Manchester - Liverpool Electrification

[Wavertreelad]

Anybody know what a Class 124 would do the trip in. I always remember these units storming through Broadgreen Station in the 1960's?

 

[Welshman]

As far as I can remember, the "Trans-Pennine" units originally stopped only at Earlestown when they were introduced in 1961.

They left Manchester Exchange at xx00, stopped at Earlestown at xx19, and arrived at Lime St at xx38.

Presumably the times in the opposite direction were similar.

 

[driver_m]

Possibly a bit off topic but I glanced somewhere that St Helens Junction Station is now on a redevelopment list. Can only find something on the local papers website but it's about time. Arguably one of the most historic locations on the railway and yet badly neglected.

 

[notlob.divad]

Possibly a bit off topic but I glanced somewhere that St Helens Junction Station is now on a redevelopment list. Can only find something on the local papers website but it's about time. Arguably one of the most historic locations on the railway and yet badly neglected.

There is a major car parking issue at St Helens Junction. Many people have pointed out the large area of waste land to the South of the station as a potential new car park. There is certainly a lot of potential in St. Helens Junction once the 4 track at Huyton is complete and the idea of it having a stop on a future 2nd Liverpool-London via Warrington service has been thrown around, but I think it would be a long way off and I won't be holding my breath.

Having said all of that, I have always advocated that Lea Green should be developed as the main St Helens station on the Chat Moss line. It has a better catchment area with options for better public transport access, and room for increasing the car park which is already considerably larger than Junction. The disadvantage of this is the current name easily solved by changing from Lea Green to St Helens South. Junction should also be renamed as there is no junction and there isn't likely to be ever again and it will confuse things. There is a Sutton station already so bring back the name Sutton Oak.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Is there any final works on the Electrification of the lines or has that phase of the project been signed off?

I know the 4th track wires are not up at Huyton, but presumably they won't go up until the 4th track has been completed.

Maybe it is worthwhile closing the thread and then other issues -station improvements, rolling stock faults, etc can be discussed in new threads.

 

[Joseph_Locke]

Phases One and Two are being closed out now - Huyton / Roby was always a separate project, the 4th track doubly so.

 

[DJH1971]

There is a major car parking issue at St Helens Junction. Many people have pointed out the large area of waste land to the South of the station as a potential new car park. There is certainly a lot of potential in St. Helens Junction once the 4 track at Huyton is complete and the idea of it having a stop on a future 2nd Liverpool-London via Warrington service has been thrown around, but I think it would be a long way off and I won't be holding my breath.

Having said all of that, I have always advocated that Lea Green should be developed as the main St Helens station on the Chat Moss line. It has a better catchment area with options for better public transport access, and room for increasing the car park which is already considerably larger than Junction. The disadvantage of this is the current name easily solved by changing from Lea Green to St Helens South. Junction should also be renamed as there is no junction and there isn't likely to be ever again and it will confuse things. There is a Sutton station already so bring back the name Sutton Oak.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Is there any final works on the Electrification of the lines or has that phase of the project been signed off?

I know the 4th track wires are not up at Huyton, but presumably they won't go up until the 4th track has been completed.

Maybe it is worthwhile closing the thread and then other issues -station improvements, rolling stock faults, etc can be discussed in new threads.

Unless you're up with the owls, you always have to fight to get on the car park at St Helens Junction.

 

[Joseph_Locke]

If you look on Google maps satellite view you can see where the 4 tracking will end at Roby Junction. It is just missing the turnout. I think it was technically feasible to run it closer to Broad Green but it would have to finish by the station. 4 tracking couldn't run through Broad Green or beyond without major civil works at the start of the M62.

It was also subject to the signal spacing and the braking distance to Huyton in the Manchester-bound direction.

The first position was actually between Huyton and Roby stations, but there isn't room, so Roby got a 70mph junction ...

 

[notlob.divad]

It was also subject to the signal spacing and the braking distance to Huyton in the Manchester-bound direction.

The first position was actually between Huyton and Roby stations, but there isn't room, so Roby got a 70mph junction ...

Given I seem to remember it being called Huyton with Roby (think my Mum told me that the first time I ever got the train) I'm not surprised there is no room.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

One of the problems between Broad Green and Roby is the way the retained 2 lines out of the previous 4 between Edge Hill and Huyton switch from the north to the south side of the solum.
BR retained 2 tracks on the the north side through Olive Mount cutting and Broad Green, so that the M62 piers could be built on the south side.
The retained 2 tracks then switch to the south side half way to Roby, with the northern (Wigan) pair of tracks lifted through Roby and Huyton stations.
These two tracks have now been reinstated, but to go any further west would require complete remodelling of the existing main line, and probably embankment strengthening.
Signalling and OHLE switchgear is also now in the way.

 

[Bevan Price]

I've only ever seen Peaks pulling 9-11 coaches and i can't imagine them making those sort of times. How many did they pull on the L&Y lines?

In steam days, Liverpool - Newcastle services were typically 11 to 12 coaches; the most I ever saw was 14, but that was double headed. Other trains were banked from Manchester Exchange as far as Miles Platting.

Liverpool - Hull trains were mostly about 8 coaches, some reduced to 6 coaches in the last year or two of steam operation. Locos on both routes were changed at Leeds from Midland to Eastern locos.

Liverpool - Manchester locals & semi-fasts would be about 6 or 7 coaches.

ex-LMSR or LNER coaches were quite common until the late 1950s.

On the L&YR route out of Liverpool Exchange, there was also a service to/from Newcastle (via Wakefield) - from memory, probably about 8 or 9 coaches.

After dieselisation, Liverpool - Newcastle services became 9, 10 or 11 coaches, but this was gradually reduced over the years, typically to 6 or 7 coaches.

 

[snowball]

Given I seem to remember it being called Huyton with Roby (think my Mum told me that the first time I ever got the train) I'm not surprised there is no room.

There used to be a Huyton-with-Roby Urban District Council until local government reorganisation in 1974. There's still a Huyton-with-Roby CoE Primary School. Maybe Lancashire was fond of local authorities with "-with-" in their names rather than "and".

I hadn't heard that Huyton-with-Roby was ever a station name or other railway term.

 

[notlob.divad]

I hadn't heard that Huyton-with-Roby was ever a station name or other railway term.

It might not have been, my Mum was a local girl so probably knows the area by its council name. I just remember as a small lad being taken in to Liverpool on the train for the first time. It was an adventure and I think I commented about how soon we stopped again after Huyton.

 

[Joseph_Locke]

My pre-grouping atlas (27 and six from all good book sellers) has separate dots for Huyton and Roby.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

My pre-grouping atlas (27 and six from all good book sellers) has separate dots for Huyton and Roby.

Mine was only 21/- (1963).

 

[deltic08]

In steam days, Liverpool - Newcastle services were typically 11 to 12 coaches; the most I ever saw was 14, but that was double headed. Other trains were banked from Manchester Exchange as far as Miles Platting.

Liverpool - Hull trains were mostly about 8 coaches, some reduced to 6 coaches in the last year or two of steam operation. Locos on both routes were changed at Leeds from Midland to Eastern locos.

Liverpool - Manchester locals & semi-fasts would be about 6 or 7 coaches.

ex-LMSR or LNER coaches were quite common until the late 1950s.

On the L&YR route out of Liverpool Exchange, there was also a service to/from Newcastle (via Wakefield) - from memory, probably about 8 or 9 coaches.

After dieselisation, Liverpool - Newcastle services became 9, 10 or 11 coaches, but this was gradually reduced over the years, typically to 6 or 7 coaches.

Do I remember Liverpool-Hull class 124s travelling via the Calder Valley and Dewsbury in the 1960s? I know there was a Harrogate-Leeds-Manchester service via the Calder Valley using new class 108s.

 

[Welshman]

Do I remember Liverpool-Hull class 124s travelling via the Calder Valley and Dewsbury in the 1960s? I know there was a Harrogate-Leeds-Manchester service via the Calder Valley using new class 108s.

The 124s (Trans-Pennine units) used the ex LNWR route from Leeds City to Manchester Exchange via Dewsbury, Huddersfield and Standedge.

The Calder Valley line was dieselised a year later in 1961, using the new 110 dmus, which were an updated version of the older 104s.
These ran from Leeds Central via Bradford Exchange to Manchester Victoria. The service was hourly. Most started back from Harrogate in the timings of the previous Harrogate-Bradford service, and on the alternate hour were extended from Manchester Victoria to Liverpool Exchange via Wigan Wallgate.

 

[deltic08]

The 124s (Trans-Pennine units) used the ex LNWR route from Leeds City to Manchester Exchange via Dewsbury, Huddersfield and Standedge.

The Calder Valley line was dieselised a year later in 1961, using the new 110 dmus, which were an updated version of the older 104s.
These ran from Leeds Central via Bradford Exchange to Manchester Victoria. The service was hourly. Most started back from Harrogate in the timings of the previous Harrogate-Bradford service, and on the alternate hour were extended from Manchester Victoria to Liverpool Exchange via Wigan Wallgate.

Thank you for the info. I didn't come to Yorkshire until 1966 so didn't see it for real.

Got my classes wrong. Yes, Calder Valley units were 110s. 108s were Derby Lightweights.

 

[L+Y]

These ran from Leeds Central via Bradford Exchange to Manchester Victoria. The service was hourly. Most started back from Harrogate in the timings of the previous Harrogate-Bradford service, and on the alternate hour were extended from Manchester Victoria to Liverpool Exchange via Wigan Wallgate.

They ran that way up until the summer of 1968: one a week avoided Wigan Wallgate as a Parliamentary service over the Westwood Park avoiding line. Thereafter there was just a single Liverpool Exchange-Leeds via Westwood Park train, on weekday mornings, which ended in 1970.

 

[Welshman]

They ran that way up until the summer of 1968: one a week avoided Wigan Wallgate as a Parliamentary service over the Westwood Park avoiding line. Thereafter there was just a single Liverpool Exchange-Leeds via Westwood Park train, on weekday mornings, which ended in 1970.

I just managed one journey on the 6.30pm from Liverpool Exchange, which, when the 110s were introduced in 1961, ran non-stop to Manchester Victoria via the Pemberton loop you mention.

IIRC, it reached platform 13 at Manchester Victoria about 7.15pm - a very creditable performance in those days for a journey on the ex L&Y line.

 

[Bevan Price]

Do I remember Liverpool-Hull class 124s travelling via the Calder Valley and Dewsbury in the 1960s? I know there was a Harrogate-Leeds-Manchester service via the Calder Valley using new class 108s.

Probably only on sundays when there was engineering work on the line via Stalybridge. Liverpool - Newcastle services sometimes ran that way, too, reversing at Huddersfield (loco ran round train).

In later years, diverted trains would call instead at Mirfield, with buses to/from Huddersfield.

 

[DJH1971]

The Leach Lane footbridge near St Helens Junction is being closed off for a day or so next weekend for parapet work.

 

[PDG1949]

The Leach Lane footbridge near St Helens Junction is being closed off for a day or so next weekend for parapet wok.

NO! It's not - I can't believe it !

Can I have an autographed/dated piece of plywood as a souvenir?

 

[geoffk]

There are many many locations in and around the UK where overhead lines are not fenced in with Palisade fencing (especially open / country spaces) - not forgetting the rest of the civilised world too.

Palisade fencing is now advancing north along the WCML and has reached Low Gill and Greenholme. Scout Green next? These are surely not high trespass areas nor cable theft hotspots. Network Rail's spending on this is out of control, yet we wait for years to get track and signalling upgrades. How do our European neighbours manage with their unfenced tracks and foot crossings at wayside stations? Do hundreds of people get run over - I don't think so.

Originally the requirement for railways to be fenced (1845) was to keep railway employees, navvies and passengers from straying onto the property of landowners, stealing their crops and running off with their daughters - actually nothing to do with keeping people off the tracks. The requirement was altered in the 1990s (by the Transport and Works Act 1992?) which laid down a duty on railways to prevent persons and animals from getting on to the tracks - a piece of legislation passed without any thought as to the financial imposition on Railtrack/Network Rail.

Can any lawyers out there comment?

 

[furnessvale]

Originally the requirement for railways to be fenced (1845) was to keep railway employees, navvies and passengers from straying onto the property of landowners, stealing their crops and running off with their daughters - actually nothing to do with keeping people off the tracks. The requirement was altered in the 1990s (by the Transport and Works Act 1992?) which laid down a duty on railways to prevent persons and animals from getting on to the tracks - a piece of legislation passed without any thought as to the financial imposition on Railtrack/Network Rail.

Can any lawyers out there comment?

Without looking up the legislation, I can say that the requirement changed long before the 1990s.

As a junior draughtsman in a District Engineers office in the early 1960s, one of my first jobs was "Sheep Claims". I would visit the site where farm animals had been killed on the line to see if faulty fencing or walling was the cause.

If I could demonstrate the fencing was good, or the animals entered via a third party's property, the claim would be declined. A difficult job, given the number of times farmers would damage the fence and drive animals onto the line for the compo

 

[QueensCurve]

Originally the requirement for railways to be fenced (1845) was to keep railway employees, navvies and passengers from straying onto the property of landowners, stealing their crops and running off with their daughters - actually nothing to do with keeping people off the tracks. The requirement was altered in the 1990s (by the Transport and Works Act 1992?) which laid down a duty on railways to prevent persons and animals from getting on to the tracks - a piece of legislation passed without any thought as to the financial imposition on Railtrack/Network Rail.

I thought it was Parliamentary outrage at the death of Mr Hutchison?

 

[geoffk]

As a junior draughtsman in a District Engineers office in the early 1960s, one of my first jobs was "Sheep Claims". I would visit the site where farm animals had been killed on the line to see if faulty fencing or walling was the cause.

Until quite recently, post and wire fencing was considered sufficient to comply with the law, then palisade fencing started to appear in areas of high railway crime (trespass and cable theft), but it is now spreading into quite remote rural areas. Re sheep claims, do sheep in France get on to the line and, if they do, who is liable? I assume fencing there is the responsibility of the farmer - as it would be on the roads in the UK - not the railway.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I thought it was Parliamentary outrage at the death of Mr Hutchison?

Huskisson.

I think the recent craze for metal palisade fencing started with the Channel Tunnel routes in Kent (something to do with the extra security required).
They have spread like wildfire since, but at least they are now mostly green rather than grey in urban areas.
I believe all new electric routes, or otherwise upgraded, will get it.

 

[furnessvale]

Until quite recently, post and wire fencing was considered sufficient to comply with the law, then palisade fencing started to appear in areas of high railway crime (trespass and cable theft), but it is now spreading into quite remote rural areas. Re sheep claims, do sheep in France get on to the line and, if they do, who is liable? I assume fencing there is the responsibility of the farmer - as it would be on the roads in the UK - not the railway.

AIUI post and wire is still sufficient legally speaking. Anything in excess of that is being applied by NR to deter trespass and avoid damage or delays.

In France, the farmer protects his own livestock.

In the UK, the railway has to stop livestock entering railway land. That is the law and we have to live with it.

 

[geoffk]

That is the law and we have to live with it.

Yes, unless we can get a like-minded MP to put a Bill forward! But no doubt farmers would strongly object.

The Borders Railway in Scotland has mostly post and wire fences, except in and around stations.

Oh, and it was Mr. Huskisson!

 

[PDG1949]

Is the idea to use pallisade fencing where a line is (or about to be) electrified ?