TPE franchise awarded to First

[61653 HTAFC]

Besides 125mph will only ever be of use North of York on the ECML. On the North TP Core the maximum is 90 with ruling speeds being 70-80 and very little chance of this changing significantly due to curvature and gradients. 125mph running might also impact on driving trailer vehicles.

 

[Dave1987]

Or Class 88 to use the wires where available?

Can I just point something out. With large diesel engines you can't just switch them on and off continuously without causing issues. On another thread someone pointed out that on the GWR route they will only be changing from OHLE to diesel a handful of times a day and the heat cycles and engine wear had all been factored in. So if there are only short sections of OHLE to use you would need to keep your diesel engines running so what's the point in using the OHLE?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Alternatively some of the hauled stock may find a home on Manchester to Hull or Cleethorpes services for a few years.

Or to Scotland to replace the HSTs which will be starting to get a bit knackered by then.

 

[sprinterguy]

Or to Scotland to replace the HSTs which will be starting to get a bit knackered by then.

Although there'd only be enough sets to effect a partial replacement, and Scotrail are committed to using the HSTs until at least the end of the current franchise (and with the amount of work being done, you'd hope to get at least ten years of good usage out of them). I suspect it'd be a decision to be taken by the next franchisee, in the latter half of the 2020s.

Are we really considering cascade plans for stock that hasn't even been built yet?

 

[yorksrob]

I do hope someone's taken some pictures !

 

[D6975]

Can I just point something out. With large diesel engines you can't just switch them on and off continuously without causing issues. On another thread someone pointed out that on the GWR route they will only be changing from OHLE to diesel a handful of times a day and the heat cycles and engine wear had all been factored in. So if there are only short sections of OHLE to use you would need to keep your diesel engines running so what's the point in using the OHLE?

Does anyone know how bi-modes operate when on overhead juice? Can the diesel engines be left on tickover while you're using the 25kV.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Today's Railways, mag out today, says 13x 5 car loco hauled CAF sets have been ordered by TP, to be 68 hauled.

If true, what's the point of buying 13x5-car 100mph sets when TPE already has an equivalent fleet of 25x185 (those not being retained) going spare?
They could form 6-car sets with at least as good performance and quality interior as new loco-hauled trains.
The 19xAT300 bi-modes could be replaced by straight electrics when the Liverpool-Leeds-Edinburgh route is fully wired, to be cascaded elsewhere.
I don't see why new loco-hauled sets are needed.
I doubt the lease costs are any less, and there is an existing maintenance base for the 185s.
Neither the class 68 nor the 88 are capable of 125mph.

 

[northwichcat]

If true, what's the point of buying 13x5-car 100mph sets when TPE already has an equivalent fleet of 25x185 (those not being retained) going spare?

It's 22 not 25. I imagine there won't be much difference in passenger capacity between a 6 car 185 (with 4 driving cabs) and 5 loco-hauled carriages, so 22 x 185s would probably be the equivalent of 10 x 5 car loco-hauled sets by the time maintenance/spares are allowed for.

I imagine the real reason is so that TPE have the flexibility to switch to electric or diesel-electric locos when the Manchester-York wiring is done without risking having electric trains and no wires.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

It's 22 not 25. I imagine there won't be much difference in passenger capacity between a 6 car 185 (with 4 driving cabs) and 5 loco-hauled carriages, so 22 x 185s would probably be the equivalent of 10 x 5 car loco-hauled sets by the time maintenance/spares are allowed for.

I imagine the real reason is so that TPE have the flexibility to switch to electric or diesel-electric locos when the Manchester-York wiring is done without risking having electric trains and no wires.

But AT300s (more of them) would achieve the same result with less fleet complexity.
And 13 loco hauled sets won't be in service every day either.

 

[Bletchleyite]

There would be a fairly strong case for a uniform (185s excepted) fleet of 5-car bi-mode AT300s. But can Hitachi deliver them quickly enough?

 

[CosherB]

Even if the new hauled stock become "surplus" to TOCs in a few years, I think there will be a ready market to use this stock to replace some of the ageing Mk 1 & Mk. 2 stock used by charter operators.

Alternatively some of the hauled stock may find a home on Manchester to Hull or Cleethorpes services for a few years.

Where are the likes of Riviera or WCRC going to get the money from to buy/lease nearly new LHCS?! :roll:
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Or Class 88 to use the wires where available?

The Class 88 is a 100mph electric loco with a last mile Diesel engine (950bhp if I remember correctly), not a true bi-mode unit.

 

[Bungle965]

The Class 88 is a 100mph electric loco with a last mile Diesel engine (950bhp if I remember correctly), not a true bi-mode unit.

I believe that it has roughly the same amount of power as a Class 20.
Sam

 

[61653 HTAFC]

I believe that it has roughly the same amount of power as a Class 20.
Sam

But nowhere near the range due to small fuel tanks.

 

[Bungle965]

But nowhere near the range due to small fuel tanks.

Yes that is very true.
Sam

 

[northwichcat]

But AT300s (more of them) would achieve the same result with less fleet complexity.
And 13 loco hauled sets won't be in service every day either.

There would be a fairly strong case for a uniform (185s excepted) fleet of 5-car bi-mode AT300s. But can Hitachi deliver them quickly enough?

I think probably the underlying reason for TPE wanting new stock on most North TPE services and Manchester Airport/Liverpool-Scotland is they want to be seen a competitor to both the West Coast and East Coast franchises, opposed to a competitor of Northern Connect.

I do imagine it's partly down to time scales that TPE have examined loco-hauled, it's faster to get carriages built if you don't have to worry about fitting diesel/electric engines to power them.

I wonder if future flexibility could be another reason. There's been reports TPE will introduce 221 carriages, if there's one spare loco carriage it means 10 x 6 car sets can be a future option without any redundant carriages. With the AT300s you can't increase the length by reducing the number of sets without having redundant driving vehicles.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Yes, one big advantage of LHCS is that you can re-form it much more easily - an evening's depot shunting rather than a massive design, test and build job over potentially months.

 

[MCR247]

Yes, one big advantage of LHCS is that you can re-form it much more easily - an evening's depot shunting rather than a massive design, test and build job over potentially months.

Whilst this is true, it still cant/wont happen at the drop of a hat like some believe. And reforming 222s wasn't a major job whatsoever as they have a good TMS

 

[ainsworth74]

Yes, one big advantage of LHCS is that you can re-form it much more easily - an evening's depot shunting rather than a massive design, test and build job over potentially months.

As far as I'm aware you can shuffle 222 formations around very rapidly whilst IEPs can be reformed within eight hours. MUs do not have to require a great deal of time to shuffle around formations.

 

[Marklund]

Build them to UIC standards, obviously not loading gauge, and flog them abroad when they're done using them...

 

[Senex]

I think probably the underlying reason for TPE wanting new stock on most North TPE services and Manchester Airport/Liverpool-Scotland is they want to be seen a competitor to both the West Coast and East Coast franchises, opposed to a competitor of Northern Connect.

And in that context the new stock being obtained for the new ECML services to Edinburgh makes perfect sense. In terms of passenger accommodation it is likely to match up to what XC and VTEC will be offering, and in speed it will be able to match their times by running up to the 125 maximum that does/will/could apply over much of the last 200 or so miles of their journey (as opposed to the section of less than 100 miles west of Church Fenton).

However, it seems to be the idea that the new stock for the West Coast route, where the Liverpool and Manchester trains will spend the overwhelming part of their journey on the WCML, will not be able to match the timings of the VTWC trains they are supposed to be competing with. It seems that whilst the new Leeds to Edinburgh service will be fully up to all standards of the competing services on the ECML, the Liverpool and Manchester services to Scotland will not be in the same league as the competing WCML services from London and Birmingham. On the western side of the country it does indeed look as if TPE want to continue to be seen as the slow-cheap-and-cheerful competitor with Northern Trains and not as the offerer of a genuine inter-city service to the great cities of Lancashire.

 

[Philip Phlopp]

Does anyone know how bi-modes operate when on overhead juice? Can the diesel engines be left on tickover while you're using the 25kV.

They have a coolant water heating system, much like the MTU fitted HST power cars, this pre-heats the engine before it's switched on, and will control the temperature when they're switched off to avoid unnecessary thermal stress on the engine.

Good thermal control of the engine also reduces emissions quite considerably, and obviously cuts down engine wear pretty dramatically.

The engines will be maintained at temperature pretty much all the time, with a shore supply when on depot, as some diagrams will have them operating on diesel straight off the depot.

MTU maintenance rules have traditionally reduced the number of hours between overhauls if the engines are cold started, for every cold start, you lose a set number of hours between overhauls. It will be possible to start them cold, but not something that Agility or MTU will want to happen regularly.

 

[northwichcat]

Whilst this is true, it still cant/wont happen at the drop of a hat like some believe. And reforming 222s wasn't a major job whatsoever as they have a good TMS

As far as I'm aware you can shuffle 222 formations around very rapidly whilst IEPs can be reformed within eight hours. MUs do not have to require a great deal of time to shuffle around formations.

But then with both if you want long formations it's at the expense of having short formations or redundant driving cars (like with the Virgin Voyagers.)

A reformation in to a consistent 6 car fleet with TPE loco-hauled wouldn't happen overnight regardless as TPE wouldn't be able to reduce the number of diagrams they run but it could be done alongside acquiring some additional stock such as some electric only stock once Manchester-York is wired.

 

[Peter Sarf]

If sets are formed Loco+Coaches+DrivingCoach (either with or without seats) then if fewer longer sets are required then locos and more importantly DrivingCoaches will become redundant. The only solution, apart from conversion, is to order more coaches. But that would apply just as well to multiple units.

With a loco at one end the only saving is the lack of a Driving cab at one end of the rake of coaches. But that could just as well be a multiple unit.

There is, perhaps, not a very clear line between what is a true multiple unit and a rake of coaches these days. The only thing I could say is that a true multiple unit is self powered. But then the 4-TCs of the Southern were, to all intents and purposes, non-powered units that could be propelled by a 4-REP (powerful DC electrical multiple unit), a class 33 diesel or (iirc) a class 73 electro-diesel (a bi-mode of the 1960s don't you know ).

Oh er, have we been there seen it and done it already ?.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

On the western side of the country it does indeed look as if TPE want to continue to be seen as the slow-cheap-and-cheerful competitor with Northern Trains and not as the offerer of a genuine inter-city service to the great cities of Lancashire.

I am sure that such matters as this would have been part of the internal discussions held by the TPE team when drawing up their tender submission for the new franchise.

 

[northwichcat]

If sets are formed Loco+Coaches+DrivingCoach (either with or without seats) then if fewer longer sets are required then locos and more importantly DrivingCoaches will become redundant. The only solution, apart from conversion, is to order more coaches. But that would apply just as well to multiple units.

If the plan is to loan 68s off DRS then I think it's a safe bet to presume those locos are an interim measure, especially considering electrification work is being undertaken.

 

[Greybeard33]

However, it seems to be the idea that the new stock for the West Coast route, where the Liverpool and Manchester trains will spend the overwhelming part of their journey on the WCML, will not be able to match the timings of the VTWC trains they are supposed to be competing with. It seems that whilst the new Leeds to Edinburgh service will be fully up to all standards of the competing services on the ECML, the Liverpool and Manchester services to Scotland will not be in the same league as the competing WCML services from London and Birmingham. On the western side of the country it does indeed look as if TPE want to continue to be seen as the slow-cheap-and-cheerful competitor with Northern Trains and not as the offerer of a genuine inter-city service to the great cities of Lancashire.

Not sure I understand your point here. I do not think we yet know what stock TPE is ordering for the WCML, except that it will be 125mph-capable 5-car EMUs. Even if they are tilting trains with Pendolino-like performance, TPE will not be able to match VTWC journey times between Preston and Glasgow/Edinburgh, because the franchise agreement requires TPE services to make more stops.

In any case I would have thought the Scotland - Preston/Lancaster market is quite small for both TPE and VTWC, compared with Liverpool/Manchester/Birmingham/London. For Scotland - Manchester/Liverpool journeys, the TPE direct service is likely to be quicker end-to-end (and more convenient) than changing at Preston or Wigan, even though the WCML segment takes a few minutes longer.

So competition is likely to be mainly in the sector of the market more concerned about price than speed/comfort/convenience.

 

[jimm]

And in that context the new stock being obtained for the new ECML services to Edinburgh makes perfect sense. In terms of passenger accommodation it is likely to match up to what XC and VTEC will be offering, and in speed it will be able to match their times by running up to the 125 maximum that does/will/could apply over much of the last 200 or so miles of their journey (as opposed to the section of less than 100 miles west of Church Fenton).

How will TPE be able to match XC and Virgin timings when it is required to serve Thirsk, Northallerton and Chester-le-Street, as well as Darlington and Durham, and will serve Morpeth every hour once it starts running north of Newcastle? The new trains may be able to keep up with Virgin and XC services at full tilt but you can't magically vanish the time needed to make those station stops.

However, it seems to be the idea that the new stock for the West Coast route, where the Liverpool and Manchester trains will spend the overwhelming part of their journey on the WCML, will not be able to match the timings of the VTWC trains they are supposed to be competing with. It seems that whilst the new Leeds to Edinburgh service will be fully up to all standards of the competing services on the ECML, the Liverpool and Manchester services to Scotland will not be in the same league as the competing WCML services from London and Birmingham. On the western side of the country it does indeed look as if TPE want to continue to be seen as the slow-cheap-and-cheerful competitor with Northern Trains and not as the offerer of a genuine inter-city service to the great cities of Lancashire.

Since we still don't actually know what the new TPE stock for the West Coast will be, beyond rumours that now seem to change daily and then back again the next day, we don't actually know anything about its performance characteristics...

Why do they need to match the timings of Virgin West Coast? Again, the TPE service has to stop at Lockerbie, so that's an instant time penalty there. But even allowing for that, as I have pointed out previously, current TPE services booked on a 100mph schedule, and including that Lockerbie stop, take a whole eight or 10 minutes more to Glasgow and Edinburgh from Preston than your typical all-singing, all-dancing, all-tilting Virgin service.

I doubt most passengers between the North West and Scotland will be too fussed about a few extra minutes if they have a comfortable intercity train to travel in all the way, which, even if it can't tilt, will be able to run at 110mph on the WCML, so most likely shaving off a couple of the extra minutes anyway.

 

[Solent&Wessex]

New signage for those who haven't seen it yet.

 

[Philip Phlopp]

New signage for those who haven't seen it yet.

That roof is lovely, isn't it. I'm so glad First Group hasn't wasted money fixing a 40 year old roof, and have instead spent money on a beautiful new sign. It should be in the Tate Modern.

 

[northwichcat]

Even if they are tilting trains with Pendolino-like performance, TPE will not be able to match VTWC journey times between Preston and Glasgow/Edinburgh, because the franchise agreement requires TPE services to make more stops.

Revised TPE calling pattern for Edinburgh services will be: Edinburgh, Haymarket**, Lockerbie, Carlisle, Penrith*, Oxenholme Lake District*, Lancaster, Preston, Bolton**, Manchester Oxford Rd, Manchester Piccadilly, Manchester Airport. Maximum journey time will be 3 hours 5 minutes for some services but can extend to 3 hours 15 for others.

Virgin calling pattern is: Edinburgh, Haymarket, Carlisle, Penrith*, Oxenholme Lake District*, Lancaster, Preston and onwards to Birmingham/London.

Currently Virgin stop for 2 minutes at some stations where TPE only stop for 1 minutes, so there's not really a lot of difference.

* Not all services stop at these stations
** Pick-up/set-down restrictions may apply.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

That roof is lovely, isn't it. I'm so glad First Group hasn't wasted money fixing a 40 year old roof, and have instead spent money on a beautiful new sign. It should be in the Tate Modern.

Someone previously suggested that the station roof is outside the scope of what the TOCs are responsible for and responsibility remains with Network Rail.