Why are fares treated as state secrets

[Busaholic]

One of the cases where trains are still ahead of buses for usability. The other is "real time" - still very patchy availability, which leads to the situation of waiting in the rain at a bus stop in the middle of nowhere being not quite sure if a bus is going to appear late, or not at all.

Not sure I'd be comparing buses adversely with trains regarding the transparency of fares.

 

[AndyW33]

One of the cases where trains are still ahead of buses for usability. The other is "real time" - still very patchy availability, which leads to the situation of waiting in the rain at a bus stop in the middle of nowhere being not quite sure if a bus is going to appear late, or not at all.

I'm sure forum members will be able to come up with a lengthy list of railway stations with no kind of passenger information system, either p.a. or display, and no waiting shelter, or at least no waiting shelter on the platform for the direction you're travelling in.

 

[miami]

I'm sure forum members will be able to come up with a lengthy list of railway stations with no kind of passenger information system, either p.a. or display, and no waiting shelter, or at least no waiting shelter on the platform for the direction you're travelling in.

Very few have no mobile coverage, so you can use one of the many official, or superior opendata tools, to find out where your train is, and if it's likely to turn up.

Not sure I'd be comparing buses adversely with trains regarding the transparency of fares.

Every train fare from any station to any station is available online, with the restrictions on when they can be used.

 

[David Goddard]

The most annoying instances are operators who run on farebox, and do not display fares on their websites, timetables or at stops. We found this recently in Glasgow with Garelochhead Minibuses and Coaches, who operate the 100 Riversider service. No information but when the bus pulled up it had a farebox. Fortunately we wanted day tickets and these were £5 each but for anything else we would not have had a clue.

How are you supposed to have the right money if you don't know how much the fare will be

 

[charley_17/7]

I note that Uno (regarded as publicly owned, or private arms length?) display fares (and fares table for the 797) on their website. Quite helpful.

 

[Busaholic]

Every train fare from any station to any station is available online, with the restrictions on when they can be used.

Just a pity that this 'information' is either not communicated to all relevant staff then, or, if it is, they are sometimes unable to interpret it correctly - see the numerous threads on this forum, with some like the FGW Paddington peak/offpeak saga going on for years.

 

[Deerfold]

I tweeted my local bus company to ask why it's so hard to find out single and return fares. It's been ignored for 2 days.

 

[oldman]

First seem to have reduced the amount of fares info since they introduced the new website. In Scotland East there used to be selected fares - now I can't even find any mention of exact-fare being needed in some areas, or even information about daily and weekly tickets. Whether this is policy or a botched web design (or both) is hard to tell.

 

[philjo]

Sullivan buses used to have a PDF fare chart on their website but it isn't there any more - presumably was removed at the last timetable revisions.

There are times when it is useful to know how much the bus fare will be in advance - e.g. to know if it is worthwhile getting plusbus or not for a normal return journey.

 

[gsnedders]

Particularly where one is encouraged to "Have the exact fare ready".

How is one supposed to know what is the " exact fare"? Regular travellers on the route will know, but ...

Or worse yet, "exact fare only". Why yes, I'll make sure I have the right change for the unpublished fare…

 

[miami]

Or worse yet, "exact fare only". Why yes, I'll make sure I have the right change for the unpublished fare…

Personally I'd just drive. Or uber (cheaper if two people are going). Or walk (can be faster for distances < 3 miles)

However I suspect you are supposed to carry

1x 1p
2x 2p
1x 5p
2x10p
1x20p
1x50p
2x £1
1x £2
1x £5
1x £10

 

[Deerfold]

Personally I'd just drive. Or uber (cheaper if two people are going). Or walk (can be faster for distances < 3 miles)

However I suspect you are supposed to carry

1x 1p
2x 2p
1x 5p
2x10p
1x20p
1x50p
2x £1
1x £2
1x £5
1x £10

It's many years since I came across a bus fare that was not a multiple of 10p - you can also usually work out a maximum by looking at the cost of a day ticket, but it's a pain.

 

[radamfi]

I tweeted my local bus company to ask why it's so hard to find out single and return fares. It's been ignored for 2 days.

Maybe you should make a formal complaint, and then escalate to Passenger Focus. Possibly also emails to the local paper and MP.

 

[Deerfold]

Maybe you should make a formal complaint, and then escalate to Passenger Focus. Possibly also emails to the local paper and MP.

It really shouldn't need that much effort.
Odd, as they're generally one of the better companies, trying new tod, introducing night routes...

 

[RT4038]

I expect that (a) bus companies get comparatively few requests for detailed fare information, other than directly to drivers at time of sale; (b) as with the railways, fare 'tables' are probably not produced anymore - all the information is contained within the database of electronic ticket machines and displayed on those machines when a Origin & Destination is selected; any printout of this information will likely not be in a format suitable for public use; and (c) the administration of bus companies are run on a shoestring - there would be an additional staff cost to keep such public facing information up-to-date, especially as there would probably be no simple link between the public information and what is contained in the electronic data sets to ensure accuracy.

I expect that bus companies are well aware that providing fare details would be a welcome (some might say essential) improvement to passenger information, but this has to be balanced with the cost benefit of providing such information. Indeed, some companies have gone some way down this road already. However, this has been full of pitfalls, and from this experience there will certainly be a thought of 'no information is better than wrong information'.

I expect that there is no simple program to be written and interfaced with journey planners - if there was it would have been written by now. The database will be a problem, and the system of 'stages' covering 100 times as many bus stops as there are railway stations, including multiple stops at the same location, and the fact that there never has been any kind of unified fare system, will all be issues. Plenty of work going on behind the scenes, and plenty more still to do!

Fares in this country are totally de-regulated, just like supermarket prices. There is no regulatory oversight by Traffic Commissioners or Local Authorities.

 

[PeterC]

other than directly to drivers at time of sale

At which point you are told that change is not given.

I don't have an issue generally about this but where exact fares are insisted upon then they really must be available before the passenger even attempts to board.

 

[radamfi]

I expect that (a) bus companies get comparatively few requests for detailed fare information, other than directly to drivers at time of sale; (b) as with the railways, fare 'tables' are probably not produced anymore - all the information is contained within the database of electronic ticket machines and displayed on those machines when a Origin & Destination is selected; any printout of this information will likely not be in a format suitable for public use; and (c) the administration of bus companies are run on a shoestring - there would be an additional staff cost to keep such public facing information up-to-date, especially as there would probably be no simple link between the public information and what is contained in the electronic data sets to ensure accuracy.

I expect that bus companies are well aware that providing fare details would be a welcome (some might say essential) improvement to passenger information, but this has to be balanced with the cost benefit of providing such information. Indeed, some companies have gone some way down this road already. However, this has been full of pitfalls, and from this experience there will certainly be a thought of 'no information is better than wrong information'.

I expect that there is no simple program to be written and interfaced with journey planners - if there was it would have been written by now. The database will be a problem, and the system of 'stages' covering 100 times as many bus stops as there are railway stations, including multiple stops at the same location, and the fact that there never has been any kind of unified fare system, will all be issues. Plenty of work going on behind the scenes, and plenty more still to do!

Fares in this country are totally de-regulated, just like supermarket prices. There is no regulatory oversight by Traffic Commissioners or Local Authorities.

I hope this post is an attempt to understand why some operators don't provide fare information, rather than justification of why they shouldn't provide it.

 

[Stan Drews]

I tweeted my local bus company to ask why it's so hard to find out single and return fares. It's been ignored for 2 days.

Did you ask for a specific fare, or were you enquiring why they didn't have fare tables available on their website?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I hope this post is an attempt to understand why some operators don't provide fare information, rather than justification of why they shouldn't provide it.

I'd say it was a very good attempt to show that it isn't just the simple task that some are suggesting, and that there are some quite complex issues to be overcome. I'd imagine it's far simpler in city areas where fares tend to be more straightforward. However in the traditional country (or mixed) areas it must be a Herculean task!

 

[MedwayValiant]

What do bus operators do if the ticket machine breaks down in service? Is that a reason to take the bus out of service and turf the passengers off, or does anyone who boards when the machine is not working get a free ride?

Or do drivers still have old-fashioned triangular fare tables in their bags, to which they can then resort? If it's this, it would be a simple enough task to make them into PDFs. Even if the operator doesn't want to put these onto their website, it could at least send them to anyone who asks.

 

[Deerfold]

Did you ask for a specific fare, or were you enquiring why they didn't have fare tables available on their website?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I'd say it was a very good attempt to show that it isn't just the simple task that some are suggesting, and that there are some quite complex issues to be overcome. I'd imagine it's far simpler in city areas where fares tend to be more straightforward. However in the traditional country (or mixed) areas it must be a Herculean task!

I had previously been trying to find out how my much the fares I commonlt use have gone up (they went up last Sunday). They could tell me an "up to" amount but not the actual amounts. I was told that would be going on their website but it didn't. They ignored my next tweet so I asked why it was hard to find this information out (I'd also tried asking at the bus station office who were unable to help either). After a further tweet asking if fares are a secret they've provided a phone number where they say I can ask for the fares and said of course they're not a secret - 5 days after the tweet asking why it was so hard to find out fares and 9 days after I tweeted asking how much my fares had gone up.

I'm not sure why it's hard to give fares for a particular route for a particular fare. The drivers's machines give this information easily enough.

The bus company in question has 26 routes, with 21 of them running from Keighley.

 

[ag51ruk]

What do bus operators do if the ticket machine breaks down in service? Is that a reason to take the bus out of service and turf the passengers off, or does anyone who boards when the machine is not working get a free ride?

Or do drivers still have old-fashioned triangular fare tables in their bags, to which they can then resort? If it's this, it would be a simple enough task to make them into PDFs. Even if the operator doesn't want to put these onto their website, it could at least send them to anyone who asks.

Trent Barton have long had a policy that you could travel free if they can't issue a ticket (going back to Trent days when I'm told you got a free trip if they had no conductor available - although that's a bit before my time!)

 

[Busaholic]

Trent Barton have long had a policy that you could travel free if they can't issue a ticket (going back to Trent days when I'm told you got a free trip if they had no conductor available - although that's a bit before my time!)

Transport for London has issued an edict requiring buses without functioning ticket machines to be immediately taken out of service. I can see that coming back and biting them on the ... if it happens too often, particularly if it seems to happen with certain operators, routes and individual drivers rather more than with others.

On the matter of Traffic Commissioners being required to hold, but not approve, fare information, this could also be of use to a local authority in dispute with an individual operator about free pass recompensation, if the bus company was claiming that the full fare was such-and-such and the authority queried it.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Fares in this country are totally de-regulated, just like supermarket prices. There is no regulatory oversight by Traffic Commissioners or Local Authorities.

If we are talking bus and coach fares on services being provided commercially, then yes : if the service is being provided on behalf of a local or other authority, then no!

 

[RT4038]

I hope this post is an attempt to understand why some operators don't provide fare information, rather than justification of why they shouldn't provide it.

Correct. The information should be provided, and it needs to be in a format that the general public will understand (i.e. not complex tables) and accurate and at a reasonable expense to the operator. I think this is proving to be quite a challenge.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I'm not sure why it's hard to give fares for a particular route for a particular fare. The drivers's machines give this information easily enough.

I expect it is because there are no Drivers ticket machines where the tweet is being answered from?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

If we are talking bus and coach fares on services being provided commercially, then yes : if the service is being provided on behalf of a local or other authority, then no!

To be pedantic, even in this case there is no 'regulation' of fares. The Local or other Authority can specify whatever fare they like, as indicated in the tender.
Many Authorities do not specify fares in their contracts, or merely specify a maximum fare which are usually in line with, or higher, than the local major commercial operators
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

On the matter of Traffic Commissioners being required to hold, but not approve, fare information, this could also be of use to a local authority in dispute with an individual operator about free pass recompensation, if the bus company was claiming that the full fare was such-and-such and the authority queried it.

This is not usually how the free pass compensation works, so is an irrelevant consideration.

 

[SCH117X]

Deerfolds problems with Transdev Keighley seem very odd, Trandev Harrogate replied quickly to my fare enquiry. Think the new fortcoming Act, or whatever it is, includes a requirement for fares to be published on web sites. Alex Hornby made a few tweets some time back referring to a new web site being worked on so maybe that will include the details.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

One of the cases where trains are still ahead of buses for usability. The other is "real time" - still very patchy availability, which leads to the situation of waiting in the rain at a bus stop in the middle of nowhere being not quite sure if a bus is going to appear late, or not at all.

Even odder when its Transdevs new deluxe 36 vehicles. Apparently its a fault out of their control! At least at the moment you can easilly tell which 36 workings are being worked by other vehicles as the real time display shows up for them. The other oddity around these parts are Connexions whose real time details only shows on their iphone app, apparently that is as I do not have one.

 

[Busaholic]

Correct. The information should be provided, and it needs to be in a format that the general public will understand (i.e. not complex tables) and accurate and at a reasonable expense to the operator. I think this is proving to be quite a challenge.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


I expect it is because there are no Drivers ticket machines where the tweet is being answered from?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


To be pedantic, even in this case there is no 'regulation' of fares. The Local or other Authority can specify whatever fare they like, as indicated in the tender.
Many Authorities do not specify fares in their contracts, or merely specify a maximum fare which are usually in line with, or higher, than the local major commercial operators
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


This is not usually how the free pass compensation works, so is an irrelevant consideration.

It has been a consideration in the Scottish traffic area, where at least one operator has been taken to court for over-claiming on concessionary fares based on the full fare. Any authority which uses the formula of a stated percentage of the full fare for rebate could be targeted by a 'rogue' operator.

 

[danorak]

Maybe you should make a formal complaint, and then escalate to Passenger Focus. Possibly also emails to the local paper and MP.

Passenger (sic - it's now Transport) Focus has no role in bus complaints; try Bus Users or the Bus Appeals Body. Although the company probably just thought the question was a rhetorical one.

Anyway, I'm surprised no one's picked up on the Buses Minister's comment at the UK Bus Summit on the Buses Bill:
It is in everyone’s interests for people to know as much as possible about the bus services in their area. So our proposal is that all operators will be required to make data about routes, fares and times open and accessible.

 

[jon0844]

I note that Uno (regarded as publicly owned, or private arms length?) display fares (and fares table for the 797) on their website. Quite helpful.

Some fares. Doesn't show the fares for routes that still operate fare stages. I'm not sure you can even see where the fate stages are that easily.

They do give change vouchers though, so exact money isn't essential.

 

[Flying Snail]

I expect that (a) bus companies get comparatively few requests for detailed fare information, other than directly to drivers at time of sale; (b) as with the railways, fare 'tables' are probably not produced anymore - all the information is contained within the database of electronic ticket machines and displayed on those machines when a Origin & Destination is selected; any printout of this information will likely not be in a format suitable for public use; and (c) the administration of bus companies are run on a shoestring - there would be an additional staff cost to keep such public facing information up-to-date, especially as there would probably be no simple link between the public information and what is contained in the electronic data sets to ensure accuracy.

I expect that bus companies are well aware that providing fare details would be a welcome (some might say essential) improvement to passenger information, but this has to be balanced with the cost benefit of providing such information. Indeed, some companies have gone some way down this road already. However, this has been full of pitfalls, and from this experience there will certainly be a thought of 'no information is better than wrong information'.

I expect that there is no simple program to be written and interfaced with journey planners - if there was it would have been written by now. The database will be a problem, and the system of 'stages' covering 100 times as many bus stops as there are railway stations, including multiple stops at the same location, and the fact that there never has been any kind of unified fare system, will all be issues. Plenty of work going on behind the scenes, and plenty more still to do!

Providing a basic fare table is not a massive undertaking, the raw data is already available from whichever database program they use to generate the fare matrix for the ticket machines.

In fact a company has already created a simple web interface for doing just this, I know because the operator I work for used it for a number of years before moving up to an integrated planner/sales system.

http://busfare.co.uk/

Network Warrington still use it. I am guessing it is designed to integrate with
Wayfarer/Parkeon systems only but it wouldn't be difficult to adapt such a system to other manufacturers systems.

What do bus operators do if the ticket machine breaks down in service? Is that a reason to take the bus out of service and turf the passengers off, or does anyone who boards when the machine is not working get a free ride?

Or do drivers still have old-fashioned triangular fare tables in their bags, to which they can then resort? If it's this, it would be a simple enough task to make them into PDFs. Even if the operator doesn't want to put these onto their website, it could at least send them to anyone who asks.

I would be surprised if any large operators these days provide fare tables for machine failures, even if they had them how would the drivers issue tickets, by scribbling on bits of ticket roll?

Fare tables went out the window well before my time when hand-cranked almex A yokes were replaced with wayfarer 3 machines.

A few years ago while in the middle of a protracted switchover of ticket machines the backroom boys managed to corrupt the new system and a portion of our fleet went without working machines for nearly 3 days, lots of happy punters that week.

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

I would be surprised if any large operators these days provide fare tables for machine failures, even if they had them how would the drivers issue tickets, by scribbling on bits of ticket roll?

Quite simply put the driver will use the emergency ticket pack that he is LEGALLY obliged to carry

Fare tables went out the window well before my time when hand-cranked almex A yokes were replaced with wayfarer 3 machines.

A few years ago while in the middle of a protracted switchover of ticket machines the backroom boys managed to corrupt the new system and a portion of our fleet went without working machines for nearly 3 days, lots of happy punters that week.

sounds like a very unprofessional bus company... and one the TC should take a close look at. It is a legal requirement for drivers to carry emergency tickets for when a machine breaks down and also to carry a fare table for the route(s) they are operating...as a driver I INSIST on being provided with both emergency tickets and fare tables before I will go out on a service. I take my legal responsibilities seriously, and I would NOT work for an employer that refuses to give me the tools to do my job properly.

 

[quarella]

It's many years since I came across a bus fare that was not a multiple of 10p - you can also usually work out a maximum by looking at the cost of a day ticket, but it's a pain.

The last time I recall in the UK dealing with bus fares not rounded to the nearest 5p was Avon County Council subsidised services where they just did the percentage increase. For example Badgerline may operate a route commercially but one trip was put out to tender. Badgerline win the tender so instead of being 357 would be 657 (All Avon tendered routes being numbered 5XX-8XX) and if you happened to pick that time instead of paying £1.50 you would pay £1.52. One school run I did was priced at 34p and 28p. They didn't like me because I would ensure I had sufficient change for all the pound coins offered.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Quite simply put the driver will use the emergency ticket pack that he is LEGALLY obliged to carry


sounds like a very unprofessional bus company... and one the TC should take a close look at. It is a legal requirement for drivers to carry emergency tickets for when a machine breaks down and also to carry a fare table for the route(s) they are operating...as a driver I INSIST on being provided with both emergency tickets and fare tables before I will go out on a service. I take my legal responsibilities seriously, and I would NOT work for an employer that refuses to give me the tools to do my job properly.

The relevant act may be found here- http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1990/1020/regulation/3/made

(2) For the purposes of this Part of the Regulations, a sum payable by a passenger on the vehicle shall not be regarded as a fare unless–

(a)it is computed in accordance with a fare table available on the vehicle; and

(b)the fare table contains sufficient information to enable the passenger to ascertain the fare for his journey or the manner in which it is computed.

I still feel a bit guilty over twenty years on regarding the 20p overcharge which resulted in the passenger writing a cheque. I did show him the fare on the fare table for the one subsidised trip the firm I drove for operated. Unfortunately in amongst the small print about displaying the correct number and destination etc on the back of the fare table it said "No fare charged to be higher than £2.40." even though the table went up to £4.00.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I too would like fares to be available so I can identify the most suitable ticket and endeavour to have the correct coinage, cards or notes ready. Oyster is all very well but gets a bit fuzzy round the borders where I am sometimes unsure about acceptance, especially with readers installed so far out. A nationwide scheme like the OV-Chipkaart in the Netherlands I find so easy, and they appear to take cash too.