1st class journey refund

[Llanigraham]

It's interesting that you confidently disagree with a person who always seems to speak with some authority on matters of ticketing.

Does he?
He is still wrong.

Well anyone is free to write to their MP about matters that affect them. Their MP doesn't have to agree, but they might if enough people express similar views.

Out of interest, if first class is a 12 seat partitioned section of a single carriage and all 12 seats plus the small gangway are occupied, are you then entitled to a refund because you are forced to stand in standard class accomodation.

No. No one is forcing you to do anything. Personal choice.

 

[petergibbinson]

well there you have it....I though it was interesting though that their website states :

If you have a first class ticket but there are no first class carriages on your train, you may claim a refund of the difference between the first class and the standard class ticket for the relevant part of your journey.

It doesn't state if advertised with 1st class carriages .. surely it is for them to have the correct information on their website (I pointed it out to them last year)
If I advertise a product with a 2 year guarantee, but didn't mean to ....I am contractually bound but what I have on my website...

 

[Llanigraham]

well there you have it....I though it was interesting though that their website states :

If you have a first class ticket but there are no first class carriages on your train, you may claim a refund of the difference between the first class and the standard class ticket for the relevant part of your journey.

It doesn't state if advertised with 1st class carriages .. surely it is for them to have the correct information on their website (I pointed it out to them last year)
If I advertise a product with a 2 year guarantee, but didn't mean to ....I am contractually bound but what I have on my website...

But there was a First Class carriage!!
It just happened to be full.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

I successfully managed to get reimbursement from Southern a few years ago after having shelled out for a first class season ticket, and then finding that all the first class compartments on my regular 12 carriage train into London were full and standing (this on more than one occasion).

Needed the involvement of Passenger Focus though, so keep on complaining.

 

[kkong]

Virgin Trains East Coast will refund you the difference between First and Standard for your journey if there are no seats in First Class under their Seat Guarentee Scheme.

Are you sure about? Their website only says you get a refund of the difference if you have a reserved seat in First Class.

https://www.virgintrainseastcoast.com/customer-service/seat-guarantee/

 

[Starmill]

Are you sure about? Their website only says you get a refund of the difference if you have a reserved seat in First Class.

https://www.virgintrainseastcoast.com/customer-service/seat-guarantee/

The wording is ambiguous, but if you had a reservation you'd get 100% of the refund, not the difference down to Standard.

 

[najaB]

The wording is ambiguous, but if you had a reservation you'd get 100% of the refund, not the difference down to Standard.

Could you explain the ambiguity, I'm not seeing it?

 

[suzanneparis]

WRONG!
A rail ticket off any Class does NOT entitle you to a seat. It only entitles you to travel in the area specified to that Class.

I am not suggesting otherwise. I am merely disagreeing with the system, which to me seems unreasonable. I would like the system to be changed so that a first class ticket entitles you to a seat or compensation if you don't get a seat.

You may disagree with me. But there we are.

 

[najaB]

I am not suggesting otherwise. I am merely disagreeing with the system, which to me seems unreasonable. I would like the system to be changed so that a first class ticket entitles you to a seat or compensation if you don't get a seat.

Good luck with that. I really can't see it happening because it sets a precedent: if 1st class passengers get money back if they can't get a seat, Standard class will expect it too. And there aren't, and never will be, enough seats for everyone.

 

[Via Bank]

I almost feel like the rules should be different: First Class tickets should guarantee a first class seat.

Otherwise, what is the point of having it, other than as a money spinning exercise for TOCs? And are people going to continue to pay these very large premiums if the TOCs won't guarantee them a seat? (Maybe this would be an effective complaint strategy for OP: threaten to cancel your First Class season and buy a Standard season instead, since clearly the extra money is not worth it in real terms.)

Frankly if they're not going to offer any kind of differentiation over the Standard class service other than positioning on the train, then First should be withdrawn and the trains run as Standard throughout.

But of course, that's not going to happen.

YVMV.

 

[MP33]

When I travel on Greater Anglia, there are always spare seats normally. If there are not then the service has major disruption and the fare would be refunded via delay repay anyway.

Seeing the same regular faces. I wonder what would happen if they all turned up for the same compartment of the same train.

 

[anme]

I almost feel like the rules should be different: First Class tickets should guarantee a first class seat.

Otherwise, what is the point of having it, other than as a money spinning exercise for TOCs?

I think you've answered your own question.

(I'm not saying that's a bad thing, although it could perhaps be questioned whether first class is the best use of resources on overcrowded subsidised services.)

 

[najaB]

I almost feel like the rules should be different: First Class tickets should guarantee a first class seat.

Otherwise, what is the point of having it, other than as a money spinning exercise for TOCs?

On the majority of long distance services you are pretty much certain to get a seat in 1st, even when Standard is full - and that seat will provide more space and be more comfortable. You'll also receive complimentary refreshments - which might be a cup of tea/coffee and a biscuit, or a full hot meal. You also get the use of the station lounge if your station has one.

The more pertinent question is why purchase a 1st Class season ticket if the majority of your travel is at a time when there is no advertised 1st Class service?

 

[455driver]

I am not suggesting otherwise. I am merely disagreeing with the system, which to me seems unreasonable. I would like the system to be changed so that a first class ticket entitles you to a seat or compensation if you don't get a seat.

You may disagree with me. But there we are.

What if the service is made up of 3x4 coach units with 1st class behind the driving cabs (giving 6 separate 1st class areas), each having 12 seats (72 1st class seats in total), all the 1st class passenger want to be at the very front of the train and so all 70 head to the very front 1st class area which has 12 seats, should the other 58 get a refund because they couldn't get a seat where they wanted even though there were plenty of available 1st class seat further down the train?

 

[Tetchytyke]

In Happy Clappy Land a first class ticket would guarantee you a seat or a refund if there isn't one. But it doesn't and, for many reasons (including the one from 455driver) there's no way it could become an obligation unless seat reservations are held.

All I can do is repeat what I said to the OP before: if he doesn't consider the service provided worthy of a first class fare, then don't buy a first class fare.

I'd also agree with anme, I don't think commuter TOCs should have first class.

 

[Bishopstone]

What's the position when you have a First Class Advance fare, on a train where it's not possible to apply reservations to specific seats. I'm thinking, say, of the Turbo diagrams on the Cotswold line. The 166s now have First Class at one end only, and it's possible to imagine a scenario whereby this fills-up beyond the norm with flexible/season ticket holders: and indeed up-graders at the weekend.

If all the seats in First are taken, what's the basis point for the refund? An equivalent Standard Advance fare? Or is there no refund entitlement at all, because it was made clear at purchase you were reserving a place on the train (to stand in First if necessary), rather than a specific seat?

 

[hairyhandedfool]

If a reservation is not honoured, the passenger is entitled to a refund of the fees they paid for that reservation. If the TOC cannot "provide alternative equivalent accommodation for you", you would be entitled to compensation of upto the value of "the price of the full single fare for the journey".

 

[thedbdiboy]

Very briefly:
- the current NRCoC does not make very clear what the rights are re First Class. There are plans to update these.
- However, consumer law is clearer. The most significant piece of legislation is the upcoming Consumer Rights Act in regard to services. This will mean that it would be very hard to argue that having paid extra for First Class you weren't entitled to a seat (i.e. the implication that it only gives you the right to stand in First Class would be very unlikely to pass the test of reasonableness in court).

 

[talltim]

It's no more or less reasonable than expecting a seat having paid for standard class

 

[Tetchytyke]

However, consumer law is clearer. The most significant piece of legislation is the upcoming Consumer Rights Act in regard to services. This will mean that it would be very hard to argue that having paid extra for First Class you weren't entitled to a seat (i.e. the implication that it only gives you the right to stand in First Class would be very unlikely to pass the test of reasonableness in court).

Why? That's how it works for standard class.

Failing to provide first class would be a different matter, but if the first class compartment is full it is full.

Good customer service would be offering a gesture of goodwill partial refund. But that isn't the same as a legal obligation.

I'd also point out that changes that may or may not happen to consumer legislation is not the same thing as "consumer rights law" guaranteeing you a seat.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

What's the position when you have a First Class Advance fare, on a train where it's not possible to apply reservations to specific seats.

If you don't have a reservation you're not guaranteed a seat, and a counted place coupon is not a reservation. However, again, I'd expect a TOC to offer a gesture of goodwill partial refund.

 

[Haywain]

Very briefly:
- the current NRCoC does not make very clear what the rights are re First Class. There are plans to update these.
- However, consumer law is clearer. The most significant piece of legislation is the upcoming Consumer Rights Act in regard to services. This will mean that it would be very hard to argue that having paid extra for First Class you weren't entitled to a seat (i.e. the implication that it only gives you the right to stand in First Class would be very unlikely to pass the test of reasonableness in court).

So, to clarify your view, there is not an entitlement to a seat at present but future legislation has the potential to change that (although it would require a court case to set an appropriate precedent).

 

[DaveNewcastle]

Very briefly:
- the current NRCoC does not make very clear what the rights are re First Class. There are plans to update these.
. . . .

That update would be very welcome.

So, to clarify your view, there is not an entitlement to a seat at present but future legislation has the potential to change that (although it would require a court case to set an appropriate precedent).

That would be one way to reach that position of entitlement.

Another would be to make it crystal clear in the T&Cs when buying First Class tickets just what the Companies are willing to commit to, such as a full or partial refund of the amount paid if there are not seats in First available, (and how that committment operates where First Class reservations have not been made, or season tickets are held, or there is a high-frequency service with space in First on other services, and all the other permutations with imprecise obligations.).

 

[bb21]

A very welcome move.

Paying extra for the entitlement of breathing First Class body odour is a bit silly.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

That update would be very welcome.

That would be one way to reach that position of entitlement.

Another would be to make it crystal clear in the T&Cs when buying First Class tickets just what the Companies are willing to commit to, such as a full or partial refund of the amount paid if there are not seats in First available, (and how that committment operates where First Class reservations have not been made, or season tickets are held, or there is a high-frequency service with space in First on other services, and all the other permutations with imprecise obligations.).

I'm not sure what is unclear....

...Unless you have a seat reservation, the Train Companies do not guarantee to provide a seat for your journey...

 

[cjp]

I'm not sure what is unclear....

I think what might be clear to us and to others who have read the small print of the Conditions of Carriage does not sit well with people's expectations that, having paid a premium for a first class service, they expect a better service and if they then get nothing more than they would have got if they paid for a second class (oops standards class) service, not even a seat annoyance is understandable.

Yes the Train Operating Companies have the legal right to act some do saying that one has only paid to travel in safety and for nothing more but the moral position and good customer service has some value as is often recognised by decent companies and decent people, people who can at least say sorry and mean it.

 

[najaB]

I think what might be clear to us...

Everybody agrees that it is good customer service to provide customers who have paid a premium an acknowledgement that they haven't received premium service.

However this thread has gotten as long as it has because some people can't differentiate between an entitlement and a gift. A problem with society in general I suppose.

 

[Llanigraham]

Very briefly:
- the current NRCoC does not make very clear what the rights are re First Class. There are plans to update these.
- However, consumer law is clearer. The most significant piece of legislation is the upcoming Consumer Rights Act in regard to services. This will mean that it would be very hard to argue that having paid extra for First Class you weren't entitled to a seat (i.e. the implication that it only gives you the right to stand in First Class would be very unlikely to pass the test of reasonableness in court).

Really?
Purchasing a railway ticket is not buying a service, therefore I doubt it will apply.

 

[bb21]

Really?
Purchasing a railway ticket is not buying a service, therefore I doubt it will apply.

Eh?

Not a service? What category does "conveyance" fall into then?

 

[Starmill]

However this thread has gotten as long as it has because some people can't differentiate between an entitlement and a gift. A problem with society in general I suppose.

I don't agree, the 'problem' is that something that really should be codified as an entitlement is being dressed up as a gift.

Meanwhile this is being dealt with, you can make the problem go away by buying Standard Class tickets.

 

[najaB]

I don't agree, the 'problem' is that something that really should be codified as an entitlement is being dressed up as a gift.

It's your opinion that 1st class ticket holders are entitled money back if they don't have a seat, but standard class ticket holders are not?