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Gatwick Express Industrial Relations

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Antman

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+1 if only I could of put so eloquently.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


I have sent Antman a PM but he has not replied although he has been online... perhaps he might like to read the private message and reply to me by PM.
I doubt he will though!

Sorry I've only just became aware of your PM. I'll reply a bit later when I've got a bit more time ;)
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Antman from your posts I see you have a great interest in the railway generally particularly when it comes to operations. You're a bus driver - right ? Have you considered joining the railway ?

I used to be a bus driver but am semi retired now, still do a bit of truck driving. I did consider a career on the railways many years ago but didn't follow it up for one reason and another. I had an uncle who worked on the railway back then which is probably what got me interested.
 
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bengley

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The overall length of the train is irrelevant here. It's the fact 12 coaches come with 4 extra sets of doors to monitor on in cab screens the size of your average pc monitor! I challenge anyone to be 100% confident in watching 24 sets of doors on a busy platform on in cab monitors and be happy to close the doors and take power and move off. It's hard enough doing it with 7 coaches, so I can imagine it is a nightmare with 12! Any DOO driver that says otherwise is just hoping for the best. 12 coaches really need a guard and platform dispatchers for busy platforms. Either that or external speakers so the driver can tell people to beat it after the doors have closed and locked.

And as has already stated in numerous previous posts, Aslef don't have an agreement in place with the TOC for their drivers to operate 12 car DOO trains on GatEx.

I look forward to seeing how far GTR will take this before they change their tune. Safety must be first, not passenger experiences!

That's being generous, they're smaller than iPad screens!
 

380101

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That's being generous, they're smaller than iPad screens!

The 380 monitors are a reasonable size - until they are on and you have 4 separate images on each screen which I'll agree are about the size of a small iPad screen!
 

JohnB57

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...passengers can't be left to evacuate themselves if there's track missing, live electric in the area, a fire ongoing or the possibility of another train coming through the section at high speed.
Probably my strange sense of humour, but I genuinely had to read the first few words of that twice.

Sorry to trivialise an interesting thread, but I do love a good double-entendre...
 

Sprinter153

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I think this is more likely than GTR making changes to policy generally, although they're widely regarded as being a bit fast and loose generally with it so I might not rule out changes to fares. Perhaps it also includes things like guards issuing Penalty Fares?

I understand that the new OBS role includes Penalty Fare and MG11 training (with associated targets) and the requirement that they work on stations if requested to do so by management.

Also the routes covered will grow exponentially, Brighton and Eastbourne OBS staff will work to the likes of East Grinstead and Tonbridge!
 

BRblue

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I understand that the new OBS role includes Penalty Fare and MG11 training (with associated targets) and the requirement that they work on stations if requested to do so by management.

Also the routes covered will grow exponentially, Brighton and Eastbourne OBS staff will work to the likes of East Grinstead and Tonbridge!

The triple whammy... close ticket offices, reduce station staff, reduce the number of guards and retrain the rest. Jack of all trades and master of none.
But of course its not about profits! :roll:
 

tsr

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No reason guards shouldn't be patrolling 455s. There are door controls in all but 1 carriage on the 455/7s. There are some stations where dispatch has to be from a certain location, but that's the minority of stations. 456s are more difficult due to the lack of gangway.

I would add, for clarity, that Southern 455s (worked by conductors primarily on the Horsham and Guildford routes, but also elsewhere at times) do not have gangways between units (as previously posted) or any conductor panels at all in the saloons. In addition, dispatch is required to take place from the front cab of the rear unit only when in an 8 coach formation, except in the highly unlikely scenario of neither the communications system nor the door controls working in that cab, in which case the rearmost cab would generally be used, or the rear unit taken OOU with the rear cab of the front unit used.

It is possible for a conductor to patrol a Southern 455, but realistically only when you have more than about 3 or so minutes between stops. Even then, if you come across something more complex such as a confused passenger or ticketing irregularity (bearing in mind Southern conductors are all revenue trained), that will be barely enough time to exit the cab, find and sort out the issue, and get back again to release the doors and dispatch. You can take this as factual from somebody who has 455s on their licence...
 

cactustwirly

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The triple whammy... close ticket offices, reduce station staff, reduce the number of guards and retrain the rest. Jack of all trades and master of none.
But of course its not about profits! :roll:

The number of guards isn't being reduced, as GX is already DOO.
GTR have said that there will be no job losses
 

notadriver

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I used to be a bus driver but am semi retired now, still do a bit of truck driving. I did consider a career on the railways many years ago but didn't follow it up for one reason and another. I had an uncle who worked on the railway back then which is probably what got me interested.


It's never too late to try. I left the bus industry (full time) as I wanted to expand my horizons. I still drive pcv's occasionally of course. I've yet to meet any PCV drivers who have the interest and knowledge you have when it comes to the railways - I hope I will soon. Brief question about semi-retirement - what does that mean ? I've met many so called retired or 'part time' pcv drivers who do more hours than I do full time on that trains.
 

TheEdge

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The number of guards isn't being reduced, as GX is already DOO.
GTR have said that there will be no job losses

GTR are manipulating. Have you read the rest of this thread? Guards to be re-employed as non safety critical customer service lip service role, which, once the dust settles will no doubt find themselves surplus to requirements. But there were no job losses... :roll:
 

tony6499

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I understand that the new OBS role includes Penalty Fare and MG11 training (with associated targets) and the requirement that they work on stations if requested to do so by management.

Also the routes covered will grow exponentially, Brighton and Eastbourne OBS staff will work to the likes of East Grinstead and Tonbridge!

It wouldn't be routes as such as they won't need route knowledge so they could go anywhere on the region if required
 

Carlisle

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GTR are manipulating. Have you read the rest of this thread? Guards to be re-employed as non safety critical customer service lip service role,
How can that happen straight away to all Southern guards, their 170s and 313s aren't equipped for DOO anyway so it would have to end up being a pretty gradual process
 
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Agent_c

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The number of guards isn't being reduced, as GX is already DOO.
GTR have said that there will be no job losses

Hard to argue that guards aren't being reduced when GTR are saying the role is being made redundant, and they're being offered a new, different, role.
 

YoungJohnson

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I am totally against DOO, but how will this work?

As mentioned before some of the Southern traction is not equipped for DOO, nor are the routes.

Are they going to start putting mirrors up all over West Sussex? And what about routes where SWT / GW or whoever is the primary operator?
 

tsr

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How can that happen straight away to all Southern guards, their 170s and 313s aren't equipped for DOO anyway so it would have to end up being a pretty gradual process

171s and 313s would remain conductor operated. Currently no proposals exist to convert these.

Leatherhead-Guildford would most likely remain conductor operated (455s and occasional 377s).

All WLL/WCML services North of Clapham Junction would need to remain conductor operated.
 

Bishopstone

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I understand that the new OBS role includes Penalty Fare and MG11 training (with associated targets) and the requirement that they work on stations if requested to do so by management.

Also the routes covered will grow exponentially, Brighton and Eastbourne OBS staff will work to the likes of East Grinstead and Tonbridge!

Would they (the new role - not specifically Brighton staff) also cover Gatwick Express and Thameslink services?
 

HarleyDavidson

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As soon as it leaves Leatherhead bound for Guildford, it requires a guard on it, DOO-P isn't allowed on SWT patch.
 

neilm

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171s and 313s would remain conductor operated. Currently no proposals exist to convert these.

Leatherhead-Guildford would most likely remain conductor operated (455s and occasional 377s).

All WLL/WCML services North of Clapham Junction would need to remain conductor operated.
But every thing else would be DOO? So London Vic to Eastbourne for example would use station staff to dispatch and onboard cameras then at stations were there are no staff?
 

cjmillsnun

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What's the "P" stand for in DOO-P? Are there different modes/varieties of DOO?

I'm guessing P = passenger

Freight is all DOO now, but used to have both a secondman and a guard.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
As soon as it leaves Leatherhead bound for Guildford, it requires a guard on it, DOO-P isn't allowed on SWT patch.

That might be difficult if they've made them all redundant.
 

tsr

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Would they (the new role - not specifically Brighton staff) also cover Gatwick Express and Thameslink services?

Yes. Proposals are for all GTR RPIs and many conductors (not all, but I'd rather not go into too much detail) to become OBS. This includes current revenue employees on Thameslink routes. Some former Southern conductors would become specific GX route OBS.
 

JonathanH

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Yes. Proposals are for all GTR RPIs and many conductors (not all, but I'd rather not go into too much detail) to become OBS. This includes current revenue employees on Thameslink routes. Some former Southern conductors would become specific GX route OBS.

Does that mean that Southern have been able to get their entire network cleared for DOO (ie including East Coastway to Hastings, the offshoots to Reigate and Tonbridge and presumably to the west as far as Havant) and they are just waiting to sort things out with the staff?

What happens west of Havant? The OBS becomes a guard?
 

Skimble19

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171s and 313s would remain conductor operated. Currently no proposals exist to convert these.

Leatherhead-Guildford would most likely remain conductor operated (455s and occasional 377s).

All WLL/WCML services North of Clapham Junction would need to remain conductor operated.

One thing I keep wondering.. Why are the WLL/WCML services still going to require a conductor north of Clapham Junction? Are they exceptionally busy or something?
 

Carlisle

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One thing I keep wondering.. Why are the WLL/WCML services still going to require a conductor north of Clapham Junction? Are they exceptionally busy or something?

I'd imagine that would be down to London Midland as that areas main operator to get clearance for DOO on their patch similar to SWT
 
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craigybagel

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I'm guessing P = passenger

Freight is all DOO now, but used to have both a secondman and a guard..

Almost all DOO. DRS' nuclear trains carry a guard.


One thing I keep wondering.. Why are the WLL/WCML services still going to require a conductor north of Clapham Junction? Are they exceptionally busy or something?

Is there a section of AB signalling perhaps where the WLL links into the Wcml? Or maybe they're worried about it sparking another war at LM if trains are running DOO on their routes?
 

Tetchytyke

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One thing I keep wondering.. Why are the WLL/WCML services still going to require a conductor north of Clapham Junction? Are they exceptionally busy or something?

They could run DOO as far as Shepherd's Bush.

From Wembley northwards there isn't acceptance of DOO-P, and I think it would be for London Midland to sort that out. It wouldn't be a massive bureaucratic issue to sort it out- NSE were about to launch DOO-P on that route, and indeed the DOO CCTV monitors and cameras are fully functioning at Apsley, among other places- but I can't imagine it doing wonders for industrial relations at London Midland.

The $64,000 question would be whether Southern (prop: GoVia) care about upsetting London Midland (prop: GoVia) staff.
 

87015

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They could run DOO as far as Shepherd's Bush.

From Wembley northwards there isn't acceptance of DOO-P, and I think it would be for London Midland to sort that out. It wouldn't be a massive bureaucratic issue to sort it out- NSE were about to launch DOO-P on that route, and indeed the DOO CCTV monitors and cameras are fully functioning at Apsley, among other places- but I can't imagine it doing wonders for industrial relations at London Midland.

The $64,000 question would be whether Southern (prop: GoVia) care about upsetting London Midland (prop: GoVia) staff.

377s don't need cameras/monitors as it is onboard though. I don't think LM would have much say - its a GTR service and their own risk assessments etc, and I expect they are self dispatch at all the LM stations anyway.

Is this mass extension of DOO (as opposed to just fast Gatwick/Brighton services) noted anywhere? It certainly makes it a much difference story.
 
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