National Rail "Guide to Tickets" Booklet

[Paul Kelly]

Has anybody else seen this little booklet? It seems to have been only recently published (mentions December 2015 on the back page). I came across a copy in Reading station today and am quite impressed with it. It includes a good clear description of what break of journey means and when it is allowed. It explains that tickets expire at 04:29 and clearly mentions the Day 2 validity of Off-Peak Singles and the outward portion of Off-Peak Returns (could be useful to have on your person in the event of a dispute relating to that).

It mentions Rovers & Rangers including a brief summary of the All Line Rover and even has a paragraph on split ticketing, making it clear that a combination of tickets will be sold to you if you know what you require.

There is an interesting list of TOCs on the back page which includes Gatwick Express/Great Northern/Southern/Thameslink all under the same heading.

The only bit I have reservations about is where it says

If you board a train at a time when your Off-Peak ticket is not valid, you will be charged the difference between the fare you've paid and the cheapest valid fare for the service concerned. In some circumstances you may have to pay a Penalty Fare.

Does anybody know what they might be getting at there? I thought you couldn't be penalty fared for having a ticket that was only invalid due to a time restriction.

But all in all, it's a very nice little leaflet; clearly a lot of effort has been put it to make it clear and correct.

 

[Merseysider]

I suppose if the same RPI caught a passenger using an Off-Peak ticket on invalid services a few days in a row, after reminding them, a Penalty Fare would be one option if it was clear they hadn't paid attention/couldn't care less/ were paying the excess when challenged/ made a "genuine mistake" several days on the trot etc etc.

 

[Hadders]

If you had a TOC specific Off-Peak ticket but boarded a train operated by a different TOC then is it permissable to charge a Penalty Fare (where PFs are in operation)

 

[greatkingrat]

I suppose if the same RPI caught a passenger using an Off-Peak ticket on invalid services a few days in a row, after reminding them, a Penalty Fare would be one option if it was clear they hadn't paid attention/couldn't care less/ were paying the excess when challenged/ made a "genuine mistake" several days on the trot etc etc.

I don't believe a Penalty Fare can ever be charged for breach of a time restriction. I believe the only option in the above scenario would be to prosecute if the TOC believes they have sufficient evidence to prove intent to avoid payment of the correct fare.

 

[Mojo]

Is it not just different phrasing of NRCoC condition 12, which states that "you may be required to pay a Penalty Fare?"

Could possibly also be referring to TfL services? On services which the TfL Penalty fares apply, an £80 Penalty fare can be charged for the use of Off-peak tickets when they are not valid.
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I don't believe a Penalty Fare can ever be charged for breach of a time restriction. I believe the only option in the above scenario would be to prosecute if the TOC believes they have sufficient evidence to prove intent to avoid payment of the correct fare.

That is my interpretation of the DfT Penalty Fare rules as well (rule 7.6).

 

[DaveNewcastle]

National Rail "Guide to Tickets" . . . little booklet

I haven't. Can anyone access an electronic version which we can share more widely?

 

[furlong]

I haven't. Can anyone access an electronic version which we can share more widely?

An updated version of this booklet which has been available at stations for quite some time?

 

[Paul Kelly]

An updated version of this booklet which has been available at stations for quite some time?

It is indeed. Much more thorough, consistent and clear than that booklet though.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Is it not just different phrasing of NRCoC condition 12, which states that "you may be required to pay a Penalty Fare?"

I wasn't aware of that but you're definitely right; it ties in perfectly. So are we saying that the NRCoC and the Guide to Fares are both incorrect here, and that TOCs aren't permitted to charge a penalty fare for travelling on a ticket that is only invalid due to a time restriction? It does seem quite harsh given that time restrictions are sometimes debatable, whereas the requirement to "buy before you board" in penalty fares areas is unambiguous.

 

[RochdalePioneers]

Would be interested to see this booklet. Does it mention that cross London tickets should have a cross on the validity? Because I have it in writing from VTEC that this has been dropped (and they're very wrong)

 

[swt_passenger]

The problem with the relevant paragraph of condition 12 is the words 'This rule', highlighted below:

If you have an Off-Peak or Super Off-Peak ticket and board a train on which your ticket is not valid, you will only be charged the difference between the fare you have paid and the cheapest valid Anytime or Off-Peak fare for the service concerned. The same principle will apply if you wish to transfer to first class accommodation. This rule does not apply in designated Penalty Fares areas, where you may be required to pay a Penalty Fare.

'This rule' is a singular term, and comes after the bit about first class. But the paragraph it is included in describes two completely different scenarios.

If it definitely applies to use of off-peak fares then it should be amended to 'These rules etc...'

 

[30907]

The problem with the relevant paragraph of condition 12 is the words 'This rule', highlighted below:



'This rule' is a singular term, and comes after the bit about first class. But the paragraph it is included in describes two completely different scenarios.

If it definitely applies to use of off-peak fares then it should be amended to 'These rules etc...'

No, the rule is "you will only be charged the difference" and applies in either circumstance.

 

[furlong]

The SRA's Penalty Fares scheme policy is perfectly clear on this matter:

Ticket restrictions. Many types of ticket cannot be used at certain times of day, on certain
days of the week or on certain trains. These ticket restrictions can be complicated, and even
familiar tickets such as cheap day returns can have different restrictions on different routes.
If a passenger travels on a train on which their ticket is not valid, it is more likely that the
restrictions were not properly explained to them than that they are deliberately trying to
avoid paying the right fare. We believe that it is up to the train operators to make sure that
each passenger understands the restrictions which apply to the ticket which they are sold.
Under rule 7, a passenger may not be charged a penalty fare if he or she has a ticket for the
journey which they are making that is not valid on that train only because of a ticket
restriction. In these cases, the passenger only needs to pay the excess fare, in line with the
National Rail Conditions of Carriage.

 

[swt_passenger]

Well I thought it was generally known and accepted that in Penalty Fare areas people do get PFs for travelling in First, without the opportunity to pay the difference.

Hence there are definitely two separate interpretations of condition 12.

 

[Sleepy]

Except some TOC have decided to opt out of the auto penalty fare in First Class to allow upgrades on board.

 

[Mojo]

I wasn't aware of that but you're definitely right; it ties in perfectly. So are we saying that the NRCoC and the Guide to Fares are both incorrect here, and that TOCs aren't permitted to charge a penalty fare for travelling on a ticket that is only invalid due to a time restriction?

Penalty fare schemes controlled by TfL *can* issue a Penalty fare for travelling when an Off-peak ticket isn't valid, and the NRCoC still applies to TfL Rail and London Overground services.