Heathrow Connect suspended/332s withdrawn from service (running again)

[Tetchytyke]

HEx in the morning can be pretty busy, a lot of long haul flights arrive early in the morning, while a lot of European short haul flyers will be departing

True, but the peak commuter flow is into London. So passengers heading from the airport will already be on the train and sat down, whilst passengers heading to the airport shouldn't find the train too busy.

I'd agree with everyone saying they should have kept the Connects and ditched the Express.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'd agree with everyone saying they should have kept the Connects and ditched the Express.

I think what they did was right for the first few days or so while word got around (as then the extra journey time and lower frequency wouldn't have meant missed flights) but I think they should indeed now move to reinstate Connect and drop HEx if this is going to take a long time to sort.

 

[Mikey C]

True, but the peak commuter flow is into London. So passengers heading from the airport will already be on the train and sat down, whilst passengers heading to the airport shouldn't find the train too busy.

I'd agree with everyone saying they should have kept the Connects and ditched the Express.

On the occasions I've been on them, they can be quite busy; don't forget many of the HEx trains are 10 cars, so running 5 car 360s is already a drop in capacity (albeit with higher density seating to partially make up the difference)

 

[hassaanhc]

I was on an train from reading that called at southall, west ealing,Ealing Broadway. Only problem is that it was crush loaded from hayes (at 10:00am!) And so picked up precisely zero passengers from these stations.

Even on a normal day this service has a 26 minute gap before it at Southall (0936 HC then this 1002 GW). Normally people would wait 4 more minutes for the 1006 HC, but only the xx36 from Southall towards Paddington are being covered with DMUs, not the xx06, so people left behind would have to wait until 1013 and hope that isn't wedged too.

 

[SWT_USER]

Are you serious:roll:??!!

Yes, why wouldn't I be?

 

[61653 HTAFC]

On the occasions I've been on them, they can be quite busy; don't forget many of the HEx trains are 10 cars, so running 5 car 360s is already a drop in capacity (albeit with higher density seating to partially make up the difference)

Heathrow Express though is a service for the elite. At the very least if the current services ran semi-fast it would help reduce overcrowding on the GWR services.

 

[SWT_USER]

Don't understand why GWR don't stop some of the morning fast turbo services that use the slow lines (ex Bourne End/ Henley?) at Hayes/ Southall. These services aren't full and would help ease overcrowding on the other services which could in turn stop at Hanwell/ West Ealing while this is ongoing.

 

[coppercapped]

Heathrow Express though is a service for the elite. At the very least if the current services ran semi-fast it would help reduce overcrowding on the GWR services.

'Elite', what 'elite'? The real elite don't use commercial flights...

 

[Wolfie]

You could presumably use any EMU you liked provided it had GW ATP.

Pedant alert!

You mean 442s, 455s, 456s??? Any AC EMU!!

Don't understand why GWR don't stop some of the morning fast turbo services that use the slow lines (ex Bourne End/ Henley?) at Hayes/ Southall. These services aren't full and would help ease overcrowding on the other services which could in turn stop at Hanwell/ West Ealing while this is ongoing.

Assuming that the timings allow this to be done (which may be doubtful - I am unsure just how busy Paddington is in the peak) GWR would be assisting itself rather than expecting HEX to do so.

Heathrow Express though is a service for the elite. At the very least if the current services ran semi-fast it would help reduce overcrowding on the GWR services.

HEX is an open access operator which is making bets use of it's rolling stock for it's business needs/profits. While I understand the motivation of many on here to assist the greater number the reality is that HEX is not in business to provide commuter services.

 

[Bletchleyite]

'Elite', what 'elite'? The real elite don't use commercial flights...

Long haul they mostly do - in First Class. But they will probably use a limo, not HEx.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

HEX is an open access operator which is making bets use of it's rolling stock for it's business needs/profits. While I understand the motivation to assist the greater number the reality is that HEX is not in business to provide commuter services.

Well, it is, because it operates Connect on behalf of GWR.

I remain amazed that nothing in the contract forces them to operate Connect as a priority, as they can cause GWR to be in breach of their franchise agreement and unable to do a thing about it.

 

[Wolfie]

I remain amazed that nothing in the contract forces them to operate Connect as a priority, as they can cause GWR to be in breach of their franchise agreement and unable to do a thing about it.

I sort of agree - of course it is doubtful that HEX would have signed any such contract....

 

[Bletchleyite]

I sort of agree - of course it is doubtful that HEX would have signed any such contract....

Time for the DfT to step in, then. Does GWR's franchise agreement require them to sign a contract that proper due diligence would deem non-viable?

 

[Steve14]

Don't understand why GWR don't stop some of the morning fast turbo services that use the slow lines (ex Bourne End/ Henley?) at Hayes/ Southall. These services aren't full and would help ease overcrowding on the other services which could in turn stop at Hanwell/ West Ealing while this is ongoing.

Erm how did you assume they aren't full? They are full, any fasts which originate from Bourne End or Henley that stop at Maidenhead and Slough are always full so I don't know how you got this assumption that they aren't. They are full because the timings for when they run are popular and go according to the times people start work.

 

[Wolfie]

Time for the DfT to step in, then. Does GWR's franchise agreement require them to sign a contract that proper due diligence would deem non-viable?

DfT would face litigation if it tried to interfere with HEX's open access agreement.

 

[Bletchleyite]

DfT would face litigation if it tried to interfere with HEX's open access agreement.

But not if it interfered with Connect, which is (at least as far as Hayes) a franchised service.

 

[Wolfie]

But not if it interfered with Connect, which is (at least as far as Hayes) a franchised service.

DfT has no contractual relationship with respect to Heathrow Connect with HEX. DfT contracts GWR as part of it's franchise and as such GWR is legally liable. GWR subcontracts HEX but that act creates no legal contract between DfT and HEX.

Connect has no available rolling stock as HEX are using it's 360s on it's service... it is probable that any attempt to change that by DfT would necessarily result in HEX making an application for judicial review.

 

[SWT_USER]

Assuming that the timings allow this to be done (which may be doubtful - I am unsure just how busy Paddington is in the peak) GWR would be assisting itself rather than expecting HEX to do so.



HEX is an open access operator which is making bets use of it's rolling stock for it's business needs/profits. While I understand the motivation of many on here to assist the greater number the reality is that HEX is not in business to provide commuter services.

I'm sure Paddington is busy in the peak but there are at least 2 spare paths on the slows at the moment as the Greenford service is hourly and only one of the HC paths is being used.

If GWR didn't have any contingencies in the contract with HC then they deserve any punishment coming their way. Sadly I can't see anything being done about it.

 

[Steve14]

Don't understand why GWR don't stop some of the morning fast turbo services that use the slow lines (ex Bourne End/ Henley?) at Hayes/ Southall. These services aren't full and would help ease overcrowding on the other services which could in turn stop at Hanwell/ West Ealing while this is ongoing.

Erm how did you assume they aren't full? They are full, any fasts which originate from Bourne End or Henley that stop at Maidenhead and Slough are always full so I don't know how you got this assumption that they aren't. They are full because the timings for when they run are popular and go according to the times people start work.

 

[Tetchytyke]

'Elite', what 'elite'? The real elite don't use commercial flights...

Long haul they do, in the private suites of first class. Though you're right in that these people are in private limos to Heathrow, not on a train.

If GWR didn't have any contingencies in the contract with HC then they deserve any punishment coming their way.

Agreed. Any other contract has penalties for non-availability of rolling stock, it is quite amazing that there is no such penalty* in this one.

*unless there is, but purely financial, which HEx are passing on to CAF/Siemens as appropriate

 

[matt_world2004]

If GWR didn't have any contingencies in the contract with HC then they deserve any punishment coming their way. Sadly I can't see anything being done about it.

According to a post earlier in the thread they dont.

 

[island]

I wonder if you can get a First class ticket from a Toc booking office? WebTis is currently only selling £17 Standard class singles.

The HEX statement is that if you purchased a BusinessFirst ticket from HEX they will give you a full refund.

 

[332 > 444]

Some of you saying the HEx carts around fresh air most times of the day, that simply isn't true. Peak periods in both directions can be busy with thurs/fri being packed on both sides of the train, now with 8/9 cars being reduced to a 5 car train with 3+2 layout (apart from 360205) it's quite hectic. Only real quiet times are before 7am, between 11 and 1pm (both directions) and after 8pm towards Heathrow.

Remember, Gatwick has other train services in which other people use the cheaper option and Stansted has coaches which can be almost as quick besides the StanEx stops a few times even!

According to their site it shows up until the 11th but I doubt that

 

[JN114]

I wonder if there is any connection to the RAIB report into that low speed derailment at Paddington the other year where the maintenance of the bogie was a contributory factor? Mind you wasn't that one of the T4 shuttles not the actual HEX train?

The 360 incident at Paddington in 2014 was due to track twist, exacerbated by incorrect bogie ride height setup in routine maintenance. No connection to the 332 issues which are structural, and involve fatigue damage to the bogies and their pins.

 

[SWT_USER]

Erm how did you assume they aren't full? They are full, any fasts which originate from Bourne End or Henley that stop at Maidenhead and Slough are always full so I don't know how you got this assumption that they aren't. They are full because the timings for when they run are popular and go according to the times people start work.

I see them go through as I wait on the platform! Busy maybe but not full, still standing room and nowhere near as full as the stopping Reading/ Oxford services or the Heathrow Connect usually is.

 

[Steve14]

I see them go through as I wait on the platform! Busy maybe but not full, still standing room and nowhere near as full as the stopping Reading/ Oxford services or the Heathrow Connect usually is.

Barely any standing room either most of the times.

 

[Nippy]

If it is going to be this long term, then yes 3 X 350s from LM would be handy for HC services from Hayes to Paddington 2+1 spare. Then they can use 4x360s for the hex device, stepping up the up the back workings from Padd meaning one is spare after 19:00 for maintainence. That said what covers the 350s at LM. Are there any 321s available? I too am very surprised that HEX have been allowed to do what they have and just cancel supplying GWR with the Connect service.

 

[Bletchleyite]

LM have just taken a few extra 319s but have not diagrammed them yet. HEx could perhaps pay for any work needed to be done more quickly to get them into service.

 

[coppercapped]

Long haul they do, in the private suites of first class. Though you're right in that these people are in private limos to Heathrow, not on a train.

'Private suites'? I take it you do know what the inside of a long-haul aircraft looks like? I take it that you do know about business jets? Look up, for example, the Gulfstream V.

Agreed. Any other contract has penalties for non-availability of rolling stock, it is quite amazing that there is no such penalty* in this one.

*unless there is, but purely financial, which HEx are passing on to CAF/Siemens as appropriate

Why this rush to find blame and roll out financial penalties? If anything like this does happen it will be months away - in the meantime most reasonable people are probably trying to find solutions to, and then fix, the problems.

 

[matt_world2004]

'Private suites'? I take it you do know what the inside of a long-haul aircraft looks like? I take it that you do know about business jets? Look up, for example, the Gulfstream V.



Why this rush to find blame and roll out financial penalties? If anything like this does happen it will be months away - in the meantime most reasonable people are probably trying to find solutions to, and then fix, the problems.

Well a financial penalty would fix the problem as it would disenstivise hah from pulling the connect to fix the express.

 

[D1009]

If it is going to be this long term, then yes 3 X 350s from LM would be handy for HC services from Hayes to Paddington 2+1 spare. Then they can use 4x360s for the hex device, stepping up the up the back workings from Padd meaning one is spare after 19:00 for maintainence. That said what covers the 350s at LM. Are there any 321s available? I too am very surprised that HEX have been allowed to do what they have and just cancel supplying GWR with the Connect service.

In the not so long term there will be 387s available.