FGW at Paddington still getting evening Off Peak validity spectacularly wrong.

[Peter Mugridge]

When's the next trip?

Don't publish it in advance otherwise they'll make sure very they don't stop him even if it's not fixed "on the ground" yet - we need to know he'll be let through if they don't know in advance he'll be travelling...

 

[najaB]

Don't publish it in advance otherwise they'll make sure very they don't stop him even if it's not fixed "on the ground" yet - we need to know he'll be let through if they don't know in advance he'll be travelling...

Well, the barriers at least will either be fixed or not.

 

[Agent_c]

Don't publish it in advance otherwise they'll make sure very they don't stop him even if it's not fixed "on the ground" yet - we need to know he'll be let through if they don't know in advance he'll be travelling...

If the suspicions some of us have had are correct, it would make him more likely to be stopped incorrectly if the date was published...

 

[Iskra]

Well it appears you've made some progress. Very well done for your persistence on this matter, and it looks like some real change has come about, so a good result.

 

[Hadders]

So it seems that they are going to program the barrier to accept off-peak tickets with the F3 restriction code. What about Off-Peak tickets with different restriction codes that are also valid out of Paddington in the evening peak? Will the barriers be programed to accept these too?

 

[najaB]

What about Off-Peak tickets with different restriction codes that are also valid out of Paddington in the evening peak? Will the barriers be programed to accept these too?

Only time will tell, but one would hope that the fix that they say they have put in place would address all off-peak tickets that were hitherto erroneously rejected.

 

[talldave]

Only time will tell, but one would hope that the fix that they say they have put in place would address all off-peak tickets that were hitherto erroneously rejected.

Until F3 acceptance is proven I'd be sceptical they've updated the barriers at all. As for any other valid tickets, pigs might fly!

 

[Hadders]

Only time will tell, but one would hope that the fix that they say they have put in place would address all off-peak tickets that were hitherto erroneously rejected.

I'd like to think they'd do that but can you really see them doing it?

Perhaps we should have a forum meet at Paddington during the evening peak using valid off-peak tickets with different restriction codes. That would send them into a spin.

 

[nickswift99]

It's not just the gateline staff. On the 1645 ex PAD this evening the Train Manager repeatedly announced that it was a "peak train" and that "no off peak tickets are valid".

 

[Romilly]

On the 1645 ex PAD this evening the Train Manager repeatedly announced that it was a "peak train" and that "no off peak tickets are valid".

This is not solely a problem on trains out of Paddington. You get similarly announcements on e.g. the 1800 Kings X to Edinburgh, even though (for example) the outward portion of a "via London" Bristol-Edinburgh super-offpeak return is valid on the 1800.

 

[Hadders]

It's not just the gateline staff. On the 1645 ex PAD this evening the Train Manager repeatedly announced that it was a "peak train" and that "no off peak tickets are valid".

They always say this although in practice the guards do know that some Off Peak tickets are valid.

For example, the return portion of a Super Off Peak ticket from Reading to Peterborough would be valid on any train from Paddington to Reading.

 

[deltic]

Went through Paddington this evening and staff just opened the gates to the hordes and ticket checks were none existent!

 

[BestWestern]

They always say this although in practice the guards do know that some Off Peak tickets are valid.

For example, the return portion of a Super Off Peak ticket from Reading to Peterborough would be valid on any train from Paddington to Reading.

This is always a tricky one. Any restricted service out of Paddington will without fail reveal passengers holding tickets which aren't valid. In some cases it may be just a handful, in others it may well be a very significant number. The 18.30 and 19.00 tend to be favourites to leave from unbarriered platforms, and are on the cusp of the evening peak and off-peak restrictions; the results are inevitable. Some of these passengers are of course regulars, who know what they're doing. However, many have no idea of the situation. You could argue that the restrictions are advertised on the departure boards and it is up to the passenger to check, but personally I do feel that Guards making clear announcements, prior to departure, is plain old fashioned customer service. It also reduces the conflict, as some passengers will leave, and for those who remain and argue that the restrictions weren't made clear, the response that "we made several announcements before the train left" silences most arguments.

But, what to announce? Yes, it may be misleading to simply state "Ticket X is not valid", but it is surely equally unhelpful to say (as the boards do, in fact) "Ticket X may not be valid..." - what is an intending passenger, sat on a train due to leave in five minutes, supposed to do with that information? It's difficult to get it right; something along the lines of "Tickets X and Y from London Paddington to stations to X is perhaps as close to ideal as we're likely to get, but of course in practice there are many variables (including avoiding the hassle and checking no tickets at all...)!

 

[Bletchleyite]

The PIS displays used to say "First Great Western Off-Peak tickets are not valid", which is a not terrible sum-up of it.

 

[BestWestern]

The PIS displays used to say "First Great Western Off-Peak tickets are not valid", which is a not terrible sum-up of it.

It is unhelpful it you purchased, for example, a return from Bristol to somewhere with the return portion being valid. You'd have bought it from a FGW ticket office...

 

[Greenback]

It is unhelpful it you purchased, for example, a return from Bristol to somewhere with the return portion being valid. You'd have bought it from a FGW ticket office...

I think that is precisely why the displays were changed!

I remember being at Paddington regularly in the late 1990's when the displays simply read that 'Supersaver/Saver tickets are not valid on this service'. Quite rightly, those that did have such tickets that were valid on some of the trains, complained about this misinformation.

 

[100andthirty]

Out of interest and being a novice in the mysteries of ticket restrictions, are there any off peak tickets where Paddington is the start of either portion, where an off peak ticket is valid during the restriction times?

I had got the impression that return tickets from X on GWR to Y on some other TOC via Paddington were the only ones not affected by the restriction.

 

[infobleep]

This is always a tricky one. Any restricted service out of Paddington will without fail reveal passengers holding tickets which aren't valid. In some cases it may be just a handful, in others it may well be a very significant number. The 18.30 and 19.00 tend to be favourites to leave from unbarriered platforms, and are on the cusp of the evening peak and off-peak restrictions; the results are inevitable. Some of these passengers are of course regulars, who know what they're doing. However, many have no idea of the situation. You could argue that the restrictions are advertised on the departure boards and it is up to the passenger to check, but personally I do feel that Guards making clear announcements, prior to departure, is plain old fashioned customer service. It also reduces the conflict, as some passengers will leave, and for those who remain and argue that the restrictions weren't made clear, the response that "we made several announcements before the train left" silences most arguments.

But, what to announce? Yes, it may be misleading to simply state "Ticket X is not valid", but it is surely equally unhelpful to say (as the boards do, in fact) "Ticket X may not be valid..." - what is an intending passenger, sat on a train due to leave in five minutes, supposed to do with that information? It's difficult to get it right; something along the lines of "Tickets X and Y from London Paddington to stations to X is perhaps as close to ideal as we're likely to get, but of course in practice there are many variables (including avoiding the hassle and checking no tickets at all...)!

Well all the penalty fare notice posters use the word may.... So it could be done.

 

[FenMan]

Out of interest and being a novice in the mysteries of ticket restrictions, are there any off peak tickets where Paddington is the start of either portion, where an off peak ticket is valid during the restriction times?

I had got the impression that return tickets from X on GWR to Y on some other TOC via Paddington were the only ones not affected by the restriction.

An example is the 18:03 to Penzance for passengers travelling to GWR destinations west of Exeter St. Davids.

 

[Paul Kelly]

So it seems that they are going to program the barrier to accept off-peak tickets with the F3 restriction code. What about Off-Peak tickets with different restriction codes that are also valid out of Paddington in the evening peak? Will the barriers be programed to accept these too?

The restriction code is not encoded on the magnetic stripe so I doubt this is specifically what is happening. Probably it will only be for these exact fares, and similar flows priced by Southeastern with restriction code F3 - they will allow Off-Peak tickets from a specific list of origin stations through. This is just me speculating of course, but it seems like the only reasonable way of doing it.

I agree with what some posters have said above about the issue with the Train Manager announcing Off-Peak tickets as not being valid being a separate issue. More than once I have been on a train where such an announcement was made, but I was travelling on an Off-Peak ticket that was valid, and it was passed without batting an eyelid. In general Train Managers have much more knowledge of which tickets are/aren't valid than gateline and revenue protection staff, and they are also coming at things from the perspective of providing good customer service, rather than the perspective of trying to catch fare-dodgers, which in my experience is the attitude a lot of the FGW (as-was; I haven't personally had any run-ins with them since the GWR name change) RPIs have.

 

[Via Bank]

Why not simply detail the ticket restrictions on the ticket? There's clearly enough space to print the reservations for Advance tickets on the new format, maybe it could use that space to print (eg) "You cannot board at Paddington between 1600 and 1900." And there's certainly enough space on print at home tickets, and mobile tickets.

And if there isn't enough space to print the restriction, there's a good chance the restriction is too complex.

 

[miami]

Why not simply detail the ticket restrictions on the ticket? There's clearly enough space to print the reservations for Advance tickets on the new format, maybe it could use that space to print (eg) "You cannot board at Paddington between 1600 and 1900." And there's certainly enough space on print at home tickets, and mobile tickets.

And if there isn't enough space to print the restriction, there's a good chance the restriction is too complex.

New tickets explicitly give you the restrictions (they have text saying "See nationalrail.co.uk/YD"). Older tickets have the code in the lower right corner. Many railway staff ignore these.

bnm's code is F3, it's on the ticket, and specifically states the restriction (the same on outbound and return), of

"Not valid on trains timed to depart after 04:29 and before 10:00, except:
09:29 and 09:50 from Hastings
09:32 and 09:53 from St. Leonards Warrior Square
09:56 from West St. Leonards
09:42 from Battle
09:58 from Wadhurst"

However as these restrictions are ignored by the staff what can you do?

 

[Hadders]

Why not simply detail the ticket restrictions on the ticket? There's clearly enough space to print the reservations for Advance tickets on the new format, maybe it could use that space to print (eg) "You cannot board at Paddington between 1600 and 1900." And there's certainly enough space on print at home tickets, and mobile tickets.

And if there isn't enough space to print the restriction, there's a good chance the restriction is too complex.

No need to worry about Advance tickets as they're only valid on the booked train anyway.

Of course the way to make things simpler would be to have blanket restrictions. It could be very simple but very expensive for passengers and not to be recommended.

 

[yorkie]

Out of interest and being a novice in the mysteries of ticket restrictions, are there any off peak tickets where Paddington is the start of either portion, where an off peak ticket is valid during the restriction times?

Loads, I'm sure. An example is London-Glasgow, no restriction out of Paddington.

I had got the impression that return tickets from X on GWR to Y on some other TOC via Paddington were the only ones not affected by the restriction.

There are many thousands of origin/destination combinations with permitted routes out of Paddington, and the restrictions of these will vary considerably.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Why not simply detail the ticket restrictions on the ticket? There's clearly enough space to print the reservations for Advance tickets on the new format, maybe it could use that space to print (eg) "You cannot board at Paddington between 1600 and 1900." And there's certainly enough space on print at home tickets, and mobile tickets.

And if there isn't enough space to print the restriction, there's a good chance the restriction is too complex.

I would agree with this only if tickets were not in any way more restrictive as a result. Which the TOCs would be against. Not gonna happen!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

In general Train Managers have much more knowledge of which tickets are/aren't valid than gateline and revenue protection staff, and they are also coming at things from the perspective of providing good customer service, rather than the perspective of trying to catch fare-dodgers, which in my experience is the attitude a lot of the FGW (as-was; I haven't personally had any run-ins with them since the GWR name change) RPIs have.

Very much so. I know of many incidents where forum members have been victims of GWR revenue or gateline staff. Yet I can only recall one incident of a GWR TM being in the wrong, and that was over a declassified 1st class dispute. There'll always be exceptions to to the rule, but there's a definite correlation there!

 

[bb21]

Dare I say that the solution may be a blanket ban or a gravely simplified list of restriction codes? I would absolutely hate it were it to happen as I know which way it would inevitably go, but I can see many advantages.

As things currently stand, it is virtually impossible to get things right for everyone with regard to those announcements, keeping in mind accuracy, usefulness, practicality and customer service principles.

 

[yorkie]

Of course the way to make things simpler would be to have blanket restrictions. It could be very simple but very expensive for passengers and not to be recommended.

It would indeed make some tickets expensive for certain journeys, and would put sales on Trainsplit.com through the roof, as people would have to "split" to avoid huge price hikes.

For example, XC "simplified" by making (almost) all of its Off Peak Returns not valid until 0930. This forces people to "split" to get the price down to sane levels. In fact, it reduces revenue for XC because the cost of the combination is often lower than the through fare before it was onerously restricted!

If GWR and others were to make the same mistake, then many more journeys would have to be "split".

 

[Bletchleyite]

If GWR and others were to make the same mistake, then many more journeys would have to be "split".

Or in some cases the appeal of a split would be reduced.

If, for instance, a journey via London was simply the sum (in fare and restrictions) of the journey to London and the journey from it, there would be no benefit to splitting at all.

 

[yorkie]

Or in some cases the appeal of a split would be reduced.

If, for instance, a journey via London was simply the sum (in fare and restrictions) of the journey to London and the journey from it, there would be no benefit to splitting at all.

I have no idea how you'd implement this, but any such proposals really ought to go in a new thread!

 

[Llanigraham]

An example is the 18:03 to Penzance for passengers travelling to GWR destinations west of Exeter St. Davids.

Similarly, tickets for beyond Swansea on the South Wales trains, or Worcester on the Hereford line.

 

[miami]

Similarly, tickets for beyond Swansea on the South Wales trains, or Worcester on the Hereford line.

Generally it's

* places which are used for day trips - restrictions
* places which are overnight trips - less restriction