Northern rolling stock plan once new DMU's introduced?

[61653 HTAFC]

Don't Northern have the option to permanently use the 153s in formation with the 155s?

There are no plans to do so at Northern, whether there's an option to revisit this if required is unknown. I imagine it remains possible in theory depending on what happens with the next franchises for East Midlands, West Midlands, and Wales.

 

[northwichcat]

There are no plans to do so at Northern, whether there's an option to revisit this if required is unknown. I imagine it remains possible in theory depending on what happens with the next franchises for East Midlands, West Midlands, and Wales.

Yes both Northern and GWR are returning their 153s to Porterbrook.

 

[Mordac]

Any international takers to buy the Pacers, or will they all go for scrap?

We should preserve at least a couple of each version as a warning from history.

 

[northwichcat]

Any international takers to buy the Pacers, or will they all go for scrap?

Better railbuses already exist in developing countries: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Coche_Motor_Ferrostaal_(FCOSA)_02.jpg

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

My understanding was that the 22 185s displaced from TPE were to go to Northern. I would imagine they would end up in the north west to get them back to Ardwick, though there is the LMD at York for light work. I often wonder about them ending up on the Calder Valley.

Northern have no plans to use 185s beyond the initial limited period on some of the Airport-Blackpool/Barrow/Windermere services transferred from TPE.
The 22x185s will therefore be available to other TOCs when TPE release them around 2019/20.
But they will have to continue to be based at Ardwick, as that is the Siemens maintenance base.

 

[northwichcat]

Northern have no plans to use 185s beyond the initial limited period on some of the Airport-Blackpool/Barrow/Windermere services transferred from TPE.
The 22x185s will therefore be available to other TOCs when TPE release them around 2019/20.
But they will have to continue to be based at Ardwick, as that is the Siemens maintenance base.

There are 36 x extra carriages joining the franchise by the end of 2022, which aren't new part of the confirmed new builds or cascades from GWR, Scotrail or Thameslink, so we don't know what these will be - they could be 185s but then they might not be.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

There's to be no new maintenance depot specifically for the new CAF stock, it'll be maintained by Arriva not CAF.

I think this will be a problem for Northern, thanks to geography and lack of a wired route over the Pennines.
There will have to be 2 electric sub-fleets, east and west, otherwise there will be lots of ECS working to/from depots, diesel hauled until the Standedge route is wired.

Presumably all the incoming transfers from other TOCs will go to existing depots - Newton Heath, Neville Hill and Allerton - so no problems there.
But the new CAF stuff really should have a dedicated depot like Siemens has at Ardwick, with some outstations for light servicing.
I'm sure Newton Heath won't be wired, and it would need a major upgrade anyway for the CAF kit.
Longsight is shared with Virgin and owned by Alstom (as is Edge Hill - it looks like Hitachi is using Edge Hill for west-side AT300 servicing (main base at Doncaster/Craigentinny).
Allerton is probably going to be full of 319s and logistically in the wrong place for CAF servicing.
But splitting the servicing between 3 or maybe even 4 sites (1xdiesel, 2xelectric) seems a bad idea.

Personally, I don't fancy Arriva maintaining completely new kit without a great deal of input from the manufacturer.
They do own the specialist ex-LNWR facility at Crewe (now Arriva Traincare), but in the past that has mainly been used for commissioning rather than fleet maintenance.
Meanwhile Ardwick, which looks like running down, would be ideal but is in the wrong ownership.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Any international takers to buy the Pacers, or will they all go for scrap?

We should preserve at least a couple of each version as a warning from history.

I'd be shocked if any more than a handful escape the cutter's torch, and I certainly can't think of anywhere overseas that would need or want them, or even where they'd be suitable due to guage, platform height, and indeed the same accessibility issues they face here (anywhere in the EU will have equivalent legislation). I could see heritage lines wanting some, particularly Llangollen which has become something of a DMU sanctuary over the years. KWVR might want a 144 as they were the mainstay of Airedale services until the wiring. I'd also hope that Angel would see fit to donate a 142 (preferably a bus seated example) to the NRM as although they're horrible they are an important part of our railway history.

 

[NotATrainspott]

In any case, a unit-for-unit replacement of a Pacer with a modern 23m DMU means an enormous increase in capacity and comfort. Comparing by seat numbers means that 2+3 seating looks better so the total length of every train in the fleet is possibly the least bad metric to use.

 

[notlob.divad]

Any international takers to buy the Pacers, or will they all go for scrap?

We should preserve at least a couple of each version as a warning from history.

Never mind abroad, I wouldn't mind betting there are a few people in the UK with their eyes on a couple, particularly the ones that had the Dot Matrix displays fitted.

Just because Angel Trains don't think it is worth refurbishing them to accessibility standards doesn't mean that some maverick who wants to re-open a short branch line won't give it a go if they can get their hands on a couple of trains for scrap prices.

:roll:

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Never mind abroad, I wouldn't mind betting there are a few people in the UK with their eyes on a couple, particularly the ones that had the Dot Matrix displays fitted.

Just because Angel Trains don't think it is worth refurbishing them to accessibility standards doesn't mean that some maverick who wants to re-open a short branch line won't give it a go if they can get their hands on a couple of trains for scrap prices.

:roll:

I hope the eye-roll smiley signifies tongue-in-cheek, the ones with dot matrix displays are the very worst of them! The hideous Merseytravel-sponsored refurbishment of the mid-1990s. Unless you mean the solitary "e144" (144012) that is.

 

[notlob.divad]

I hope the eye-roll smiley signifies tongue-in-cheek, the ones with dot matrix displays are the very worst of them! The hideous Merseytravel-sponsored refurbishment of the mid-1990s. Unless you mean the solitary "e144" (144012) that is.

More that someone might see that as a step towards the accessibility legislation, but yes tongue in cheek was the focus of my post.

 

[43096]

Yes both Northern and GWR are returning their 153s to Porterbrook.

Including the Angel owned ones?

 

[northwichcat]

Just because Angel Trains don't think it is worth refurbishing them to accessibility standards doesn't mean that some maverick who wants to re-open a short branch line won't give it a go if they can get their hands on a couple of trains for scrap prices.

I think that will only happen if some TOC proposes taking on all the 143s and 144s for post-2019 use. At present even the one ePacer which has had a £0.8m refurbishment has no long term future and refurbishing the other 144s (and 143s) will be much cheaper than refurbishing the 142s.

 

[kevconnor]

I'm still hoping porterbrook run a competition to be able to be the first person to set an angle grinder to one of their miserable contraptions when the 142s start to come out of service.

Failing that I wonder if Booths wouldn't mind setting up a viewing platform. I'll organise the excursion and even throw in some drinks and canapes.

 

[northwichcat]

I'm still hoping porterbrook run a competition to be able to be the first person to set an angle grinder to one of their miserable contraptions when the 142s start to come out of service.

Porterbrook own the 143s and 144s. Angel own the 142s.

 

[notlob.divad]

I think that will only happen if some TOC proposes taking on all the 143s and 144s for post-2019 use. At present even the one ePacer which has had a £0.8m refurbishment has no long term future and refurbishing the other 144s (and 143s) will be much cheaper than refurbishing the 142s.

I suppose it depends on what said maverick is trying to achieve. If the journey time on them is going to be so short that you don't need to provide a toilet at all, and do the bare minimum to meet the remaining regulations. Agree the newer models are more likely. But for little shuttle runs where someone wants to re-open a line I could see it.

 

[TheKnightWho]

Whilst I can certainly see a number of Pacers going for preservation (including, I suspect, the ePacer) the main question remains of what will happen to the remaining 15 142s and 15 143s being used by ATW (because I think we all know what's going to happen to the 8 GWR ones). Less than 14 months from the new franchise being let to Pacer replacement seems unlikely.

But I'm aware this is off-topic!

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Whilst I can certainly see a number of Pacers going for preservation (including, I suspect, the ePacer) the main question remains of what will happen to the remaining 15 142s and 15 143s being used by ATW (because I think we all know what's going to happen to the 8 GWR ones). Less than 14 months from the new franchise being let to Pacer replacement seems unlikely.

But I'm aware this is off-topic!

Well, Angel Trains have made their stance crystal clear about their Class 142 units, regardless of what TOC is currently using them.

 

[WillPS]

Whilst I can certainly see a number of Pacers going for preservation (including, I suspect, the ePacer) the main question remains of what will happen to the remaining 15 142s and 15 143s being used by ATW (because I think we all know what's going to happen to the 8 GWR ones). Less than 14 months from the new franchise being let to Pacer replacement seems unlikely.

But I'm aware this is off-topic!

A lot of 153s will be needing homes - reform them as 155s, extend vestibules in to defunct cab; rest of the DDA stuff on the cheap and bam - should be enough to see them through to electrification on the Valley Lines.

 

[willbaforceday]

As long as the Northern 158s are transferred off the Calder Valley completely then I'm not that bothered! 170s should be good on the Leeds-Southport. Guessing that goes via the Calder Valley?

 

[northwichcat]

As long as the Northern 158s are transferred off the Calder Valley completely then I'm not that bothered! 170s should be good on the Leeds-Southport. Guessing that goes via the Calder Valley?

New CAF trains for Leeds/Bradford-Chester, Manchester Airport and Liverpool as well as York-Blackpool. Leeds-Southport will take the slower Leeds-Dewsbury-Rochdale-Manchester route.

 

[geoffk]

There are some hints that Northern Connect services may have 1st class

A Northern spokesperson has told me that the new CAF trains will NOT have First Class, as capacity is the main issue.

 

[edwin_m]

There is a detailed feature in May's Modern Railways including planned rolling stock numbers by class for Northern.

 

[northwichcat]

There is a detailed feature in May's Modern Railways including planned rolling stock numbers by class for Northern.

I've not seen that yet. Are there any differences to the previously reported plan of:

IN:
12 x 319s
All the LM 150/1s
5 x 156s
8 x 158s
16 x 170s
New CAF DMUs and EMUs

OUT:
All the Pacers, 153s, 321s, 322s and 323s
?

 

[edwin_m]

I've not seen that yet. Are there any differences to the previously reported plan of:

IN:
12 x 319s
All the LM 150/1s
5 x 156s
8 x 158s
16 x 170s
New CAF DMUs and EMUs

OUT:
All the Pacers, 153s, 321s, 322s and 323s
?

Differences in bold

IN:

7 x 319s
22 150s ex-GWR (assuming they are 2-car units, they get re-formed)
5 x 156s ex-Scotrail
8 x 158s ex-Scotrail
16 x 170s ex-Scotrail
New CAF DMUs and EMUs

OUT:

All the Pacers, 153s, 321s, 322s and 323s. Also the 5 short-term hire 185 and the two LHCS sets

So looks like more 150s and fewer 319s.

 

[TEW]

Article states 46 extra 150 vehicles from GWR, so presumably 23 units. This seems to contradict the GWR fleet plan as part of their direct award, which saw them retain all their 150/2s, releasing the 150/1s. They have 17 150/1s. That leaves 6 extra 150s. I suspect it's the 3 LM 150/1s, and the 3 GWR 150/2s which are owned by Angel Trains rather than Porterbrook (202, 216 and the currently 2 toiletless carriages, which are apparently getting fitted with a toilet between them).

 

[northwichcat]

I meant to say LM and GWR 150/1s before and yes we knew that the 185s and loco hauled sets are only short term loans.

There are 5 x 156s being released by Scotrail which aren't being taken on by Northern so perhaps those will indirectly free up some more 150s.

 

[Clarence Yard]

The word on the ROSCO tracks is that a deal has been done to take some of the GW 150/2 units at the end of their current lease with an option on the remainder.

GW are reported to be less than amused.

 

[northwichcat]

The word on the ROSCO tracks is that a deal has been done to take some of the GW 150/2 units at the end of their current lease with an option on the remainder.

GW are reported to be less than amused.

There was a mention of Northern introducing I think 32 additional carriages in 2022 in the franchise announcement.

ROSCO not wanting the same plan as a TOC hasn't worked well for TPE but it sounds like Northern will do all right with the 323 situation.