TPE Class 802 on WCML question

[thenorthern]

This may seem a strange question but given that TransPennine Express are ordering some Class 802s for their express services will they be allowed to reach their full potential on the West Coast Main Line of 125 mph or will they be limited to 110 mph given that the train dosen't have a tilt function.

 

[ainsworth74]

As far as I'm aware the units ordered so far as for TPE North and will not be used on the WCML. That may change of course once it is clearer what TPE are ordering for their next tranche of new trains.

 

[Bletchleyite]

If for any reason they were, they would presently be limited to 110mph. But if TPE's WCML units are non-tilt - and I think there is a very high chance that they will be - I can see them trying to work with Network Rail to increase that so far as feasible.

 

[thenorthern]

If GNER get their way and have TASS introduced between Newcastle and Edinburgh TPE will have shot themselves in the foot not ordering train that could tilt and allowing faster speeds.

 

[Bletchleyite]

If GNER get their way and have TASS introduced between Newcastle and Edinburgh TPE will have shot themselves in the foot not ordering train that could tilt and allowing faster speeds.

That's 125mph non-tilt, mostly, is it not?

Also consider the comfort issues a tilt profile causes. The AT300 has a nice, square profile without shoulder-room issues.

 

[Philip Phlopp]

If GNER get their way and have TASS introduced between Newcastle and Edinburgh TPE will have shot themselves in the foot not ordering train that could tilt and allowing faster speeds.

No. GNER will have given themselves all that extra work and trouble introducing tilting trains for little or no gain, almost everything else on the line will be Hitachi stock, mainly AT300/IEP stock with some AT200 units running to North Berwick.

The chances of being able to increase the line speed to EPS125 or EPS140 with TASS is high. The chances of being able to run at 125mph or 140mph is slim to non existent. You can only go as fast as the train in front lets you go.

 

[edwin_m]

If GNER get their way and have TASS introduced between Newcastle and Edinburgh TPE will have shot themselves in the foot not ordering train that could tilt and allowing faster speeds.

Newcastle to Edinburgh is only one train per hour so probably not worthwhile to buy a much more complicated and costly train just for that.

There might be some gains from tilting south of Newcastle but these would be much smaller. TPE need bi-mode operation because the core Manchester-Leeds section isn't electrified, and there are no tilting bi-modes available. TPE will probably save more time from using electric power north of York and west of Manchester than they would by buying a tilting diesel.

 

[thenorthern]

I do wonder though when we will have a 2nd generation of tilting train as back in 2000 the tilting train seemed a big modern futuristic thing that we would all travel on one day but since then only two types have been built (Class 221 and Class 390) and around 1/4 of the trains built have had their tilt disabled. Also since 2004 I don't think there has been any new TASS equipment installed.

The heavily over budget early 2000s West Coast Main Line upgrade which saw many sections of the line closed for long periods may be an explanation for this.

 

[RobShipway]

To get new stock it is quicker and less expensive to have it without tilt installed. Other than countries mentioned in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tilting_train that are using tilt trains is there any other countries using them or that have ordered them?

I think that the answer to my above question is going to be no, a) Due to cost and b) travelling times for trains have been able to be reduced more so than using tilt with faster speeds on the straight parts of route lines where speed can be done.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I do wonder though when we will have a 2nd generation of tilting train as back in 2000 the tilting train seemed a big modern futuristic thing that we would all travel on one day but since then only two types have been built (Class 221 and Class 390) and around 1/4 of the trains built have had their tilt disabled. Also since 2004 I don't think there has been any new TASS equipment installed.

There seem to be 2 camps - those that think tilt is fantastic and essential, and those that don't want it anywhere near their railway.
NR/SRA/DfT have passed up several opportunities to deploy tilting trains (eg TP routes, MML, Devon banks), and opted for non-tilt solutions instead.
There appears to be no likelihood of expanding the tilt route system.

Even the WCML system may have a short life left, with the arrival of HS2.
"Classic compatible" trains are unlikely to tilt, so that the minutes gained on HS2 will be dissipated further north by running at 110mph instead of 125.
WCML South may find it has to reduce to 110mph to maximise the frequency of new regional/local trains after the long-distance services are diverted to HS2.

The recent HS2 studies into northern high-speed routes seems to be bending towards new (straight) replacement lengths of the WCML.
The TASS/tilt system seems to have been a very successful technology and it is a pity it has not been exploited more.
I'm fairly sure it didn't have much to do with the cost overruns on the WCRM programme.
The track and OHLE would have to have been renewed and realigned anyway.

What is daft is Voyagers running around on XC routes with tilt disabled, while TPE run non-tilt trains on routes equipped with TASS.
The TPE order for class 185s (and then 350s) was a key point in the "rejection" of tilt.
Interestingly, tilt on the continent is primarily used to raise line speeds at quite a modest level (eg running at 160kph rather than 120kph), rather than for high-speed 200kph services as on the WCML.

Finally, the next round of bids for the ICWC franchise next year will determine the future of tilt in the UK.
If TPE's new order for 12 WCML trains includes 125mph tilt it would put some more momentum into the technology, and so would a plan to implement VT's desire to run at higher speeds than 125mph, to exploit the capability of the 390s.

 

[notlob.divad]

In reference to Tilt had it not recently been published in one of the future Transpennine Mainline / HS3 / Northern Powerhouse rail / George's current plaything*, reports that a tilt option was being considered as an upgrade to the North and South TPE routes.

I don't necessarily see the Bi-modes not having it as a shot in the foot although if you could have had both it would have been excellent. I would say:

If TPE's new order for 12 WCML trains includes 125mph tilt it would put some more momentum into the technology,

and point towards the medium term thinking with respect to Transpennine upgrades. However if they are ordered without tilt, I think it may signal the beginning of the end of tilt in the UK for the reasons LNW-GW Joint makes.

Adding new straight sections of track to both the Northern WCML and Transpennine lines would have the additional benefit of increasing freight / local capacity by adding in passing loops as well as decreasing the long distance journey times.

*Delete as appropriate

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

In reference to Tilt had it not recently been published in one of the future Transpennine Mainline / HS3 / Northern Powerhouse rail / George's current plaything*, reports that a tilt option was being considered as an upgrade to the North and South TPE routes.

Yes, the HS2 folk seem to think the WCML will lose 390s after 2026, and they were suggested for reuse on TP South (if it has been electrified by then).
That speaks volumes about the future WCML.
You'd think 390s would be running more frequent but shorter-distance services when HS2 opens, or running on the WCML north of Crewe.
But somebody obviously thinks they will be surplus to requirements by then, which points to the removal of tilt.
I don't think it means TP South will be equipped with TASS!
There's definitely a danger that some places (Chester, Stoke, maybe Liverpool) will get slower (non-tilt) services from Euston after HS2 opens.

 

[thenorthern]

Yes, the HS2 folk seem to think the WCML will lose 390s after 2026, and they were suggested for reuse on TP South (if it has been electrified by then).
That speaks volumes about the future WCML.
You'd think 390s would be running more frequent but shorter-distance services when HS2 opens, or running on the WCML north of Crewe.
But somebody obviously thinks they will be surplus to requirements by then, which points to the removal of tilt.
I don't think it means TP South will be equipped with TASS!
There's definitely a danger that some places (Chester, Stoke, maybe Liverpool) will get slower (non-tilt) services from Euston after HS2 opens.

It will be interesting to see how long the Class 390s do last as they are currently 14 years old and they have stayed on the West Coast Main Line longer than some Class 90s managed although the Class 86 and 87s managed much longer.

 

[Greybeard33]

I find tilting trains to the British loading gauge claustrophobic, especially when people are standing in the aisles (as often happens on XC Voyagers). And I find the tilting motion disconcerting, although I am not prone to travel sickness.

I prefer to travel in TPE's 350s, with their more spacious, airy saloon, than in VTWC's 390s, despite the slower journey. And 22x's are my least favourite trains on the network, with the additional annoyance of the engine noise and fumes. It is particularly irritating to have to put up with the cramped, slope-sided saloon in the non-tilt versions or on the non-tilt routes.

 

[The Planner]

Cannot see any reason why the WCML will drop to 110 or the 390s moving away from it.

 

[WatcherZero]

What has been said about the TPE 802's which distinguishes them from the GWR 802's is that they will have 'at least as powerful' engine tuning but larger fuel tanks and more powerful brakes.

Implication seems to be that if MTU can come up with a more powerful engine version that fits in the near future they will use it.

 

[RobShipway]

I find tilting trains to the British loading gauge claustrophobic, especially when people are standing in the aisles (as often happens on XC Voyagers). And I find the tilting motion disconcerting, although I am not prone to travel sickness.

I prefer to travel in TPE's 350s, with their more spacious, airy saloon, than in VTWC's 390s, despite the slower journey. And 22x's are my least favourite trains on the network, with the additional annoyance of the engine noise and fumes. It is particularly irritating to have to put up with the cramped, slope-sided saloon in the non-tilt versions or on the non-tilt routes.

The XC Voyagers do not tilt as they have had the tilt removed. The only Voyagers with tilt enabled are the VWC Voyagers.

I am suspecting that TPE may order Siemens built ICE-T style train which is Hybrid for the WCML and will be the remaining 25 trains that TPE will order and be 5 or 6 car trains.

 

[irish_rail]

Cannot see any reason why the WCML will drop to 110 or the 390s moving away from it.

I can, when people vote with their feet and choose to pay less to get from the north west to London cheaper, but in a very slightly longer time, and HS2 trains run round empty, showing up the white elephant for what it is. Be far too embarrassing. Far better to slow down WCML services and introduce inferior rolling stock to force folk onto HS2 :roll:

 

[CosherB]

I am suspecting that TPE may order Siemens built ICE-T style train which is Hybrid for the WCML and will be the remaining 25 trains that TPE will order and be 5 or 6 car trains.

More "blue sky" thinking?!

 

[Bletchleyite]

We know TPE are negotiating with CAF and possibly Hitachi. I doubt Siemens are in any way involved.

I would be very surprised if the new EMUs tilt. I would expect simple 125mph conventional EMUs, most probably 23m. Wouldn't bet on the door layout.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[Philip Phlopp]

The XC Voyagers do not tilt as they have had the tilt removed. The only Voyagers with tilt enabled are the VWC Voyagers.

I am suspecting that TPE may order Siemens built ICE-T style train which is Hybrid for the WCML and will be the remaining 25 trains that TPE will order and be 5 or 6 car trains.

Siemens have never actually offered tilting stock for the UK market though, the engineering challenges to scale an ICE-T style unit down to fit into the British loading gauge are enormous.

I can tell you right now that the bogies on an ICE-T unit are out of gauge for the Britain, they would collect up the first platform or greaser they encountered. That would need a complete bogie re-design or an entirely new family of bogies, which is enormously costly, and not remotely affordable within the possible tilting train orders.

The remaining engineering challenges are no less enormous - tilt capable pantographs are ludicrously complicated - you know the BR/BW High Speed pantograph on a Class 390 moves counter to the tilt using a motor and belt system (though a distinct improvement on the medieval torture implement BR Research conjured up for APT-P). The degree of tilt needed (typically 6 to 8 degrees) dictates the body profile, and that is again would be another completely new or heavily redesigned body.

The body itself needs to be capable of withstanding more torsional force to cope with bogies tilting at fractionally different speeds, so any existing design would need further modification.

The interior shape is vastly different to, say, the Class 380 or Class 700 families, so bespoke interior trim is needed. There's more wiring for the tilt system to route and so it goes on.

ICE-T for the UK, I'd guess in development costs and certification alone, not production cost, just the development and certification costs to get the design ready to build and then into service, Siemens would be looking at a bill of at least £100m, maybe double that. It doesn't make any sort of financial sense, none at all.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The Siemens product on offer for a 125mph EMU in the UK is the Desiro Verve, in any case, a suburban doored high speed version of the Scottish Desiros. Nice kit (and has a real InterCity feel despite the door layout). Massive, massive windows, too, almost like the Swiss narrow gauge scenic stock.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[Sparks807Evo]

The Siemens product on offer for a 125mph EMU in the UK is the Desiro Verve, in any case, a suburban doored high speed version of the Scottish Desiros. Nice kit (and has a real InterCity feel despite the door layout). Massive, massive windows, too, almost like the Swiss narrow gauge scenic stock.

I quite like the look of the Verve - although there is just the model from May 2015 at the moment in terms of impressions. Still think TPE might end up getting some considering they've already had good experience with Siemens products, and the Verve seems to fit the bill.

 

[TheKnightWho]

I can, when people vote with their feet and choose to pay less to get from the north west to London cheaper, but in a very slightly longer time, and HS2 trains run round empty, showing up the white elephant for what it is. Be far too embarrassing. Far better to slow down WCML services and introduce inferior rolling stock to force folk onto HS2 :roll:

Good old conspiracy theories when you run out of real things to say! It does amaze me the lengths you people will go to to avoid being written off as irrelevant or wrong.

High speed rail sure has done terribly in other countries, right?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Siemens have never actually offered tilting stock for the UK market though, the engineering challenges to scale an ICE-T style unit down to fit into the British loading gauge are enormous.

I can tell you right now that the bogies on an ICE-T unit are out of gauge for the Britain, they would collect up the first platform or greaser they encountered. That would need a complete bogie re-design or an entirely new family of bogies, which is enormously costly, and not remotely affordable within the possible tilting train orders.

The remaining engineering challenges are no less enormous - tilt capable pantographs are ludicrously complicated - you know the BR/BW High Speed pantograph on a Class 390 moves counter to the tilt using a motor and belt system (though a distinct improvement on the medieval torture implement BR Research conjured up for APT-P). The degree of tilt needed (typically 6 to 8 degrees) dictates the body profile, and that is again would be another completely new or heavily redesigned body.

The body itself needs to be capable of withstanding more torsional force to cope with bogies tilting at fractionally different speeds, so any existing design would need further modification.

The interior shape is vastly different to, say, the Class 380 or Class 700 families, so bespoke interior trim is needed. There's more wiring for the tilt system to route and so it goes on.

ICE-T for the UK, I'd guess in development costs and certification alone, not production cost, just the development and certification costs to get the design ready to build and then into service, Siemens would be looking at a bill of at least £100m, maybe double that. It doesn't make any sort of financial sense, none at all.

Have the costs of converting to UIC gauge ever actually been explored?

 

[Bletchleyite]

I quite like the look of the Verve - although there is just the model from May 2015 at the moment in terms of impressions.

The interior would likely look like an upgraded Class 380, which despite being a suburban EMU have a quality InterCity feel to them.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Have the costs of converting to UIC gauge ever actually been explored?

I think it would suffice to say that they would be massive - much more than the money saved by being able to buy off the shelf rolling stock.

 

[Philip Phlopp]

Have the costs of converting to UIC gauge ever actually been explored?

Tens of billions of pounds, maybe hundreds of billions.

Everything needs re-done - track spacing needs increased, bridges need rebuilt, tunnels need rebored, platforms need moved, lines need to be lowered, signalling needs moved, OLE needs moved, level crossings adjusted, signal boxes demolished/moved. It would be a colossal exercise.

It's all largely pointless once electrification plods further along, electric stock whether it's for China, UK, France or anywhere else that uses 25kV AC 50Hz is pretty much the same under the floor - same pantograph, same transformer, same electronic control gear, same motors, same bogies. It's only the body that's different, and it's the (relatively) cheap bit.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

ICE-T for the UK, I'd guess in development costs and certification alone, not production cost, just the development and certification costs to get the design ready to build and then into service, Siemens would be looking at a bill of at least £100m, maybe double that. It doesn't make any sort of financial sense, none at all.

If you are right, and I'm sure you are, the same applies to any new tilting design (except for more Pendolinos where Alstom has done the work once).
So CAF, Siemens, Hitachi and Bombardier all face the same issues/costs with one of their designs.
So for me, it's either more Pendolinos at 125mph, or 110mph for anything else, whatever the PR says.

 

[Philip Phlopp]

If you are right, and I'm sure you are, the same applies to any new tilting design (except for more Pendolinos where Alstom has done the work once).
So CAF, Siemens, Hitachi and Bombardier all face the same issues/costs with one of their designs.
So for me, it's either more Pendolinos at 125mph, or 110mph for anything else, whatever the PR says.

Bombardier have a tilting design with previous type approval, they scrapped the jigs but for the cost of a new set of jigs, they would be able to do a new build Super Voyager.

If CAF or Hitachi (or even Siemens, if they've something that's absent from their bogie catalogue) have a tilting bogie design that can fit in our loading gauge, then their job becomes much easier, design a tilt profile body that suits the tilt angle of their bogie/tilting system and get type approval for the package. It's still a big investment for a small return though.

 

[Bletchleyite]

So for me, it's either more Pendolinos at 125mph, or 110mph for anything else, whatever the PR says.

Why? It can (and will) be a 125mph EMU, even if for much of the route it won't actually go that fast. It'll be in service for at least 30 years, might as well future-proof it.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Why? It can (and will) be a 125mph EMU, even if for much of the route it won't actually go that fast. It'll be in service for at least 30 years, might as well future-proof it.

What I mean is, there is no prospect of 125mph running on the WCML unless it's a Pendolino design (or some e-Voyager version).
And TPE will continue to get in the way of faster 390s/221s.