Why don't London Midland serve Manchester?

[A0]

Why would a LONDON MIDLAND franchise run anywhere near Manchester it would make no sense at this period of time.
Sam

Take that argument to its logical conclusion and you might ask why a company called 'East Midlands Trains' serves London, Norwich, Manchester and Liverpool.

Or a company named Southern serves Milton Keynes.

Or Arriva Trains Wales running to Manchester.

 

[NSE]

I don't get why people have an issue with train companies running over ground that doesn't fit in with their 'geographic' name. Yeah Milton Keynes isn't exactly 'South' but it's still a damn further south than most of the country and the service connects to the rest of the southern territory.
So I see no issue with London Midland ending up in Preston if it's a service that's coming out of Birmingham. This is because, funnily enough, it means it has to run through Dudley, Wolverhampton and Stafford, all towns in the midlands to connect to the north. Makes perfect sense to me

 

[adrock1976]

I don't get why people have an issue with train companies running over ground that doesn't fit in with their 'geographic' name. Yeah Milton Keynes isn't exactly 'South' but it's still a damn further south than most of the country and the service connects to the rest of the southern territory.
So I see no issue with London Midland ending up in Preston if it's a service that's coming out of Birmingham. This is because, funnily enough, it means it has to run through Dudley, Wolverhampton and Stafford, all towns in the midlands to connect to the north. Makes perfect sense to me

Have I missed the long held aspirations of the West Midlands Passenger Transport Executive in regards to the reopening of the section of the Oxford, Worcester, & Wolverhampton Railway (GWR) and the South Staffordshire Railway (L&NWR) that run through Dudley?

The reason I ask is that I am originally from that area.

 

[jamesst]

It's already been stated Manchester already has 2 trains an hour to Birmingham courtesy of Cross-country, I don't see why they need more?

 

[causton]

It's already been stated Manchester already has 2 trains an hour to Birmingham courtesy of Cross-country, I don't see why they need more?

If LM run two trains Birmingham - Liverpool an hour, and CrossCountry two trains Birmingham - Manchester an hour, and people want LM to go to MAN and XC to go to LIV... there is one simple* option...


*of course it wouldn't work in the real world!

 

[Philip]

Seems to be no more logical reason than for the sake of it presented here. There's no need to run additional trains between Manchester and Birmingham (or between London-Crewe-Manchester if you're thinking of the London-Crewe stopper), what is needed is longer trains on the existing services.

FNW used to run an evening peak time service from Manchester to Birmingham, which was booked as a 3-car 175 when available. A bit random, but then FNW ran quite a few random services which seemed out of place; such as Stockport-Holyhead and Manchester-Millom.

 

[Morgsie]

I think it is highly unlikely that LM will serve Manchester. I am throwing this into this debate which is that I have heard of a proposal a few years ago to re-route XC services via Crewe and Wilmslow and there is a recent proposal in the WM Rail Franchise Consultation document of re-routing the current LM Crew to London service direct from Stafford to Crewe. You also have the Norton Bridge works. So there is room for a LM service if the re-routes happen

 

[charley_17/7]

Class 323s did run on Manchester Piccadilly - Birmingham New Street, I certainly remember them, as does one of my colleagues who was an Airport guard, who also signed Class 322s and had route knowledge to Euston via Northampton. There was an overnight turn on Manchester - Brum workings.

Peak time semi-fasts (think it was a 1Hxx headcode) between Stoke-on-Trent and Piccadilly lasted until the VHF timetable was introduced. I remember them on diagrams in 2006/7, so lasted into the Northern franchise.

When LM and XC was created out of the CT carve-up, DfT wanted LM to run a Manchester - Brum service, either taking over the existing paths or as a new service, but either the figures or path didn't work out, so was quietly binned.

As for Milton Keynes, we are classed as the MKSM (Milton Keynes South Midlands) growth area or officially the South East of England thanks to the EU.

Personally, I think Manchester is lucky not to have London Midland serving it, or any of the other useless sister companies/TOCs/brands it cannot manage competently.

 

[6Gman]

​

Hi,

I wanted to ask why London Midland don't serve Manchester Piccadilly despite serving Stoke on Trent?

Thanks,
Leo

So, to summarise:

Because the services into Manchester are more logically worked by other TOCs.

Birimingham - Mcr : XC because some of them extend to Bournemouth/ Plymouth or wherever.

London - Mcr : VT

Crewe/Stoke - Mcr locals : Northern

 

[Alfie1014]

When the 2008 timetable was being planned the spec was for the Euston to Crewe local to run direct from Stafford. But as The Planner should be able to confirm the direct paths were sub optimal (very long layover at Crewe or conflicting with other services?) so it was suggested that they run via Stoke and have continued that way since.

 

[185143]

If LM served Manchester, peak time loadings would be horrendous with their stupidly cheap fares!

 

[the sniper]

The further north we suggest LM going would surely be a re-naming of the Franchisee to London Midland North.

Well going by current plans won't it be West Coast Connect post-2024?

Why would a LONDON MIDLAND franchise run anywhere near Manchester it would make no sense at this period of time.
Sam

Given that the LONDON MIDLAND region of BR stretched to Holyhead and Carlisle, there's still plenty of room for expansion...

If I were fag packet train planning with little concern for the wider implications, I'd:

• Cut the Northern Stoke stopper back to Macclesfield.
• Divert one of the half hourly BHM to MAN Cross Country services to Liverpool.
• Divert the hourly 'fast'(er) LM BHM to LIV service to MAN, reintroducing a semi-fast BHM to MAN, calling at Stone, Stoke, Kidsgrove, Congleton, Macclesfield and Stockport.

This would get Liverpool back on the XC map, give Stone back direct services to MAN and BHM, give Kidsgrove and Congleton regular services to the Midlands and faster trains to MAN. You'd also get the cheap LM fares between Manchester and the Midlands.

 

[MCR247]

. You'd also get the cheap LM fares between Manchester and the Midlands.

Would they still be cheap if there was only 1 LM tph?

 

[dk1]

A Crewe to Carlisle stopper was proposed just after privatisation but no suitable stock was available.

If I remember correctly that was going to be operated by 309s but the rail regulator turned down permission at the 11th hour.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

• Divert the hourly 'fast'(er) LM BHM to LIV service to MAN, reintroducing a semi-fast BHM to MAN, calling at Stone, Stoke, Kidsgrove, Congleton, Macclesfield and Stockport.

I am so pleased that Prestbury was not mentioned after Macclesfield. We don't want any Midlands "undesirables" disembarking there, affecting the harmony and equilibrium of the village, especially when we are trying to enjoy our epicurean feasts in our rather nice and select high-quality restaurants.....

 

[WestCoast]

I am so pleased that Prestbury was not mentioned after Macclesfield. We don't want any Midlands "undesirables" disembarking there, affecting the harmony and equilibrium of the village, especially when we are trying to enjoy our epicurean feasts in our rather nice and select high-quality restaurants.....

Henley-in-Arden and other delightfully quaint settlements in the heart of Shakespeare Country wouldn't want any uncultured Northern scoundrels making their way there by class 350 electric multiple unit either...

 

[Heartland]

As to why London Midland does not serve Manchester can be traced to the the Department of Transport decision to split up the Central Trains Franchise. Elements went to East Midlands and Cross Country with the remainder merging with a key part of Silverlink to form London Midland.

Our rail industry might appear at face value to be a group of independent franchises, but there is still control and management of the network in London at the DfT offices.

I suppose it is possible for LM franchise operators to set up an open access service to Manchester (under a different name) from the West Midlands, but would it be financially viable? Then again the crowded nature of some Cross Country services might make it so!

 

[wellwhatitis]

I suppose it is possible for LM franchise operators to set up an open access service to Manchester (under a different name) from the West Midlands, but would it be financially viable? Then again the crowded nature of some Cross Country services might make it so!

The corridor is woefully under resourced by the current XC services and stock. Something needs to change whether that is another direct option or beefing up of the existing services. It's madness that direct services between Manchester and Birmingham, effectively the two second cities, are all diesel when wires are available so the LM option is certainly not an illogical one.

 

[MCR247]

The corridor is woefully under resourced by the current XC services and stock. Something needs to change whether that is another direct option or beefing up of the existing services. It's madness that direct services between Manchester and Birmingham, effectively the two second cities, are all diesel when wires are available so the LM option is certainly not an illogical one.

I don't understand why it is 'a madness?' Yes, it is far from ideal, but I don't see how taking away direct Manchester services from Bristol/Reading/Southampton/Bournemouth to give 'the two second cities' (relevance?) an electric service really benefits anyone?

 

[wellwhatitis]

I don't understand why it is 'a madness?' Yes, it is far from ideal, but I don't see how taking away direct Manchester services from Bristol/Reading/Southampton/Bournemouth to give 'the two second cities' (relevance?) an electric service really benefits anyone?

I wasn't suggesting that those services were discontinued, just that the current level of service and capacity is completely insufficient, especially in light of the fact many through passengers travelling from stations between Manchester and Birmingham onward to the destinations you mention are the ones who end up standing in vestibules or sitting in luggage racks.

 

[Class 170101]

DfT would never allow it as revenue would be shared with another operator which would decrease the chance of premium payments. Additionally competition could actually lower fare increases. Compare East Coast and West Coast fares over similar distances.

 

[jfisher21]

I suppose lm could make the Crewe service 8 cars, and split 4 off at rugeley or stoke for Manchester, it would give virgin a run for their money and maybe get there in 3 hours!

 

[wellwhatitis]

DfT would never allow it as revenue would be shared with another operator which would decrease the chance of premium payments. Additionally competition could actually lower fare increases. Compare East Coast and West Coast fares over similar distances.

Yes, heaven forbid the passenger should get a better service and pay more competitive fares! Much better to pay through the nose in fares and be treated like cattle, whilst paying a second time with their taxes.

 

[daodao]

I am so pleased that Prestbury was not mentioned after Macclesfield. We don't want any Midlands "undesirables" disembarking there, affecting the harmony and equilibrium of the village, especially when we are trying to enjoy our epicurean feasts in our rather nice and select high-quality restaurants.....

As I understand the new Northern franchise, during Mon-Sat daytime it will run 2 trains from Manchester to Macclesfield, with 1 continuing to Stoke. The latter will not stop at Adlington and Prestbury.

In the longer term, the main Manchester to Birmingham service will be run via HS2, so it would be logical for a semi-fast LM electric service to run between the 2 cities via Stoke.

 

[leomartin125]

My main issue with the whole ordeal is that whenever I get on those cramped and horrible CrossCountry Voyagers at Manchester Piccadilly but am going long haul, so Reading or Southampton Central for example, the train is FULL of commuters between Manchester and Birmingham, and the train is packed to the rafters up to New Street and once at Birmingham, it clears out. These commuters need a better service to link the 2 cities than having to take up unecessary room on a long haul service thus meaning that many passengers going further and aren't using a 4 car Voyager as a commuting train may well have to stand. That is the main issue. A semi fast LM service to New Street from Piccadilly may well solve this issue.

 

[Groningen]

Norwich; Norwich. Is that not somewhere on the east coast?

 

[43096]

My main issue with the whole ordeal is that whenever I get on those cramped and horrible CrossCountry Voyagers at Manchester Piccadilly but am going long haul, so Reading or Southampton Central for example, the train is FULL of commuters between Manchester and Birmingham, and the train is packed to the rafters up to New Street and once at Birmingham, it clears out. These commuters need a better service to link the 2 cities than having to take up unecessary room on a long haul service thus meaning that many passengers going further and aren't using a 4 car Voyager as a commuting train may well have to stand. That is the main issue. A semi fast LM service to New Street from Piccadilly may well solve this issue.

What is needed is trains of a sensible length, rather than Voyagers.

 

[6Gman]

What is needed is trains of a sensible length, rather than Voyagers.

But running an 8 or 9 coach train from Manchester to Southampton because it's busy for the first 90 minutes doesn't make a lot of sense.

 

[coppercapped]

But running an 8 or 9 coach train from Manchester to Southampton because it's busy for the first 90 minutes doesn't make a lot of sense.

The trains are also vary between 'busy' and 'very busy' between Oxford and the South Coast, so 'sensible' means 'more than 5 coaches'.

 

[HowardGWR]

But running an 8 or 9 coach train from Manchester to Southampton because it's busy for the first 90 minutes doesn't make a lot of sense.

No. but one can split and join, as SWT does at Salisbury, and Southern at Haywards Heath does.