TPE franchise awarded to First

[61653 HTAFC]

I don't like the term "Mk5".
It suggests someone has centrally designed a standard loco-hauled coach for which multiple uses will be found.
If ordered, they will just be a unique class for the TOC concerned, like the Caledonian Sleepers were.
Even Mk4 only turned out to be one order.

I know what you mean, but as far as I'm aware the Caledonian Sleeper order has been referred to officially as Mk5s. Technically they should really be mk6s as Mk5 was used (iirc) for both the cancelled IC250 project and for the Nightstar stock!

 

[TheKnightWho]

Why would unpowered carriages need to be removed from TPE? Diesel only locos- yes in 2022 but the carriages will be versatile and could probably stay on TPE routes for 40 years if they are built well.

Because the acceleration of MUs is better than loco acceleration, and this is becoming increasingly important.

Fantasies about loco hauled stock for the next 40 years on TPE are very unlikely.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Because the acceleration of MUs is better than loco acceleration.

Fantasies about loco hauled stock for the next 40 years on TPE are very unlikely.

I'd heard possibly on here that the 68s compare reasonably well in terms of acceleration to the units.

 

[TheKnightWho]

I'd heard possibly on here that the 68s compare reasonably well in terms of acceleration to the units.

Yes, and it's also interesting to note that DRS will have 13 free 68s in 2017 if the Fife Circle goes back to EMU operation (or switches to a different kind of loco). However, having no spare 68s at DRS and a mix of bimode and loco hauled stock operating TPE is not a good permanent solution.

We'll see the plans soon, I'm sure.

 

[WatcherZero]

Tony on WNXX has said all three fleets will be delivered beginning in 2018.

There is really no way you could sign a new contract for trains to be manufactured and delivered in only a year.

 

[hwl]

Could the simple solution be that they are looking at Bi-mode AT300 and then removing all but one of the engine rafts after a few years, hence different costs and maintenance regime over time compared to other units and hence different calcs to all the other orders so far to sort out?
(they would presumably need to be some options for further electrification delays resulting in more diesel maintenance?)

Could the performance required with lower top speed on diesel lead to some tweaks on engine performance and maintenance regime compared to either of GWR specs or the ECML specs on certain units?

With TPE doing more stops is gearing the electric units for 110mph with better acceleration (compared to existing AT300 variants) and lower maintenance requirements a possibility?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Because the acceleration of MUs is better than loco acceleration, and this is becoming increasingly important.

It's not very important for genuine fast services.

 

[47802]

Why would unpowered carriages need to be removed from TPE? Diesel only locos- yes in 2022 but the carriages will be versatile and could probably stay on TPE routes for 40 years if they are built well.

Well they don't have to be but it might more sense to get some EMU's

I'm assuming that the AT300's are mainly for Newcastle/Edinburgh and that the alleged LHCS are mainly for Scarborough/Middlesbrough so after Electrification to York I guess you look at moving the AT300's to Scarborough/Middlesbrough and then new EMU's for Newcastle/Edinburgh or a 125mph Electric Loco for the alleged LHCS stock assuming of course that the alleged LHCS has 125mph capability.

Of course you could just keep the existing trains possibly removing the engines from the AT300's but I think that would an unacceptable amount of Diesel under the wires running on a newly electrified line.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I'm assuming that the AT300's are mainly for Newcastle/Edinburgh and that the alleged LHCS are mainly for Scarborough/Middlesbrough so after Electrification to York I guess you look at moving the AT300's to Scarborough/Middlesbrough and then new EMU's for Newcastle/Edinburgh or a 125mph Electric Loco for the alleged LHCS stock assuming of course that the alleged LHCS has 125mph capability.

Like Railjet (Siemens) for ÖBB and ČD? Designed for 230kph (143mph), with Taurus locos.
This is a "2+6" design (loco plus 7 cars, one being a driving car).
"2+4" (ie loco plus 5) for TPE doesn't sound as economic.
Nobody is going to want locos running round at terminals.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Nobody is going to want locos running round at terminals.

Indeed not, any LHCS would certainly include a driving brake passenger vehicle of some kind.

It'll look like a DMU with one end missing.

I imagine a bit like these (though they have a DVT instead of the more likely DBSO):

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/58/IE_MK4.JPG/1920px-IE_MK4.JPG

 

[47802]

Indeed not, any LHCS would certainly include a driving brake passenger vehicle of some kind.

It'll look like a DMU with one end missing.

Well yes I think fairly obviously it will include a passenger carrying DVT, I guess an option might be to move the alleged LCHS train to South TPE services after electrification of North TPE or maybe Chiltern can have them if they are still running Loco hauled trains by then.

In any case I'm not holding my breath that TPE electrification will be completed by Networks Rails latest estimate.

 

[jimm]

Tony on WNXX has said all three fleets will be delivered beginning in 2018.

What, you mean he has read the press release from yesterday?

The one which states plain as day that will be the case, with the 19 confirmed AT300s arriving from December 2019 and deliveries of the 25 other trains - details of contract yet to be finalised - arriving from May 2018.

Hardly the most amazing revelation, is it?

 

[northwichcat]

Of course you could just keep the existing trains possibly removing the engines from the AT300's but I think that would an unacceptable amount of Diesel under the wires running on a newly electrified line.

That doesn't make any sense. An AT300 will only use diesel if overheads aren't available and certainly won't use diesel if you take out the engine!

First have indicated the diesel engines on the AT300s will not be removed so that Scarborough/Middlesbrough remain part of North TPE and also so that diversions off the wires can be covered.

 

[notlob.divad]

What, you mean he has read the press release from yesterday?

The one which states plain as day that will be the case, with the 19 confirmed AT300s arriving from December 2019 and deliveries of the 25 other trains - details of contract yet to be finalised - arriving from May 2018.

Hardly the most amazing revelation, is it?

If the first of the unconfirmed order are only arriving May 2018? what is going to run the extra Manchester - Newcastle which are supposed to be running by the end of 2017.

 

[Bletchleyite]

If the first of the unconfirmed order are only arriving May 2018? what is going to run the extra Manchester - Newcastle which are supposed to be running by the end of 2017.

The Pretendolino split into two sets was the plan I think.

 

[northwichcat]

However, having no spare 68s at DRS and a mix of bimode and loco hauled stock operating TPE is not a good permanent solution.

The TPE franchise ends in early 2023 with Manchester-York electrification expected to be completed by December 2022. If TPE orders loco-hauled they will almost certainly remain on North TPE from delivery until the end of the franchise. I imagine the option of adding or removing routes from the TPE franchise will be looked at again at that stage.

Also with regards to moving carriages to GW sleepers I can't see carriages getting stripped after under 5 years of being in service. The 185s are considered young for getting full new interiors and they'll have had 11-13 years of very intensive use at the time they are stripped. (TPE have a much higher seat occupancy level than most franchises.)

 

[notlob.divad]

The Pretendolino split into two sets was the plan I think.

That is what I read on the other thread.
I assume this would then also cover the introduction of the Liverpool-Glasgow service before the new EMUs arrive and possibly even to supplement longer term given others have said that 12 sets are tight.

Isn't this the Locomotive Hauled stock that has been banded about and the new trains would actually be pretty standard DMUs probably from the same people supplying the EMUs?

Once the Hitachi Bi-modes arrive for TPE North these will move to the southern routes freeing up the 185s to join whoever ends up taking the ones TPE are not keeping hold of.

 

[northwichcat]

The Pretendolino split into two sets was the plan I think.

I thought that was actually supposed to be part of the plan to free up 185s to replace the departing 170s. Although, with the loan of 185s to Northern ending at December 2017 a couple of loco-hauled mk3 sets could be the solution to both problems.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Once the Hitachi Bi-modes arrive for TPE North these will move to the southern routes freeing up the 185s to join whoever ends up taking the ones TPE are not keeping hold of.

TPE announcement today states the plan is for all Sheffield-Manchester services to be doubled up 185s by December 2019.

 

[47802]

That doesn't make any sense. An AT300 will only use diesel if overheads aren't available and certainly won't use diesel if you take out the engine!

First have indicated the diesel engines on the AT300s will not be removed so that Scarborough/Middlesbrough remain part of North TPE and also so that diversions off the wires can be covered.

It was theoretical option if AT300's were retained on the Newcastle route after electrification then potentially the engines could be removed just as some may be removed on GWR AT300's when electrification is fully complete so I don't see how you can say it doesn't make sense.

However I did say that the other possibility was that AT300's would probably be switched to the off wire routes which your saying has been confirmed by First but that still leaves what you do with the alleged LHCS trains after electrification and surely the choice is either new EMU's or get a 125mph Electric Loco for the Newcastle route. In any case that's likely to be something that the next franchise will have to decide.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I suppose which of those makes sense depends on whether any other TOC (Chiltern?) would be going after some more LHCS.

The question is whether Chiltern and ATW (see the DB theme there?) really see a value in "proper trains", or whether they just run them because of the DMU shortage.

Anyway, moving away from rolling stock TPE have posted a nice bit of railway poetry on their YouTube channel:

[youtube]6XQf7_Z1fMQ[/youtube]

Not very railway themed overall, but very evocative.

Not even remotely the same railway as the depressing one of my childhood, is it?

[youtube]ALUsPidQs3E[/youtube]

I really do hope it goes well.

 

[Peter Sarf]

Regarding the LHCS option.

1) Would sufficient Mk4 coaches become available in time. Given that electric only IEPs for GW are not much use it might make sense for VTEC to take some on asap for straight electric routes that Mk4s currently work. Not sure of my timescales. Would the DVTs even be needed if a 68 at each end was needed for enough power ?.

2) Will some HSTs become free in time. I assume not given that Scotland must be worried about delays to their cascaded HST arriving.

EDIT - I have not mentioned my beloved EMUs......

 

[Bletchleyite]

68s are powerful beasts, I see no particular need for two of them. Topping and tailing is just done for operational convenience where no DVTs are available.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

2) Will some HSTs become free in time. I assume not given that Scotland must be worried about delays to their cascaded HST arriving.

ScotRail InterCity could well be a reasonable place for these coaches to go if First did decide to procure more 800/801 sets later on. The HSTs will only last so long, they are 40 odd years old.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Regarding the LHCS option.
1) Would sufficient Mk4 coaches become available in time. Given that electric only IEPs for GW are not much use it might make sense for VTEC to take some on asap for straight electric routes that Mk4s currently work. Not sure of my timescales. Would the DVTs even be needed if a 68 at each end was needed for enough power ?.

Contracts are likely to get in the way.
The two fleets (GWR and VTEC) have different contracts, and you can't just interchange the units.
Roger Ford thinks an order to convert the GWR trains to bi-mode is imminent, but DfT keeps avoiding sign-off.

 

[BurtonM]

No more purple! :grin:

I really like the new 185 livery. Factor in new seats and I might be inclined to like them...
I hope this refurb is cyclist-friendly.

 

[jimm]

If the first of the unconfirmed order are only arriving May 2018? what is going to run the extra Manchester - Newcastle which are supposed to be running by the end of 2017.

You'll have to ask TPE about that.

 

[Greybeard33]

If the first of the unconfirmed order are only arriving May 2018? what is going to run the extra Manchester - Newcastle which are supposed to be running by the end of 2017.

The Pretendolino split into two sets was the plan I think.

As I previously posted on the "Any News...?" thread:

Remember that the Franchise Agreement calls for capacity increases from Dec 2017 as well as the additional Newcastle service: morning peak seats increased by 20% into Leeds, 35% into Manchester, 46% into Liverpool, 91% into Sheffield and 103% into Newcastle. I do not think that two LHCS sets are sufficient for all that - is it more likely that they are just the interim solution to replace the 170s later this year, so that Northern can keep the Blackpool/Cumbria 185s?

 

[notlob.divad]

Quote: Originally Posted by notlob.divad
If the first of the unconfirmed order are only arriving May 2018? what is going to run the extra Manchester - Newcastle which are supposed to be running by the end of 2017.

Quoteriginally Posted by Neil Williams
The Pretendolino split into two sets was the plan I think.
As I previously posted on the "Any News...?" thread:

Quote: Originally Posted by Greybeard33
Remember that the Franchise Agreement calls for capacity increases from Dec 2017 as well as the additional Newcastle service: morning peak seats increased by 20% into Leeds, 35% into Manchester, 46% into Liverpool, 91% into Sheffield and 103% into Newcastle. I do not think that two LHCS sets are sufficient for all that - is it more likely that they are just the interim solution to replace the 170s later this year, so that Northern can keep the Blackpool/Cumbria 185s?

Clearly they couldn't because it would require 2 units to be in several different places at once.

In which case.

If the first of the unconfirmed order are only arriving May 2018? what is going to run the extra Manchester - Newcastle which are supposed to be running by the end of 2017 along with the announced morning peak capacity increases from December 2017 ?

 

[AnonymousUser1]

It does seem like quite a juxtaposition, going straight from yellow to black front ends. Does it help the high intensity headlight stand out in some way (a lot of existing high intensity headlight fitted stock already has black upper cab fronts, although this could just be a styling decision)?

don;t forget that in certain circumstances black is a high visibility colour scheme ! ( high contrast ) hence the black / navy body and yellow topped livery adopted by PNAS, the military training helicopter fleet, and all over black livery of the fixed wing military trainers

 

[djjawuk]

My last ever TransPennine Express sevice has been cancelled due to a driver shortage. Not that surprised. Staff didn't have a clue, there were none to direct people to a replacement bus and no bus was advertised on the screen and no announcements. Worse, I had to give the bus driver directions because he didn't know where his stops were.

This is representative of the level of service they've offered me these past few years. Let's hope there will be some changes.

Agreed - yesterday at Huddersfield:

The PIS was down again
The "Station Info Supervisor" was busy on the island platform handing out cup cakes but didn't have a radio on him so couldn't find out what was going on
The train was late
There was no explanation or apology
Some of the staff were busy doing an April Fool Facebook post about the station cat


Then today there are cancellations for lack of drivers.

So not a great start! I think they need to focus on the basics before they start repainting the trains.

 

[northwichcat]

Apparently Northern switched their diagrams yesterday to ensure a 156 was present at platform 11 instead of a 142 while the press were taking photos of the newly livered 185!