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Travel Beyond Validity...

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anme

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This ^^^

I now await a post from the usual suspect stating that this is bad advice but offering no explanation as to why it is bad advice and then ignoring any request to provide explanation.

The poster explicitly wrote that this was not advice.

The point is how much time and effort the OP wishes to devote to potentially fighting their case, and how much risk they are prepared to expose themselves to. They might decide not to pay, and to fight to the end - in which case I wish them good luck. Alternatively, they might decide to pay, appeal and otherwise get on with their lives (with perhaps a letter to customer services or their MP). I don't defend the TOC (assuming they are in the wrong), but there are worse injustices in the world than an incorrect £20 penalty fare. That's a decision for the OP.
 
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trainagogo

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However, this is not intended either as specific advice to this OP or as generic advice, since each circumstance will differ, as will the attitude of an individual OP towards risk and hassle.

Thanks for that. :)
 

miami

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That screenshot doesn't prove that the OP intended to actually travel to HAP. They could be using a loophole to get a cheaper fare to WTM.

I don't believe the OP was doing this, but the TOC could attempt a prosecution on that basis.

Are you saying that the OP would have to prove their innocence in a criminal case? Rather than the procescution having to prove beyond reasonable doubt that a person travelling from A to B on an itinerary given by the railway is actually a fare evader?
 

najaB

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Are you saying that the OP would have to prove their innocence in a criminal case? Rather than the procescution having to prove beyond reasonable doubt that a person travelling from A to B on an itinerary given by the railway is actually a fare evader?
No, the burden of proof would still be on the TOC. The question that was being answered was how, hypothetically, intent could be shown.

The TOC would ask the court to consider that the defendant was deliberately short faring and have to present evidence to support that contention. Such evidence could be that the defendant allowed a direct train A to B train to depart, boarded an A to C train and left the station at C.

Again, there is nothing in the OP's post that indicates that is what they did.
 

miami

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No, the burden of proof would still be on the TOC. The question that was being answered was how, hypothetically, intent could be shown.

The TOC would ask the court to consider that the defendant was deliberately short faring and have to present evidence to support that contention. Such evidence could be that the defendant allowed a direct train A to B train to depart, boarded an A to C train and left the station at C.

Again, there is nothing in the OP's post that indicates that is what they did.


Even if they did, if it's a valid route (which as its on the NRE it is), and the fare allows BOJ, how would it be illegal?
 

najaB

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Even if they did, if it's a valid route (which as its on the NRE it is), and the fare allows BOJ, how would it be illegal?
That's why I agreed with bb21 that an attempt at prosecution would be unlikely, and a successful one even less so.

It's a loophole and they are always problematic - is it really stopping short if you pass your destination?
 

jkdd77

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I now await a post from the usual suspect stating that this is bad advice but offering no explanation as to why it is bad advice and then ignoring any request to provide explanation.

In fairness to the poster in question, whom I believe to be a very long-serving, well-respected and highly qualified member of this form, any advice may turn out to be poor advice with the benefit of hindsight, which none of us have. If the OP pays, when the TOC would not in fact have prosecuted (after all, he/ she had a valid ticket, so it might be argued that the chance of being prosecuted is substantially lower than with a 'normal' unpaid PF), then advice to pay would, with hindsight, have been bad advice. Conversely, if the OP does not pay, and ultimately ends up being convicted, then advice not to pay would, with hindsight, have been very bad advice indeed.

I do not think it is helpful for forum members to tell each other that they are giving poor advice, unless the advice is blatantly incorrect, profoundly unwise or likely to lead to the commission of criminal offences, in which case a brief explanation should be given (and the moderating team may well intervene anyway).

I cannot claim to be completely innocent on this front, but, nonetheless, I admit that it frustrates me that certain member(s) will appear to advise as follows:

1) Passenger makes mistake as to ticket validity: Passenger must pay whatever is demanded, and TOCs are entitled to charge £80+ for spending a few minutes issuing the PF/ UFN/ demand for payment in lieu of prosecution (which might fairly be characterised as a form of ransom demand, particularly when the traveller has neither admitted liability nor requested any form of settlement).

2) TOC makes mistake as to ticket validity: Passenger must pay whatever is demanded anyway regardless or be convicted despite their complete innocence; any attempt to recover any amount at all is doomed to failure, and the passenger is not entitled to charge for their time spent dealing with the matter.

Pragmatism is one thing, but simply paying unenforceable ransom demands left, right and centre does not strike me as being particularly pragmatic, and urging others to pay such demands seems to me to be a counsel of despair.

However, this is of limited relevance to the OP in his/ her specific case, who must make a decision for himself or herself based on a number of factors, some of which we may not even be aware of.

My only specific advice at this point is:
1) to appeal promptly, if he/ she hasn't already done so, and;
2) to delay a decision until towards the end of the 21 day period giving for paying the invalid PF.

If the OP chooses to pay at this point, he/ she will not have lost anything compared to paying now, and there is a chance that the appeal might be upheld in the meantime. However, if the OP has not paid the invalid PF within the 21 day period given for payment, the stakes will rise in that the amount demanded to be certain of avoiding prosecution will be inflated by supposed 'administration fees'.

If the inflated amount demanded is not then paid, there is a chance that nothing more will happen, but there is also a chance that the invalid PF and its associated 'administration fees' may be cancelled and the OP prosecuted.

One may well infer from my previous post what I would do if in the OP's position, but perhaps it is easy for me to be a 'keyboard warrior' when I am not the one who would have to deal with the consequences if it all goes wrong.
 
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bb21

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I do not think it is helpful for forum members to tell each other that they are giving poor advice, unless the advice is blatantly incorrect, profoundly unwise or likely to lead to the commission of criminal offences, in which case a brief explanation should be given (and the moderating team may well intervene anyway).

Absolutely.
 

trainagogo

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Just a quick update. The appeal was rejected, letter attached.

I would be interested in your thoughts. It doesn't seem right that anyone should be expected to pay a penalty fare for following the fastest route shown on the railway operator's own website.
 

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najaB

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I would be interested in your thoughts. It doesn't seem right that anyone should be expected to pay a penalty fare for following the fastest route shown on the railway operator's own website.
That's unfortunate, but not completely unexpected. You seem to have fallen into a 'trap'* where a route that the operator doesn't intend to be valid is shown on their website. The fact that NRE showed the route makes it valid, but how much time/effort/money are you willing to invest in being right?

If I were in your position, and assuming that you can afford the £20 hit, I would pay the Penalty Fare (to prevent the matter from escalating) and then pester customer services and the MD to attempt to get it refunded.

------
*The use of the word 'trap' isn't intended to imply that this is something that has been done deliberately.
 
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jkdd77

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This may be somewhat off-topic, but I have increasingly come to question the independence, impartiality and competence of the IAS appeals system, especially where a passenger was wrongly given a PF/ UFN despite holding and showing a 100% valid ticket.

This isn't just based on this thread, or even on this forum, but on many such cases listed on or by multiple sources. In any case, I don't see how an appeals system run by a TOC, namely, Southeastern, can possibly be said to be even remotely independent of the rail industry.
 

furlong

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Just a quick update. The appeal was rejected, letter attached.

I would be interested in your thoughts. It doesn't seem right that anyone should be expected to pay a penalty fare for following the fastest route shown on the railway operator's own website.

If you supplied a print out of the website showing the ticket to be valid on that route (as per the Routeing Guide), then I would suggest you now write to the DfT (copied to the MD). Supply a copy of the correspondence so far and state that you believe this constitutes evidence that the company is not following the Regulations - specifically that no Penalty Fare should have been issued, and further, given that it was, the mistake should have been corrected immediately upon appeal - and consequently request that the DfT issue a prohibition notice on these grounds (in accordance with the SRA's Penalty Fares Rules, see below) until such time as the company can provide satisfactory assurances that it is compliant.

(The DfT now performs the role of the SRA, as far as I know.)

13 When the SRA may prevent an operator charging penalty fares
13.1 The SRA may issue a prohibition notice preventing an operator from charging penalty fares if it has reasonable grounds for suspecting that the operator is not following any part of the Regulations, these rules or their own approved penalty fares scheme, or is operating their scheme in a way which the SRA reasonably considers does not provide sufficient protection for passengers.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Thanks najaB, sound advice. The 'Penalty' has just been paid.

And if you consider that the company has persuaded you into paying it money to which it was not entitled, you also have an escalation route through the ORR under the consumer regulations, whereby the ORR could, theoretically at least, decide to prosecute the company. (Contravenes the requirements of professional diligence? Aggressive commercial practice?)
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Returning to the first point, you should fill out the logic for the DfT.

- Quote the preamble at http://data.atoc.org/routeing-guide :

This guide shows the full range of permitted routes available for use with tickets on the National Rail network. The content has been approved by the Department for Transport. If you are planning a journey we would strongly advise you to make use of the Journey Planner at www.nationalrail.co.uk. Any ticket indicated for use in conjunction with a particular journey when using the Journey Planner will automatically be valid for the route and service indicated.

- You would be supplying what you consider prima facie evidence that the company is operating its scheme in a way which does not provide sufficient protection for passengers.

- Further, any failure to accept a valid ticket while travelling, also may constitute prima facie evidence of a breach of the franchise agreement so you can ask the DfT to investigate this aspect separately and consider issuing a breach notice too:

From the TSA:

10-1 THE OBLIGATION OF THE OPERATORS TO CARRY PASSENGERS
(1) Fares in respect of which the Operators are bound
An Operator is bound to carry on its trains each Purchaser of a Fare, in accordance with its terms, for the whole or any part of the journey for which the Fare entitles him to use those trains.

And from an existing Breach Notice for another company:
Failure by the Franchisee to abide by the obligations of the TSA is a breach of the Franchise Agreement.
 
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RailComments

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Just as a note, it appears something has happened since the OPs journey as when running a similar enquiry on National Rail Enquiries now, for instance this coming Wednesday 2nd March 2016 now says more than one ticket is required if travelling via Witham:
 

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trainagogo

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Furlong, thank you for your help.

Regarding the appeal, I attached the following:

1. Screenshot of the route on thetrainline.com
2. Screenshot of the route on National Rail
3. Screenshot of the route on Abellio's website
4. Copy of nursery letter (stating child had to be picked up as a matter of urgency)
5. Copy of ticket

Having looked back through the thread, one thing I didn't make clear was that on the day in question I had a return ticket from Hatfield Peverel (HP) to London (with all zones). I checked the route on approach to Chelmsford as I prepared to leave the train to wait for the next direct service. It was then I took the guidance of the online route planners (Chelmsford to HP), stayed on and was removed at Witham. Does this change anything?
 

furlong

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Having looked back through the thread, one thing I didn't make clear was that on the day in question I had a return ticket from Hatfield Peverel (HP) to London (with all zones)
...
Does this change anything?

Yes. You cannot use a print out of a route relating to one ticket as authority to travel on a different ticket. You need to check the route for the actual ticket you held on NRE.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Precisely what ticket did you hold and at what price?
 

najaB

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Having looked back through the thread, one thing I didn't make clear was that on the day in question I had a return ticket from Hatfield Peverel (HP) to London (with all zones).
Whoa, whoa, whoa....

You had a London to Hatfield Peverel ticket?!?! That's not valid via Witham.
 

furlong

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You had a London to Hatfield Peverel ticket?!?! That's not valid via Witham.

It possibly was though - had the right query been entered into NRE it could have shown it as valid - we can see that the NRE data has been changed since then.

Your case is considerably weaker without evidence to show that the websites were claiming your *actual* ticket was valid.

You're now stuck with a more complicated argument that both the validity of the ticket about which you did enquire necessarily matches the one you possessed AND that this was a reasonable assumption for you to make.

As your argument was that NRE said the ticket was valid, the company ought to have checked your actual ticket on NRE at the time to confirm or contradict this claim. You could try asking NRE if they can supply you with a copy of what the website showed for that journey on the relevant date.

To put it bluntly, you've messed up your appeal.
 

trainagogo

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To put it bluntly, you've messed up your appeal.

Please help me understand.

£44 ticket Hatfield Peverel to London (all zones) and back to Hatfield Peverel:

Chelmsford->Hatfield Peverel - ok
Chelmsford->Witham->Back to Hatfield Peverel - not ok

£4.30 Chelmsford to Hatfield Peverel:

Chelmsford->Hatfield Peverel - ok
Chelmsford->Witham->Back to Hatfield Peverel - ok

Can you understand, if the above is true, the confusion on my part? I'm not exactly a layman (I'm from a railway family and a regular traveler) yet cannot understand the logic here and wouldn't have even attempted said route if I was at all worried about its validity.
 
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najaB

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Can you understand, if the above is true, the confusion on my part? I'm not exactly a layman (I'm from a railway family and a regular traveler) yet cannot understand the logic here and wouldn't have even attempted said route if I was at all worried about its validity.
You're right - it is confusing. But being confused about the rules doesn't change the rules, nor does it excuse you from having to follow them.

From what I can see the route via Witham probably shouldn't have been valid: there isn't really a good reason for it to be and there's no easement to explain why a double-back should've been allowed.

If you had a NRE screenshot showing that the journey you actually took was valid via Witham then you would have had a case for an appeal, but without it you'll have a hard time getting Abellio to refund it.
 

455driver

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Please help me understand.

£44 ticket Hatfield Peverel to London (all zones) and back to Hatfield Peverel:

Chelmsford->Hatfield Peverel - ok
Chelmsford->Witham->Back to Hatfield Peverel - not ok

£4.30 Chelmsford to Hatfield Peverel:

Chelmsford->Hatfield Peverel - ok
Chelmsford->Witham->Back to Hatfield Peverel - ok

Can you understand, if the above is true, the confusion on my part? I'm not exactly a layman (I'm from a railway family and a regular traveler) yet cannot understand the logic here and wouldn't have even attempted said route if I was at all worried about its validity.

The Chelmsford->Witham->Back to Hatfield Peverel ticket shouldn't be valid though, it is an error on the system, you cant use an error on one ticket to validate the same route on a different ticket!
 

furlong

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If you had a NRE screenshot showing that the journey you actually took was valid via Witham then you would have had a case for an appeal, but without it you'll have a hard time getting Abellio to refund it.

I agree. The rules about route validity are ridiculously complicated and each exact case has to be checked carefully and independently. You need to acquire a deep level of understanding before you should ever infer something about one journey from a different one, however superficially similar you might think they are.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
You could make a last attempt to write to the company's customer services to try to persuade them to refund it as you appear to have been misled into taking an invalid route by a mistake on their website that they appear to have since corrected, perhaps even as a result of your case highlighting it. You can take a fresh printout of the same journey you printed out before showing the route is no longer valid.
 
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trainagogo

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You're right - it is confusing. But being confused about the rules doesn't change the rules, nor does it excuse you from having to follow them.

I don't disagree.

If you had a NRE screenshot showing that the journey you actually took was valid via Witham then you would have had a case for an appeal, but without it you'll have a hard time getting Abellio to refund it.

I jumped on the first train at Liverpool Street station to get home for my poorly son (as any normal person would). I then checked ahead of Chelmsford and took the fastest route shown. From Chelmsford the route in the screenshots is the one I followed.

The Chelmsford->Witham->Back to Hatfield Peverel ticket shouldn't be valid though, it is an error on the system, you cant use an error on one ticket to validate the same route on a different ticket!

I agree with you. However, see it from a layman's point of view. Most people I've spoken to about this couldn't see the issue given the 'to' station was the one I was to leave at. The general public don't have the first idea about routing tables, errors or the fact the poorly named 'railway network' operates a system devoid of commonsense (and nor did I when I traveled on that day). I mean, you'd expect the fastest route on one ticket (a cheaper one) to be legal on another?

I agree. The rules about route validity are ridiculously complicated and each exact case has to be checked carefully and independently. You need to acquire a deep level of understanding before you should ever infer something about one journey from a different one, however superficially similar you might think they are.

Yeah, I'm understanding that now! :D

Thanks to everyone who helped me and apologies for the confusion.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
You could make a last attempt to write to the company's customer services to try to persuade them to refund it as you appear to have been misled into taking an invalid route by a mistake on their website that they appear to have since corrected, perhaps even as a result of your case highlighting it. You can take a fresh printout of the same journey you printed out before showing the route is no longer valid.

I'll certainly speak with them.

Just noticed that:

  • Abellio have removed the return at Witham as an option on their website.
  • As have thetrainline.com.
  • National Rail offer the route at £9.10 rather than the £4.70 quoted before.
 

najaB

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Just noticed that:

  • Abellio have removed the return at Witham as an option on their website.
  • As have thetrainline.com.
  • National Rail offer the route at £9.10 rather than the £4.70 quoted before.
Just so you don't think these were separate actions, they were likely a single update to the fares database.
 

Andrew1395

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Please help me understand.

£44 ticket Hatfield Peverel to London (all zones) and back to Hatfield Peverel:

Chelmsford->Hatfield Peverel - ok
Chelmsford->Witham->Back to Hatfield Peverel - not ok

£4.30 Chelmsford to Hatfield Peverel:

Chelmsford->Hatfield Peverel - ok
Chelmsford->Witham->Back to Hatfield Peverel - ok

Can you understand, if the above is true, the confusion on my part? I'm not exactly a layman (I'm from a railway family and a regular traveler) yet cannot understand the logic here and wouldn't have even attempted said route if I was at all worried about its validity.

It's the local journey rules introduced with the application of the Routeing Guide and the NFM64 fares check. It is called the deviation by double back rule; that in effect says - If in September 1996 the fare for both journeys (Chelmsford to Witham and Chelmsford - Hatfield Peveral) was the same the passenger had not gained any advantage by doing the double back by travelling to Witham, as both are local journeys associated with Chelmsford. It is one of those odd things created at privatisation - a Consequence of regulation that is neither obvious to staff or customers, but never the less enshrined in the logic of retailing systems.
 

Paul Kelly

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In response to najaB's comment, I can't be 100% certain but I really don't think there has been no recent update to the fares database or routeing guide that would invalidate Chelmsford to Hatfield Peverel via Witham. It is still valid (in my opinion at least) by virtue of the through trains to and from common routeing point rule (albeit with the added grey area of having passed non-stop through the destination station, which situation is not specifically allowed or disallowed by the routeing guide). The Greater Anglia website, Trainline and National Rail Enquiries all use the same implementation of the routeing guide - the IPTIS journey planner from Silverail. It looks like something has been changed within the journey planner so that it is no longer honouring the through trains to and from common routeing point rule.

But as has mostly been said above, this is irrelevant to the case in hand as, when travelling on the return portion of a Travelcard, the relevant journey is that from the last station passed within Zones 1-6 to the destination, i.e. in this case from Harold Wood to Hatfield Peverel. These two stations have a common routeing point (Shenfield). So the journey was in fact not made on through trains to and from the common routeing point, neither is it on a through train nor on the shortest route (or a route within 3 miles of the shortest), so it definitely was not valid, after all. If the ticket held was Chelmsford to Hatfield Peverel then it would be valid and the OP would have a very good case against Greater Anglia, but (very) unfortunately, he doesn't.
 

najaB

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It looks like something has been changed within the journey planner so that it is no longer honouring the through trains to and from common routeing point rule.
Thanks for that, it confirms my assumption that it was likely a single update that affect all three sources - though it was journey planner rather than the fares database.
 
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