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DfT consult on new LM franchise

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Bletchleyite

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Could it not be that a 4 car class 350 would hold more passengers than a 5 car class 444 anyway? What with the bigger first class and less room for standing.

5-car (5x23m) Class 444: 299 Standard, 35 1st
4-car (4x20m) Class 350/1: 210 Standard, 19 1st

So no, not even nearly, unless you're talking about a crush load, which is the whole problem being discussed here and is not desirable.
 
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pt_mad

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5-car (5x23m) Class 444: 299 Standard, 35 1st
4-car (4x20m) Class 350/1: 210 Standard, 19 1st

So no, not even nearly, unless you're talking about a crush load, which is the whole problem being discussed here and is not desirable.

Judging by that, you could have a 6 car class 350 unit for 5 metres extra length (coach lengths only).

Although we don't know whether Stone, Kidsgrove and Alsager could even hold a 5 car 350, let alone a 5 car 444 or 6 car 350. A 4 car 350 could be the absolute maximum?
 
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Bletchleyite

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Judging by that, you could have a 6 car class 350 unit for 5 metres extra length (coach lengths only)

You could, but if you're going for a non standard length (LM's WCML units are all 4x20m) it might as well be 23m or even 26m vehicles. You only really gain from the extra width of a 20m unit if seating it 3+2, and as we are talking pseudo-InterCity here that isn't really on the cards.
 

pt_mad

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Thing is, if they continue to serve the smaller stations, its not really intercity like that. Someone travelling Stone to Stoke for some shopping doesn't require intercity style. They would be better with an accessible train.
 
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Bletchleyite

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Thing is, if they continue to serve the smaller stations, its not really intercity like that. Someone travelling Stone to Stoke for some shopping doesn't require intercity style. They would be better with an accessible train.

It doesn't overly matter what type of train it is (provided it complies with RVAR etc) if it isn't overcrowded. It shouldn't be overcrowded.

I think people like IC layout trains.
 

Class 170101

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I'd imagine that's one option (as it is increasingly a poor fit with LM) and another might be that a replacement local service from Crewe to Stoke would be operated by EMT as an extension of the Derby service, though that would leave an issue with Stone. I suppose XC could be coerced into stopping there instead.

How about Northern extending their Manchester - Crewe service to Stoke and then extend further to Stafford or extend the Manchester - Stoke service there. All covered by EMUs. Stone covered as well.
 

northwichcat

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How about Northern extending their Manchester - Crewe service to Stoke and then extend further to Stafford or extend the Manchester - Stoke service there. All covered by EMUs. Stone covered as well.

Northern extending Manchester-Crewe to Stoke was looked at before but it was decided 2tph between Crewe and Manchester Airport is needed more than an additional service between Crewe and Stoke, so the option of extending the EMT Crewe service to Manchester Airport is supposed to be re-examined at the next recast.

It was proposed Manchester-Stoke stoppers would be transferred to LM and extended to Birmingham via Stone, alongside some XC services being diverted via Crewe and LM's Crewe to London being re-routed away from Stone, but apart from the latter point it's all gone quiet.

The most Network Rail West Coast RUS is where the above ideas are contained.
 

swt_passenger

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Do they have the big accessible space for multiple wheelchair users/bikes/pushchairs etc? The one with the fold down seats?

444s have spaces for three bikes each alongside the small toilets in the two TOSLs, which are basically laid out a bit like a 23m open coach. The bike spaces do not have the flip down seats as seen on 350s and 450s. People often use the bike space for heavy luggage if not being used by bikes.

The other non-driving coach contains all the 'extras', it has the mini-buffet, the guards office, and two large wheelchair spaces adjacent to the disabled toilet. This coach has the doors uniquely positioned significantly further away from the coach end between the wheelchair spaces and the accessible toilet, providing a circulation area for prams and wheelchairs alike, and then there is a couple of bays of 2+2 seats in the area between the accessible toilet and the coach end, this area is under the pantograph well. This picture shows the view from the middle of the coach through the two wheelchair bays, which are each next to a pair of facing normal seats - I assume this is seen as better for those accompanying a wheelchair passenger: http://www.semgonline.com/gallery/pics/js_444018-3.jpg

To the best of my knowledge there are no flip down seats in a 444, but I'd have to do a search to be 100% sure...
 
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al green

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If I want to go to Liverpool from MK I change at Crewe.

When you get to Crewe on the VT do you wait there for 54 mins for the VT to Liv service? Or do you then get a LM to Liv? Having to use different TOCs for each leg of the journey usually means that you can't get cheap single-TOC tickets.
 

Bletchleyite

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When you get to Crewe on the VT do you wait there for 54 mins for the VT to Liv service? Or do you then get a LM to Liv?

I'd take the LM.

Having to use different TOCs for each leg of the journey usually means that you can't get cheap single-TOC tickets.

I normally use walk-ups, very rarely Advances. And there is no permanent VT Only walk-up fare for that journey, nor can there be as VT set the fare.

A curious other option you get (which does often have Advances) is VT to Chester then Merseyrail.
 
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Class 170101

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Northern extending Manchester-Crewe to Stoke was looked at before but it was decided 2tph between Crewe and Manchester Airport is needed more than an additional service between Crewe and Stoke, so the option of extending the EMT Crewe service to Manchester Airport is supposed to be re-examined at the next recast.

It was proposed Manchester-Stoke stoppers would be transferred to LM and extended to Birmingham via Stone, alongside some XC services being diverted via Crewe and LM's Crewe to London being re-routed away from Stone, but apart from the latter point it's all gone quiet.

The most Network Rail West Coast RUS is where the above ideas are contained.

I don't hold out for a great service if the EMT service is extended to Manchester Airport given they don't have a crew depot at Crewe or Manchester so no late finishes or early starts.

However the proposal you have outlined doesn't solve the Stoke to Crewe section of line which would drop from 2tph to 1tph for the intermediate stations.

However more XC services at Crewe I imagine will be welcomed by a lot more people.
 

al green

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I normally use walk-ups, very rarely Advances. And there is no permanent VT Only walk-up fare for that journey, nor can there be as VT set the fare.

.

Well both LM and VT offer permanent walk up TOC-only tickets from MKc to London. One of them must set the fare.
 

Bletchleyite

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Well both LM and VT offer permanent walk up TOC-only tickets from MKc to London. One of them must set the fare.

As I understand it the reason this has happened is that at privatisation VT/ICWC set the fare, allowing then Silverlink to set their own operator specific fare, as at the time VT operated the majority of services. However, as the timetable has developed VT removed many of their stops and made others u/s (some of which has been reversed) and so the fare setting moved over to Silverlink and then LM.

As such, the LM Only fares exist by precedent. They are, as I understand it, allowed to keep them as they precede the change of fare setter, but not introduce any new ones.
 

al green

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As I understand it the reason this has happened is that at privatisation VT/ICWC set the fare, allowing then Silverlink to set their own operator specific fare, as at the time VT operated the majority of services. However, as the timetable has developed VT removed many of their stops and made others u/s (some of which has been reversed) and so the fare setting moved over to Silverlink and then LM.

As such, the LM Only fares exist by precedent. They are, as I understand it, allowed to keep them as they precede the change of fare setter, but not introduce any new ones.

Thanks for that info. Privatisation and fragmentation certainly throw up some bizarre consequences. The sooner we can get back to an integrated and simple rail system the better.
 

pt_mad

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One thing worth considering re the Euston to Crewe LM service is that Grand Central plan to stop or skip stop in the Trent Valley from 2018. Will this affect any proposed calling patterns on the Crewe services next time around with regards to extra capacity needed?
 

geoffk

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Euston - Crewe service; has anyone suggested that those trains which run as 8 cars from Euston leave one set behind at Stafford so as to be able to serve Stone etc.?

I'd also suggest extending this service to Manchester Airport, giving it a service from Stoke and a second train per hour from Crewe etc.

A decision needs to be taken about Barlaston and Wedgwood, which have had no trains for 12 years yet have never been formally closed. Norton Bridge cannot be served as the footbridge has gone. I see all this is on another thread so I won't go on.
 

Class 170101

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Euston - Crewe service; has anyone suggested that those trains which run as 8 cars from Euston leave one set behind at Stafford so as to be able to serve Stone etc.?

Yes. However its unreliable as LM have no train crew there.
 

geoffk

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Don't LM 350s have selective door opening? TPE ones certainly do (and used at Oxenholme).
 

geoffk

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Originally Posted by geoffk View Post
Don't LM 350s have selective door opening? TPE ones certainly do (and used at Oxenholme).

I think I meant to write Oxford Road. As regards the bay at Crewe, what happens with an eight-car unit now? Presumably it goes into a through platform.
 

All Line Rover

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The 06:52 uses platform 5. It appears to arrive in from the south around 10 minutes before departure.
 

ic250

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Are there plans still afoot to upgrade the Northampton Loop Line to 90/100mph running? Surely this would solve some of the capacity issue?
 

Andrew1395

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You might and I probably would, but there are a significant number of people who much prefer a direct service. If course there are people at other stations (such as Nuneaton amongst others) for whom a direct service on LM would likely be quicker. Likewise for the more minor stations north of Crewe going direct to London may be comparable to changing at Crewe in terms of journey times.

If course like the Penzance to Scotland XC services it could well be that it is better to run a long distance service rather than 2 shorter route services. Not for end to end journey but rather because there are a lot of people that use it for short to medium distance travel.

What about Watford Junction then? Virgin threw away their 20 busiest flow when they stopped direct Manchester trains at Watford. I think WFJ Liverpool was in their top 50. More rail customers live within 15 miles of Watford Junction than live in the city of Milton Keynes. LM should be concerned that 70% of their customers and 80% of the income is commuting into Euston and that's the market they need to concentrate on. If they want to take on Virgin, Watford Junction is the railhead that will earn them more money than MK
 
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Bletchleyite

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What about Watford a Junction then? Virgin threw away their 20 busiest flow when they stopped Manchester trains stopping at Watford. I think WFJ was in their top 50. More rail customers live within 15 miles of Watford Junction than live in the city of Milton Keynes.

Do you have evidence for this, including that those customers have been lost rather than making a connectional journey via Euston, MKC, Brum or wherever?

I never saw loads of people getting on or off VTs at Watford, except for when the Southern services were Watford to Clapham only and the 0700ish VT from MKC connected into the main one for getting places sarf ov da Rivva before 0900.

MKC, of course, is (a) not only used by people who live in the Unitary Authority of Milton Keynes, and (b) only has 3tph VT for most of the day (one Brum-Scotland, one Manc, one Chester/North Wales) anyway.

LM should be concerned that 70% of their customers and 80% of the income is commuting into Euston and that's the market they need to concentrate on.

Agreed, LM should not do anything with the 350s that would be to the significant detriment of that primary role. An additional 1846 would mean taking 4 coaches off another peak service, which would not be acceptable. If the Trent Valley service could pay at higher fares, perhaps an additional unit (a 319 maybe?) could be leased to allow it, though.
 

The Planner

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Are there plans still afoot to upgrade the Northampton Loop Line to 90/100mph running? Surely this would solve some of the capacity issue?

It sits on a list of a nice to have, but it won't be happening any time soon.
 

Andrew1395

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Do you have evidence for this, including that those customers have been lost rather than making a connectional journey via Euston, MKC, Brum or wherever?

I never saw loads of people getting on or off VTs at Watford, except for when the Southern services were Watford to Clapham only and the 0700ish VT from MKC connected into the main one for getting places sarf ov da Rivva before 0900.

MKC, of course, is (a) not only used by people who live in the Unitary Authority of Milton Keynes, and (b) only has 3tph VT for most of the day (one Brum-Scotland, one Manc, one Chester/North Wales) anyway.



Agreed, LM should not do anything with the 350s that would be to the significant detriment of that primary role. An additional 1846 would mean taking 4 coaches off another peak service, which would not be acceptable. If the Trent Valley service could pay at higher fares, perhaps an additional unit (a 319 maybe?) could be leased to allow it, though.

Until the timetable change in December 2008, sales data shows that Watford Junction to Manchester Piccadilly was the 28th (not 20th) most important flow for the West Coast franchise. It was always in the top 30 flows. Hardly surprising when you consider the catchment area of the M25 nearby.
In terms of passenger behave, I am sure most would have continued by rail, but some would have been lost, as we know that a significant factor that puts people off of rail travel is interchange. Having recently changed at Milton Keynes on a Saturday Eve after a journey from Stoke - it's a grim place to wait for 20+ minutes, so I would expect once bitten most would go via Euston. Interestingly our outward journeys included seat reservations from Euston, despite paying from Watford only, but showed the reservation on the ticket and got waved through at platform 8 at Euston.
 
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