Old junctions at Enfield/Hertford

[1018509]

Looking at the National railway map for the location of the nearest station to an acquaintance I noticed the stations of Enfield Chase and Enfield Town and slightly further north the stations of Hertford North and Hertford East.

Were the two Hertford stations and similarly the two Enfield stations joined by a junction as the map on google makes it look likely - moreso between the "Hertfords" than the "Enfields?"

 

[Calthrop]

Re Enfield -- don't know for totally sure, but I much suspect not: Enfield Town having been the terminus of a short Great Eastern Railway branch, and Enfield Chase some way to the west, on the Great Northern's line from Wood Green to Hertford and northwards.

In Hertford, there was quite complicated physical linkage between the different lines: the Great Eastern's Hertford (East) branch off the Liverpool Street -- Cambridge main line; the Great Northern's branch from Hatfield on the East Coast main line, connecting both to the GN's Hertford (North) station, and the GE's Hertford (East); and the GN's line diverging from the East Coast Main at Wood Green and running to Hertford (North) -- extended northward later, to rejoin the East Coast Main at Langley Junction.

 

[Phil.]

Short answer is no.

 

[DerekC]

Short answer is no.

for Enfield but yes for Hertford as Calthrop has explained. See the following for more detail:

http://www.disused-stations.org.uk/h/hertford_north/

 

[Calthrop]

for Enfield but yes for Hertford as Calthrop has explained. See the following for more detail:

http://www.disused-stations.org.uk/h/hertford_north/

Thanks for the interesting link. I didn't realise that the northern parts of the Wood Green -- Hertford -- Langley Junction -- [Stevenage] loop were so new -- opened June 1924. I note that the Ian Allan Pre-Grouping Atlas and Gazetteer -- which endeavours to show status quo as at 31st Dec. 1922, and in the main seems faithfully to do that -- whether by design or accident, shows as "there and operational", the entire Hertford loop, right through to Langley Junction.

I went to school in those parts, and recall a car journey in 1963 or '64, in which a bridge was crossed over the Welwyn -- Hertford branch line. I'm sure I remember seeing track on the branch still down, and seemingly not in very bad condition -- wondered at the time, whether the line was still in use for freight. Per your link, no -- freight withdrawn 1962, and "track lifted shortly after closure". Of course, "shortly after" is not a very precise term: could mean anything from weeks, to a couple of years.

 

[DerekC]

Thanks for the interesting link. I didn't realise that the northern parts of the Wood Green -- Hertford -- Langley Junction -- [Stevenage] loop were so new -- opened June 1924. I note that the Ian Allan Pre-Grouping Atlas and Gazetteer -- which endeavours to show status quo as at 31st Dec. 1922, and in the main seems faithfully to do that -- whether by design or accident, shows as "there and operational", the entire Hertford loop, right through to Langley Junction.

I went to school in those parts, and recall a car journey in 1963 or '64, in which a bridge was crossed over the Welwyn -- Hertford branch line. I'm sure I remember seeing track on the branch still down, and seemingly not in very bad condition -- wondered at the time, whether the line was still in use for freight. Per your link, no -- freight withdrawn 1962, and "track lifted shortly after closure". Of course, "shortly after" is not a very precise term: could mean anything from weeks, to a couple of years.

Just re-read it myself and nor did I (realise the top end of the Hertford loop was so new). I was a regular trainspotter at Potters Bar, Cuffley and Cheshunt and the whole set of branch lines radiating from Hatfield was one of those mysterious areas which I never bothered about much - and now wish I had! A3s and A4s on the ECML and even B17s on the Cambridge line were much more exciting. Mind you transport was limited to bus so it wasn't easy. I do recall my dad pointing out a train on the St Albans to Hatfield line somewhere in the mid to late 1950s, but it may have been an occasional freight.

 

[Calthrop]

Just re-read it myself and nor did I (realise the top end of the Hertford loop was so new). I was a regular trainspotter at Potters Bar, Cuffley and Cheshunt and the whole set of branch lines radiating from Hatfield was one of those mysterious areas which I never bothered about much - and now wish I had! A3s and A4s on the ECML and even B17s on the Cambridge line were much more exciting. Mind you transport was limited to bus so it wasn't easy. I do recall my dad pointing out a train on the St Albans to Hatfield line somewhere in the mid to late 1950s, but it may have been an occasional freight.

Indeed, a rather engaging "flock" of GNR branch lines taking off from the main line at Hatfield. I did manage to travel (DMU of course) Dunstable -- Luton -- Welwyn in summer 1964 (passenger service withdrawn the following year). I find it appealing that the Hatfield -- St. Albans branch, as well as having its own St. Albans station, finished at the St. Albans (Abbey) terminus of the LNWR branch from Watford Junction. It intrigues me how often, in various ways, the GNR and LNWR acted as partners of each other -- when their systems' respective locations would make this seem not a super-obvious thing to happen.

 

[DerekC]

Indeed, a rather engaging "flock" of GNR branch lines taking off from the main line at Hatfield. I did manage to travel (DMU of course) Dunstable -- Luton -- Welwyn in summer 1964 (passenger service withdrawn the following year). I find it appealing that the Hatfield -- St. Albans branch, as well as having its own St. Albans station, finished at the St. Albans (Abbey) terminus of the LNWR branch from Watford Junction. It intrigues me how often, in various ways, the GNR and LNWR acted as partners of each other -- when their systems' respective locations would make this seem not a super-obvious thing to happen.

I guess that pre-grouping LNWR and GNR didn't compete that much, whereas both hated the Midland - so anything they could do together to frustrate the Midland was worth thinking about. "Railways of Hertfordshire" gives a bit more information on the construction of the Hertford Loop. Wood Green to Hertford was authorised in 1865 and opened as far as Enfield by 1871. Enfield to Langley Junction was authorised in 1898 and land purchased in 1901. The entry then reads:

By 4 April 1910 trains had reached Cuffley, but here the passenger service terminated and only a single line for goods reached Langley by 1918 owing the war. Between Cuffley and Bayford is the expensive Ponsbourne Tunnel 1 mile 924 yards long. The goods line was doubled in 1920, but it was not until 2 June 1924 that the new Hertford North station was opened.

 

[Calthrop]

I guess that pre-grouping LNWR and GNR didn't compete that much, whereas both hated the Midland - so anything they could do together to frustrate the Midland was worth thinking about.

The GN and LNW’s hatred of the Midland, didn’t stop either of them from running joint lines in partnership with the detested enemy: but that was true of a fair number of mutually hostile railway companies in pre-1923 Britain. One of the many endearing weirdnesses of that scene...

A GN / LNW partnership feature which has always appealed to me, is the system – part GN / LNW joint, part purely GN – serving the countryside of east Leicestershire, and Nottinghamshire: from the map, looks highly enticing – and one suspects, instituted at least in part to put a spoke in the wheel of the Midland, which was also prominent in that part of the world. To my regret, my first-hand experience of that system at the very end of its life was minimal, and did not include any travel. Oh to have been born a few years earlier...

"Railways of Hertfordshire" gives a bit more information on the construction of the Hertford Loop. Wood Green to Hertford was authorised in 1865 and opened as far as Enfield by 1871. Enfield to Langley Junction was authorised in 1898 and land purchased in 1901. The entry then reads:

So -- per quoted item -- the Ian Allan "PGA&G" essentially has it right with the Hertford Loop -- running, freight-only, through to Langley Junction by 1918: I see that said atlas shows Hertford -- Langley Junction just as "plain route", without the two passenger stations which it acquired when opened for passenger traffic.

I find that in the main, the "PGA&G" is extremely accurate as regards its stated mission. Am a bit dubious about its showing, as at proclaimedly the end of 1922, the North Wales Narrow Gauge Railways (soon to be the Welsh Highland), running south of Rhydd-Ddu (South Snowdon) to terminate at Beddgelert -- but gen which I can find, gives no certain answer on this; maybe the Atlas has it right.

 

[DerekC]

I find that in the main, the "PGA&G" is extremely accurate as regards its stated mission. Am a bit dubious about its showing, as at proclaimedly the end of 1922, the North Wales Narrow Gauge Railways (soon to be the Welsh Highland), running south of Rhydd-Ddu (South Snowdon) to terminate at Beddgelert -- but gen which I can find, gives no certain answer on this; maybe the Atlas has it right.

My copy of Peter Johnson's book on the history of the WHR gives clues but no certain information - maybe this is what you consulted. The deadlines for completion in the 1922 contract with McAlpines were July 1922 for Dinas - Beddgelert and March 1923 for Beddgelert - Portmadoc. The NWNGR section was inspected in July 1922 and the rest in May 1923. What is interesting is that the partially complete PB&SSR south of Rhyd Ddu as far as Coed Mawr (not sure where exactly that is) had been used for timber traffic from 1912 until at least 1918, so obviously there was track for some distance. A problem is the deviations between Rhyd Ddu and Beddgelert which weren't authorised until September 1922, but at that point McAlpines were already said to be working on them. My guess is that Rhyd Ddu to Beddgelert was complete by the end of 1922 - maybe the entry in PGA&G shows physical completion rather than operation.

 

[edwin_m]

The GN and LNW’s hatred of the Midland, didn’t stop either of them from running joint lines in partnership with the detested enemy: but that was true of a fair number of mutually hostile railway companies in pre-1923 Britain. One of the many endearing weirdnesses of that scene...

It's also reasonably common for companies who are rivals on each other's core territories to work together against a common enemy at the fringes of their own networks. So the Midland and the GN had a joint operation in East Anglia where the GE was dominant, and in the North West (including the GC which was an enemy of both elsewhere) where the common enemy was the LNW.

Another reason for peculiar running powers was when they were set up between earlier companies which then merged to become part of larger rivals. Taking over a company did not appear to invalidate whatever powers that company held.

A GN / LNW partnership feature which has always appealed to me, is the system – part GN / LNW joint, part purely GN – serving the countryside of east Leicestershire, and Nottinghamshire: from the map, looks highly enticing – and one suspects, instituted at least in part to put a spoke in the wheel of the Midland, which was also prominent in that part of the world. To my regret, my first-hand experience of that system at the very end of its life was minimal, and did not include any travel. Oh to have been born a few years earlier...

This is one of those railways that looks as if it was built specifically to avoid any major population centres, but in this case there was a good reason in that all the major companies were competing to serve iron ore deposits that lay to the south of the Vale of Belvoir. There were quite a number of industrial railways linking to one or other of the main lines.

 

[Calthrop]

My copy of Peter Johnson's book on the history of the WHR gives clues but no certain information - maybe this is what you consulted. The deadlines for completion in the 1922 contract with McAlpines were July 1922 for Dinas - Beddgelert and March 1923 for Beddgelert - Portmadoc. The NWNGR section was inspected in July 1922 and the rest in May 1923. What is interesting is that the partially complete PB&SSR south of Rhyd Ddu as far as Coed Mawr (not sure where exactly that is) had been used for timber traffic from 1912 until at least 1918, so obviously there was track for some distance. A problem is the deviations between Rhyd Ddu and Beddgelert which weren't authorised until September 1922, but at that point McAlpines were already said to be working on them. My guess is that Rhyd Ddu to Beddgelert was complete by the end of 1922 - maybe the entry in PGA&G shows physical completion rather than operation.

I took the easy way, and consulted Wikipedia -- which says, "The former NWNGR section re-opened [for passenger traffic] on 31 July 1922 and the remainder on 1 June 1923". I wondered whether Wiki and / or the Pre-Grouping Atlas and Gazetteer were maybe "summarising and compressing" -- perhaps with Rhydd-Ddu -- Beddgelert already "up and running" in summer 1922 -- or various intermediate possibilities. Thanks for clarifying, so far as this murky subject lends itself to same !

I don't have Peter Johnson's book on the WHR, but have in the past, library-borrowed various works of his. I personally find PJ in his writing, to have an unfortunate "Midas touch" -- he can make the history of even a delightful and fascinating railway, seem dull !
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It's also reasonably common for companies who are rivals on each other's core territories to work together against a common enemy at the fringes of their own networks. So the Midland and the GN had a joint operation in East Anglia where the GE was dominant, and in the North West (including the GC which was an enemy of both elsewhere) where the common enemy was the LNW.

And the M&GN actually had in East Anglia, sections jointly run with their Great Eastern arch-enemy -- the Norfolk & Suffolk Joint lines (North Walsham -- Mundesley -- Cromer, and [Yarmouth] -- Gorleston -- Lowestoft, direct). One feels -- only in Britain ! (or -- one gathers -- the USA played host to equally crazy rivalries / alliances between different railway companies).

This is one of those railways that looks as if it was built specifically to avoid any major population centres, but in this case there was a good reason in that all the major companies were competing to serve iron ore deposits that lay to the south of the Vale of Belvoir. There were quite a number of industrial railways linking to one or other of the main lines.

Including -- per the pre-nationalisation atlases -- ironstone lines of the Midland and the Great Northern north of Melton Mowbray, which in fact physically connected with each other at Wycombe Junction. I'd reckon that the verdict has to be: marvellously bonkers.