TPE franchise awarded to First

[Bletchleyite]

TPE have begun a very sight livery change, by changing the styling for the word Trans Pennine on the side of the units. Currently the "Pennine" part is pink with the First Logo. It appears to be changing the plain white text and no logo. So far I only seen 185127 done like this

The 185s still have the Keolis "i", this will need to be removed.

I'd expect them to go for a non-First branding, though?

 

[Solent&Wessex]

The 185s still have the Keolis "i", this will need to be removed.

I'd expect them to go for a non-First branding, though?

Starting now the 185s and 170s are being de-branded. The current Transpennine Express logo and wording which features the Keolis i is being removed internally and externally. The First logo is remaining for now, with some neutral Transpennine Express wording. The 350s are staying as they are.

The new livery, logo, branding etc will be launched and rolled out in due course.

 

[northwichcat]

Regarding TPE calling points:

Scottish services will call at Bolton to pick-up/set-down only and they'll be 13 in each direction per day serving Bolton.

The second Liverpool-Manchester via Chat Moss service will call at St Helens Junction and Newton-le-Willows only.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/transpennine-express-2016-rail-franchise-agreement

 

[222001]

Starting now the 185s and 170s are being de-branded. The current Transpennine Express logo and wording which features the Keolis i is being removed internally and externally. The First logo is remaining for now, with some neutral Transpennine Express wording. The 350s are staying as they are.

The new livery, logo, branding etc will be launched and rolled out in due course.

You can just see it here: https://flic.kr/p/EfKigp

It looks like the logo on the 350s, but just missing the 'First' bit.

 

[FordFocus]

Are First Group going to drop 'First' from the TPE branding as per GWR or are they going to stick with it?

 

[222001]

Are First Group going to drop 'First' from the TPE branding as per GWR or are they going to stick with it?

No official announcement regarding that, but it's expected to be corporate free branding.

 

[FordFocus]

Thanks. Seems to be the way forward with most multinationals these days with the exception of Abellio.

 

[Bletchleyite]

And Stagecoach. (Yes, VTEC is a Stagecoach TOC, but use of a third bought-in brand is a different scenario entirely)

 

[222001]

Stagecoach is odd, they use their branding but never mention the brand name...

 

[DeeGee]

Stagecoach is odd, they use their branding but never mention the brand name...

They've done that on the buses here. They've rebranded them all as "simplibus", no mention of Stagecoach anywhere on the bus, but in the usual Stagecoach corporate colours and with a little swirly roundel thing as the dot on the 'i'.

 

[northwichcat]

Stagecoach is odd, they use their branding but never mention the brand name...

Historically when Stagecoach started bus operations in a particular area their buses lacked Stagecoach branding or the name. They liked setting up companies with names sounding similar to existing operators and running services 5 minutes ahead of them using brand new buses and offering very cheap fares. Then one of the two following scenarios occurred:
1. Stagecoach purchased their rival.
2. The rival went of the business.

After which the new buses disappeared and cascaded Stagecoach branded buses appeared.

More recently they've used Magic Bus opposed to trying to imitate their rival's names.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Stagecoach is odd, they use their branding but never mention the brand name...

That's what you can do when you have an incredibly strong brand.
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More recently they've used Magic Bus opposed to trying to imitate their rival's names.

Magic Bus has been going for years. It was originally intended as a predatory thing, but in certain places, primarily Oxford Road, it has turned into a means of price differentiation along the "first and second class" lines.

First and second class buses are not an unknown concept worldwide - even Germany has them in some cities with the Schnellbusse (more comfortable and more direct than a Stadtbus shuttle to your nearest station) coming at a premium.

 

[gimmea50anyday]

MagicBus uses an older fleet of vehicles, essentially stagecoach's internal hand-me-downs when newer vehicles were introduced to an area. Historically they were used to price Finglands off the 192 manchester-stockport-hazel grove route but now are generally used anywhere required. They do typically congregate on Oxford Road routes tho...

 

[thealexweb]

Scottish services will call at Bolton to pick-up/set-down only and they'll be 13 in each direction per day serving Bolton.
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/transpennine-express-2016-rail-franchise-agreement

It is disappointing they are still pursuing this. What other TfGM stations have to endure these restrictions? I believe VTWC have stopped treating Stockport like this. And does anyone know if this means Northern will be able to claim 100% of Manchester to Bolton / Wigan revenue? I certainly would object to Transpennine claiming any after these changes.

 

[mwmbwls]

It is disappointing they are still pursuing this. What other TfGM stations have to endure these restrictions? I believe VTWC have stopped treating Stockport like this. And does anyone know if this means Northern will be able to claim 100% of Manchester to Bolton / Wigan revenue? I certainly would object to Transpennine claiming any after these changes.

How will this be enforced?

 

[WatcherZero]

Revenue is allocated according to the seating capacity each toc provides, since TPE wont be providing any they wont get a share.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

How will this be enforced?

If your onboard when ticket inspector comes by you wont have a valid ticket.

 

[gimmea50anyday]

It cant. Realistically anyway. Just as it couldnt be enforced for Stockport unless an effective ticket barrier for a dedicated platform was employed. The train would be too long to check, and if you came across one, no doubt the length of time it would take to deal with the one would mean the rest of the train would be missed. And besides, how would a conductor such as myself deal with someone in that position?

 

[northwichcat]

The reason the restriction was lifted at Stockport was due to:
a) Northern having to cutback services as a result of VHF
b) Virgin having more spare seats as a result of VHF
So it made sense to allow local Stockport-Manchester journeys to be made on Pendolinos.

However, in the case of TPE and Bolton it does if you board a northbound service with a Bolton ticket:
a) You risk having to buy a new ticket
b) You won't be informed if the train is to miss out Bolton for some reason so it might go straight to Preston where you might encounter some RPIs in possession of a Manchester-Bolton ticket.

 

[pjm0512]

Interesting article regarding First's appointment of 'WCRS' for a re-brand due April: http://m.thedrum.com/news/2016/02/18/first-transpennine-express-hires-creative-agency-wcrs

 

[mwmbwls]

In my experience northbound ticket checks tend to take place north of Bolton - I assume that this is because the northbound load is maximised at this point until Preston. Is this intentional or just pragmatic?

 

[northwichcat]

In my experience northbound ticket checks tend to take place north of Bolton - I assume that this is because the northbound load is maximised at this point until Preston. Is this intentional or just pragmatic?

At present I think all Manchester-Bolton services stop at Salford Crescent meaning there perhaps isn't time for a conductor to do a full ticket check before Bolton as well as the doors.

 

[387star]

yes it is interesting abellio recently rebranded greater anglia to incorporate their name...

which of course is the fourth rebranding in ten years for that route

 

[Bletchleyite]

If your onboard when ticket inspector comes by you wont have a valid ticket.

That is often quoted but it is a matter for some debate, I don't know (perhaps someone else does) if a prosecution on the matter has ever succeeded. I did hear that on the Great Western they used to deliberately miss the stop out sometimes to catch people out (and in such a case a prosecution would succeed, as they had overtravelled).

But in practice, as the objective is simply to reduce overcrowding, not advertising it on the displays and journey planner as calling there is sufficient to reduce overcrowding, even if the odd smart-alec commuter does work it out (as I believe a few do on peak VTs from Euston that "don't" call at MKC).

 

[gimmea50anyday]

yes it is interesting abellio recently rebranded greater anglia to incorporate their name...

which of course is the fourth rebranding in ten years for that route

As is East Coast! And this is the success of privatisation? A new livery, a new tie every 7 years?....

 

[WatcherZero]

Same as BR

1945/48 Black and Crimson
1956 New maroon livery and some green
1965 'Rail Blue'
1976/78' Large Loco' livery, HST Livery
Jaffa Cake Livery
1983 Intercity Livery
1983 ScotRail Livery
1986 Network SouthEast Livery
1986 Provincial Livery
1992 RailExpress livery

That's an average of new livery every 9 years.

 

[driver_m]

That is often quoted but it is a matter for some debate, I don't know (perhaps someone else does) if a prosecution on the matter has ever succeeded. I did hear that on the Great Western they used to deliberately miss the stop out sometimes to catch people out (and in such a case a prosecution would succeed, as they had overtravelled).

But in practice, as the objective is simply to reduce overcrowding, not advertising it on the displays and journey planner as calling there is sufficient to reduce overcrowding, even if the odd smart-alec commuter does work it out (as I believe a few do on peak VTs from Euston that "don't" call at MKC).

It is rare though because the TM's can charge them to the next stopping place and charge them rather a lot for it, if it is Stoke or Crewe for example. No doubt someone with the knowledge will know better but if you take the risk you've got to pay the price. I'd guess the same thing will happen with Bolton set down/pick ups only.

 

[PR1Berske]

In my experience northbound ticket checks tend to take place north of Bolton - I assume that this is because the northbound load is maximised at this point until Preston. Is this intentional or just pragmatic?

I have visited Manchester many times over the last few weekends, and it's certainly noticeable that on-board ticket checks happen either directly before or after Salford Crescent whilst not so common afterwards. Checks after Bolton are uncommon: after Lostock non-existent

 

[mwmbwls]

However, in the case of TPE and Bolton it does if you board a northbound service with a Bolton ticket:
a) You risk having to buy a new ticket
b) You won't be informed if the train is to miss out Bolton for some reason so it might go straight to Preston where you might encounter some RPIs in possession of a Manchester-Bolton ticket.

That is often quoted but it is a matter for some debate, I don't know (perhaps someone else does) if a prosecution on the matter has ever succeeded. I did hear that on the Great Western they used to deliberately miss the stop out sometimes to catch people out (and in such a case a prosecution would succeed, as they had overtravelled). But in practice, as the objective is simply to reduce overcrowding, not advertising it on the displays and journey planner as calling there is sufficient to reduce overcrowding, even if the odd smart-alec commuter does work it out (as I believe a few do on peak VTs from Euston that "don't" call at MKC).

I agree with Neil that omitting the stop from PID’s may discourage the non-cognoscenti and that the cognoscenti will quickly learn to game the system. I believe we can dismiss the idea of skipping a stop as almost invariably passengers board at Bolton heading north. Indeed, you might recall the Boltonian huffing and puffing when the “Scottish Connection” was broken by the spiffing wheeze of sending electric trains via Chat Moss. The burghers of Bolton would not simply countenance skipping their station. The other dimension is that this is a unidirectional problem in that southbound Bolton passengers have to stand on that the last stage of the journey from Scotland – passengers from points north already being seated. In the opposite direction passengers to Bolton are competing for seats with passengers who are travelling further north – in particular those with seat reservations. In the mayhem that is peak time boarding at Oxford Road the seat reservation system collapses as a bum on seat free for all regime applies. On many occasions you can only get to your reserved seat after Bolton and on certain trains Chorley.
I accept the point that Brother Collins makes about the time constraints on the guard between Salford Crescent and Bolton but when the train is full and standing from Oxford Road he is often exiled to the back of the train because all access routes are full of standing passengers. I suspect that crowding on Salford Crescent also makes it necessary from him/her to be at the back of the train reliant on the station staff to supervise loading in the middle and the front.
One other point. IIRC GM Travel Concession Card Holders don’t require a ticket so how are you going to have printed on the back “Not valid on TPE etc,” Guards have better things to do with their time.
Unlike Wigan where the omission of a stop on the 17.XX off the airport does not matter because there will always be two trains to Scotland running close behind having originated in Birmingham or London – in Bolton that option is more restricted and might involve a change at Preston.
Given therefore that restricting northbound Bolton passengers other than by smoke and mirrors/PIDs is not a viable solution – why should TPE give up their share of the ORCATS money
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I have visited Manchester many times over the last few weekends, and it's certainly noticeable that on-board ticket checks happen either directly before or after Salford Crescent whilst not so common afterwards. Checks after Bolton are uncommon: after Lostock non-existent

That might be the case at weekends but during the weekday evening peak, my experience is that there is always a ticket check between the airport and Piccadilly a second between Oxford Road and Chorley and presumably further checks north of Preston after we both will have got off.

 

[Senex]

In the opposite direction passengers to Bolton are competing for seats with passengers who are travelling further north – in particular those with seat reservations. In the mayhem that is peak time boarding at Oxford Road the seat reservation system collapses as a bum on seat free for all regime applies. On many occasions you can only get to your reserved seat after Bolton and on certain trains Chorley.

Is that a reasonable way for a TOC to treat its long-distance customers? To say to someone who's just paid the extortionate price for a walk-up Manchester to Edinburgh ticket or to some frail elderly person with a couple of cases who duly booked an advance ticket with reservation, "Sorry, no seat for you till after Bolton/Chorley because we can't be bothered stopping the short-distance commuters from boarding even though they're not entitled to", seems to be an attitude of considerable contempt towards your own core clientele -- a don't-give-a-damn attitude (but then that's no surprise with TPE).

But it isn't just a TPE problem, is it? The same situation arises on the other side of the Pennines between Leeds and Wakefield with XC (and also of course with TPE between Leeds and Huddersfield). Same too in the Birmingham area. It is possible to organise things so as to make it very unttractive indeed for short-distance passengers to try to use long-distance trains, but no British TOCs save for VTWC and VTEC really seem very interested in looking after their long-distance passengers decently.

 

[PR1Berske]

I suspect this could be a topic for a separate thread. Can railway stations outside the "international" stations filter passengers in that way?