU has more seating capacity than a 10-car intercity train, so several people would miss out on a seat. That is unless they start running 12-car intercity trains anytime soon (which they should really think about doing).

Yes, 2+3 seats feature on some stock on outer-suburban services, but frankly they shouldn't when 2+3 is tolerable for a short hop but not some of the journeys they are appearing on.

As I noted above, a 12-car 387 formation seats maybe two or three dozen people more than a nine-car Class 801, which is hardly a game-changer, neve mind the different passenger environment between the two types. A 10-car 801 would seat more than the 387 formation, but would be too long for Liverpool Street's existing platforms and maybe others along the line to Norwich.

Class 387 trains do not have a 2+3 seating arrangement, they have 2+2 with armrests and tables, much like an intercity train, and so a journey on certain lines such as the Norwich one would not be made worse by running these trains. However I can obviously agree with you that 387's shouldn't do Bristol services as this is a 125mph line that should have 125mph trains (the GEML is not 125mph though, so a 387 wouldn't impact journey times).

Intercity trains do not have doors at 1/3, 2/3 positions. They have end vestibules which tend to do a rather better job of keeping cold winter air at bay than two large door openings in the middle of where passengers are sitting.

A manufacturer will happily optimise a train's performance to match the routes it will work. The Bombardier Aventra is being built as a 90mph train for Crossrail but the platform is marketed as being available for speeds up to 125mph as well, with any door configuration you like, and Hitachi has already built all kinds of A-trains for various customers. Siemens will presumably be able to offer a 444-alike version of its new emu design should someone ask. All of which would be far better suited to the Norwich route than a 387-type train.
 
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Class377/5

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Confirmed where? Posts here or on WNXX are not official announcements, nor are stories in railway magazines taking a flyer because their deadline is looming - e.g. Today's Railways' recent story about TPE ordering CAF stock - for which there is still zero official conformation from TPE...

Simple link to confirmation from those well informed that an existing and already placed order has been expanded. Your trying to compare oranges and apples as the 387 order has already been agreed and announced some time ago where as the CAF is still yet to be signed deal.
 

westcoaster

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Option 3 plus 15 extra sets for GWR to give a total of 29, plus the 8 we assumed were going to be 387130-137 - total 37.

A posting on wnxx (usually very well informed!) has said that 14 of the 20 Porterbrook speculative order are for GWR, plus an extra 15 units (not the full extra 29 on top of the speculative 20, as I suggested earlier).

So, for the confused (like me!)...
387101-129 with TSGN TL, future unconfirmed after 2018/19.
387201-227 with/for TSGN GatEx
387x01-x08 currently building for GWR
387x09-x22 14 units from Porterbrook speculative order, now for GWR
387x23-x37 15 extra units for GWR
387y01-y06 6 units from Porterbrook speculative order, for C2C until 2019.

387101-129 to EMT for Corby runs maybe ! 2018/9 the wires should be up.
211 just spent some time at Cauldwell for type training for fitters and rsm's. Plus Cauldwell will need some form of allocation to keep it open.
 

southern442

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387101-129 to EMT for Corby runs maybe ! 2018/9 the wires should be up.
211 just spent some time at Cauldwell for type training for fitters and rsm's. Plus Cauldwell will need some form of allocation to keep it open.

So the Thameslink units aren't going to GWR now? Why not? It seems as though they have over complicated the whole thing. So, instead of transferring 29 spare trains over to GWR, they are just going to leave the spare trains lying around and just build another load of exactly the same trains for GWR use? How is that logical? Am I missing something?

29 spare trains. GWR need 29 trains of that exact specification. So rather than use those trains that are there and waiting to go any time now, they build 29 exact copies and use them instead?
 
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jimm

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Simple link to confirmation from those well informed that an existing and already placed order has been expanded. Your trying to compare oranges and apples as the 387 order has already been agreed and announced some time ago where as the CAF is still yet to be signed deal.

Simple link to what confirmation?

There is no announcement from Porterbrook, Bombardier or GWR.

The last announcement about 387s on the Porterbrook site is the one from last November about the order for 80 more Class 387 coaches. From which order it has since been confirmed that six four-car sets will go to c2c from this autumn until 2019, when c2c will get the first of its new trains.

So unless you can show me some actual official confirmation, then I'll stick to my view that there isn't any confirmation of an expansion of that Porterbrook order for 387s yet, just the same as there isn't any confirmation yet that CAF will actually be delivering anything to TPE.
 

158722

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387101-129 to EMT for Corby runs maybe ! 2018/9 the wires should be up.
211 just spent some time at Cauldwell for type training for fitters and rsm's. Plus Cauldwell will need some form of allocation to keep it open.

I was actually thinking that some of the 387/1s could end up on Corby turns.
19x remain with TSGN for GN services, vice the expected 19 377/5s.
10x for St Pancras-Corby services with either EMT or TSGN - wasn't there some thought that these could/would transfer operator? The current hourly service requires only 3 diagrams, going to half-hourly would require 6 (or 5 with some very tight turn-around times), so 3x 8-car diagrams and 3x 4-car diagrams requiring 9 sets would seem just about do-able from the 10.

Not been keeping up with Corby issues - neither how/if electrification is planned/proceeding or what the expected service pattern or operator will be.
 

NotATrainspott

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So the Thameslink units aren't going to GWR now? Why not? It seems as though they have over complicated the whole thing. So, instead of transferring 29 spare trains over to GWR, they are just going to leave the spare trains lying around and just build another load of exactly the same trains for GWR use? How is that logical? Am I missing something?

29 spare trains. GWR need 29 trains of that exact specification. So rather than use those trains that are there and waiting to go any time now, they build 29 exact copies and use them instead?

If more trains are being ordered that's because a ROSCO thinks it's financially worthwhile. It makes pretty good sense to try to buy up all the remaining Class 387 production before Bombardier really do have to move on, as there are plenty of places where these trains could go. It would be easier to find work for an extra 29 387s than it would be to find work for the same number of new Aventra trains, unless an operator is planning a major fleet replacement. Even if there's a surplus of EMUs in the short term it won't be long until all of them need used up. At best, it'll be extra demand for 12 car services in the South East and at worst, it'll be the need to get EMUs to take on newly-electrified services in South Wales and on the TransPennine route.
 

158722

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So the Thameslink units aren't going to GWR now? Why not? It seems as though they have over complicated the whole thing. So, instead of transferring 29 spare trains over to GWR, they are just going to leave the spare trains lying around and just build another load of exactly the same trains for GWR use? How is that logical? Am I missing something?

29 spare trains. GWR need 29 trains of that exact specification. So rather than use those trains that are there and waiting to go any time now, they build 29 exact copies and use them instead?

Do you really think the DfT and the modern railway as a whole, would have 29 relatively new units sat around doing nothing? There will be a plan - and as we are not privy to that plan, we have much to discuss on the forum about the various options... Now, isn't that what the forum is for?!

GWR are still expected to get their total of 37 new 387s (as has been mentioned several times, but not officially confirmed) and perhaps their expected 21 class 365s too. The extra units ordered do however leave a wide range of options open for the 29 387/1s and possibly whatever they could be used to cascade.
 

AM9

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If more trains are being ordered that's because a ROSCO thinks it's financially worthwhile. It makes pretty good sense to try to buy up all the remaining Class 387 production before Bombardier really do have to move on, as there are plenty of places where these trains could go. It would be easier to find work for an extra 29 387s than it would be to find work for the same number of new Aventra trains, unless an operator is planning a major fleet replacement. Even if there's a surplus of EMUs in the short term it won't be long until all of them need used up. At best, it'll be extra demand for 12 car services in the South East and at worst, it'll be the need to get EMUs to take on newly-electrified services in South Wales and on the TransPennine route.

Not only that but given the increasing difficulties in getting suitably trained drivers, it owuld be more cost effective to minimise the numbers of different types and configurations. So other than DOO/DCO considerations, 387s are basically the same wherever they are deployed. Start faffing around because some passengers want end doors etc., and the roll-out costs and potential delays go through the roof.
 

physics34

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now these 387/1s currently with TL are in limbo, ive been wondering if they should be kept by Southern for the early withdrawal of the 313 or 455 fleets......... ;)
 

Peter Sarf

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.......

387s instead of 365s would only really make sense if someone decides they do want a single type of emu for all the GWR Thames Valley services, that GWR now needs 66 four-car emus instead of 58 - before a single electric service has run - and that they don't mind using a brand-new 110mph unit to shuttle up and down between Slough and Windsor all day.

.......................

Well my contribution to coming up with a guess to fit the plans that fits the guesses :-

GWR get 66 x 387s but of course six of them would only appear once c2c has finished with them in 2019 (at the earliest my cynicism says). Until then 60 is not much more than the originally required 58 EMUs. By 2019 there might be a firmer case for the c2c six to come to GWR or Porterbrook will quite likely have found a new use for them.

I was never a fan of the fleet of 365s being split and also the idea of two EMU fleets on GWR. So I will cling onto the idea of GWR having solely 387s. Makes sense if the leasing costs are similar enough (365 vs 387).

But perhaps the fact that GWR are taking so long to accept the original 29 387/1s means that perhaps Porterbrook (?) have had a better offer from another Train Operating Company.

Another brainstorm is that perhaps GTR will hang on to all 29 of the 387/1s for longer than originally planned. I mean until nearly all the 700s are delivered. That prompts the thought that 319s and/or 377/5s might leave Thameslink first. Be that to replace EMUs on GN or not I do not have enough imagination to guess at.

Now where do the 365s go. I always thought they should stay together and go to Southeastern where the similar (maintenance wise) 465s and 466s are.

Perhaps the 365s days are numbered. Makes more room for my beloved 442s :oops:.

PS Don't worry about it all adding up properly. Its mainly just my thought provoking stuff (that Class377/5 does not have to read if he has run out of desks, also cos I reckon he knows the answers !).

PS2 As for the arguments about what constitutes an intercity train or route. Since when has the passengers feeling had anything to do with it !. I feel sure that, for operational reasons - like capacity, EMUs are going to get more and more likely. Of course 442s have end doors don't they ;).
 
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ScotGG

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Why does SE always seem to have old stock suggested without SDO that is pretty essential to have a 12 car metro network?

Ahh, it requires subsidy some say for bloody HS1, which is about as relevant for most metro passengers as the great western line. Franchising is failing SE badly.
 

swt_passenger

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now these 387/1s currently with TL are in limbo, ive been wondering if they should be kept by Southern for the early withdrawal of the 313 or 455 fleets......... ;)

I don't think you are the first to suggest this, looking back over the last couple of days posts. You need to be more off the wall... :D
 

samuelmorris

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If we're still playing the speculation game, how about moving 365s to West Anglia to replace the 317/5s? :P In all honesty I'd find it very surprising if the 365s were retired inside of 20 years from now. As a sizeable fleet of 100mph units recently refreshed to a fair standard that could potentially have dual-voltage capability reinstated and to my knowledge are in reasonable condition, it'd be absolutely mad to prematurely ditch them considering what else is running around on the network.
As much as joining them with the other Networkers on SE seems logical, they will still be a bit of a downgrade from the 375s on longer-distance route, and their 100mph capability will be wasted if running alongside 465/466s. Not that such issues have affected rolling stock transfers before, but is there room for all 40 of them down there?
 

158722

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As much as joining them with the other Networkers on SE seems logical, they will still be a bit of a downgrade from the 375s on longer-distance route, and their 100mph capability will be wasted if running alongside 465/466s. Not that such issues have affected rolling stock transfers before, but is there room for all 40 of them down there?

Is anyone able to confirm the actual technical status of the 365s in terms of AC/DC? From what I understand, only the first 16 units were ever used on DC and thus fully kitted out - is this still so? And the balance of 24 units from 365517 onwards? Are they able to be DC enabled easily or have subsequent changes to them or the first batch made this unlikely, expensive, complicated?
 

jon0844

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Wherever the 365s go (and even with their 'dumbed down' interior refresh they're still great trains) I do hope they'll one day get air conditioning, as once mooted by FCC.

I know that probably won't happen, but it's the one thing that stops them being the perfect trains and with plenty of life left in them (as said above, no doubt 20 years or more).
 

ScotGG

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As much as joining them with the other Networkers on SE seems logical, they will still be a bit of a downgrade from the 375s on longer-distance route, and their 100mph capability will be wasted if running alongside 465/466s. Not that such issues have affected rolling stock transfers before, but is there room for all 40 of them down there?

Apparently 365s aren't moving to SE but if they did it would be to replace the long distance Networkers (465/9s) not 375s. That would then allow 465/9s to boost metro route services as many are 6/8/10 when they should ideally be 8 (Vic routes) or 12 car (Dartford and Hayes lines if Woolwich Dockyard is ever sorted).

But freeing up more networkers for Metro routes does nothing about their lack of SDO. Maybe the hope is that if/when TfL takeover they will find a proper refurb (much needed) to create more space inside (goodbye 3x2 seating?) and also add SDO or rebuild Woolwich Dockyard station for full 12-car metro on the three Dartford lines and Hayes.
 

hwl

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Apparently 365s aren't moving to SE but if they did it would be to replace the long distance Networkers (465/9s) not 375s. That would then allow 465/9s to boost metro route services as many are 6/8/10 when they should ideally be 8 (Vic routes) or 12 car (Dartford and Hayes lines if Woolwich Dockyard is ever sorted).

But freeing up more networkers for Metro routes does nothing about their lack of SDO. Maybe the hope is that if/when TfL takeover they will find a proper refurb (much needed) to create more space inside (goodbye 3x2 seating?) and also add SDO or rebuild Woolwich Dockyard station for full 12-car metro on the three Dartford lines and Hayes.

SDO is only an issue for services that stop at Woolwich Dockyard.

Dartford via Abbey Wood will benefit from Crossrail in 2 years time. The area arround Woolwich Dockyard is getting redeevloped so extending from 11 car to 12 car platform length could be done then.

The networkers need a SWT 455 style interior refit so larger vestibules and pletny of grab handles as well.

Most of the extra units (25x 377) SE receives effectively just compensates for the routes that return in 2018 from Thameslink so there isn't much real capacity gain on existing services Hence Extra units beyond this and needing to justify with DfT in a direct award.
 

Class377/5

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So this is now a cascade thread?

So the Thameslink units aren't going to GWR now? Why not? It seems as though they have over complicated the whole thing. So, instead of transferring 29 spare trains over to GWR, they are just going to leave the spare trains lying around and just build another load of exactly the same trains for GWR use? How is that logical? Am I missing something?

29 spare trains. GWR need 29 trains of that exact specification. So rather than use those trains that are there and waiting to go any time now, they build 29 exact copies and use them instead?

Your missing most of the pieces of the puzzle hence your confusion. There are no spare trains btw.

Simple link to what confirmation?

There is no announcement from Porterbrook, Bombardier or GWR.

Why do Porterbook or GWR need to announce anything? Nothing has really changed as the for them the orders are existing. Bombardier tends to be slow on the announcements of of its follow on options.

The last announcement about 387s on the Porterbrook site is the one from last November about the order for 80 more Class 387 coaches. From which order it has since been confirmed that six four-car sets will go to c2c from this autumn until 2019, when c2c will get the first of its new trains.

So unless you can show me some actual official confirmation, then I'll stick to my view that there isn't any confirmation of an expansion of that Porterbrook order for 387s yet, just the same as there isn't any confirmation yet that CAF will actually be delivering anything to TPE.

So in other words your sticking your fingers in your ears and saying lalalala to anything bar official. Try to remember that in future when you ask for what's going on then.

You have made my point, one is an existing order (the 387s) where one is not an existing order (CAF and TPE haven't signed a deal, just CAF is lead bidder). The two cannot be compared as one is real and the other currently not.

now these 387/1s currently with TL are in limbo, ive been wondering if they should be kept by Southern for the early withdrawal of the 313 or 455 fleets......... ;)

Nope. Early withdrawn isn not planned (however how can units in the latter end of thier life be considered early withdrawn is beyond me).
 

physics34

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So this is now a cascade thread?



Your missing most of the pieces of the puzzle hence your confusion. There are no spare trains btw.



Why do Porterbook or GWR need to announce anything? Nothing has really changed as the for them the orders are existing. Bombardier tends to be slow on the announcements of of its follow on options.



So in other words your sticking your fingers in your ears and saying lalalala to anything bar official. Try to remember that in future when you ask for what's going on then.

You have made my point, one is an existing order (the 387s) where one is not an existing order (CAF and TPE haven't signed a deal, just CAF is lead bidder). The two cannot be compared as one is real and the other currently not.



Nope. Early withdrawn isn not planned (however how can units in the latter end of thier life be considered early withdrawn is beyond me).

"Earlier than planned withdrawal" :lol:
 

hwl

Established Member
Joined
5 Feb 2012
Messages
8,236
well, yeh, there is no specific date but you cant see them going much beyond the end of the current Southern franchise.

It's always been regarded as a problem for the next franchise. It would also need some additional stock post East Croydon / Windmill Bridge rebuild in CP6 so make sense to align the 455/313 replacement then as well.
 

MrB

Member
Joined
3 Jan 2016
Messages
389
Location
London
Maybe the hope is that if/when TfL takeover they will find a proper refurb (much needed) to create more space inside (goodbye 3x2 seating?)

I believe I read somewhere that networkers can't have 2x2 seating, something to do with safety/crash worthiness IIRC.
 
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