Unrecorded Accident: December 1963

[UncleArthur]

Hello all.

This is my first post on the forum, which I have joined because of a discovery recently made following the death of my father-in-law. My wife's grandfather (Albert Edward Edgeley) was a train driver working in the Southern Region of British Railways in the '50s and '60s. Following my father-in-law's death, we have found a number of photographs of an accident which appears to be unrecorded anywhere. (I have checked the Railways Archive and carried out a general Google search.)

On the back of each photo is the following statement (on an adhesive typed slip):

"Derailment of 3.30am freight, Bricklayers Arms to Norwood, at Bricklayers Arms branch 3/12/63."

Each photo has a copyright stamp, headed: "British Railways (Southern Region) with the same date.

Albert Edgeley was commended for his actions following the derailment: we have a letter from British Railways signed by G.A. Weedon (Line Manager) and a second letter from Dr Alan Glyn M.P. The former refers to a presentation he attended following the accident, and the latter praises him for his actions.

We cannot find any information regarding this incident on the internet and wondered if anyone on this forum had heard of it. I should also be grateful for suggestions as to where we could research the incident further.

With thanks, in anticipation.

Paul

 

[70014IronDuke]

Hello all.

This is my first post on the forum, which I have joined because of a discovery recently made following the death of my father-in-law. My wife's grandfather (Albert Edward Edgeley) was a train driver working in the Southern Region of British Railways in the '50s and '60s. Following my father-in-law's death, we have found a number of photographs of an accident which appears to be unrecorded anywhere. (I have checked the Railways Archive and carried out a general Google search.)

On the back of each photo is the following statement (on an adhesive typed slip):

"Derailment of 3.30am freight, Bricklayers Arms to Norwood, at Bricklayers Arms branch 3/12/63."
............
With thanks, in anticipation.

Paul

Welcome to this group, which indeed includes many people with an astonishing range of knowledge and advice du chemin de fer.

However, while you may be lucky with someone here, in truth (yes, there are a fair number of exceptions) but IMX many (most?) contributors tend to be a bit more modern times oriented, say, post 1980s.

If I were you, I'd try the Southern email Group

http://www.semgonline.com/

I suppose you know what/where "the Brick" was? I never saw the place when "live", but it is a bit of a romantic depot for me. Whenever I go past the site near London Bridge I stare out of the train and wonder if the ghost of a Schools or D1 or C2X might appear down amongst the flats and abandoned archways.

Good luck with the hunt!

 

[Ash Bridge]

Hello all.

This is my first post on the forum, which I have joined because of a discovery recently made following the death of my father-in-law. My wife's grandfather (Albert Edward Edgeley) was a train driver working in the Southern Region of British Railways in the '50s and '60s. Following my father-in-law's death, we have found a number of photographs of an accident which appears to be unrecorded anywhere. (I have checked the Railways Archive and carried out a general Google search.)

On the back of each photo is the following statement (on an adhesive typed slip):

"Derailment of 3.30am freight, Bricklayers Arms to Norwood, at Bricklayers Arms branch 3/12/63."

Each photo has a copyright stamp, headed: "British Railways (Southern Region) with the same date.

Albert Edgeley was commended for his actions following the derailment: we have a letter from British Railways signed by G.A. Weedon (Line Manager) and a second letter from Dr Alan Glyn M.P. The former refers to a presentation he attended following the accident, and the latter praises him for his actions.

We cannot find any information regarding this incident on the internet and wondered if anyone on this forum had heard of it. I should also be grateful for suggestions as to where we could research the incident further.

With thanks, in anticipation.

Paul

Hello and welcome to the forum,

I have searched all the books I have in my collection relating to the southern region to no avail sadly, what I did find online was a reference to a book entitled "30 Years at Bricklayers Arms" (published around 1986) written by a railwayman who served at that location and in the book he relates to the locomotives, men and events during his time there, a further search revealed Amazon have copies available of this from £3.98, I have no personal idea of the books content but it gets favourable reviews, my though was perhaps if your wife's grandfather was a Bricklayers Arms based driver, there is just a possibility of some info of the event here.

Finally there are people on here with far greater knowledge than I, so hopefully there will be someone along shortly to assist you further, good luck with your search.

 

[30907]

If you can manage to scan and post one or more of the photos, that might allow forum members to comment in general terms about the derailment. At a guess, it would have been at fairly low speed and on a freight only line, so wouldn't have made headlines.

www.kentrail.org.uk is another very informative site in general, but only has a page about the motive power depot as far as I can see.

 

[UncleArthur]

Thank you all for taking the trouble to reply and suggest where I might look next.

As suggested, please find attached scans of the photos of the crash. The final scan is of the back of one of the photos; all the photos have identical comments on the back.

Kind regards,

Paul

 

[John Webb]

The accident, occurring in a goods depot where there was no chance of a passenger train being involved, was probably not investigated by the Railway Inspectorate but left to BR to carry out any investigation.
The National Archives at Kew (formerly the Public Record Office) hold a large number of BR files, and the National Railway Museum at York has information on railway employees which may be worth looking at.

 

[UncleArthur]

The National Archives at Kew (formerly the Public Record Office) hold a large number of BR files, and the National Railway Museum at York has information on railway employees which may be worth looking at.

Thank you, John. That's a great idea! I'd love to know what Albert did that led to him attending a presentation, and receiving a written letter of commendation from his MP.

 

[Darren R]

Was the Bricklayers Arms/Willow Walk branch ever electrified? All the tracks in the photographs are 3rd rail, and in the fourth photograph there is clearly an EMU passing. I don't think that's the Bricklayers Arms branch; whilst it may not be pertinent, narrowing down the actual location may help in the search for information. The information given on the back of the photographs may not necessarily be totally accurate.

 

[edwin_m]

Looking in particular at the fourth photo, the tracks on which the derailment took place don't appear to have third rail but the wagon has fallen onto a third rail track. In the shots showing the wagons after re-railing they are standing on an electrified line, but this probably isn't the site of derailment.

I don't know the area but I guess it would be on the start of the Bricklayers Arms branch before it diverged from the main line, and there was therefore a risk of a passenger train arriving on the track and strking the wreckage with much more serious consequences. One possible reason for a driver receiving a commendation might have been being involved in or witnessing the accident, perhaps even being wounded, and taking prompt steps to stop approaching trains and prevent such a secondary collision. However I must emphasise that this is speculation on my part.

Railways Archive seems to have most of the Inspectorate's accident reports from the era but is not fully comprehensive so it's possible there was an Inspectorate report. However, in the past the threshold for HMRI involvement was a lot higher than for RAIB today, and many of what we would regard as quite serious accidents were only the subject of internal BR Reports. These weren't public documents and I've only ever come across one or two on Railways Archive.

 

[theageofthetra]

I must admit that an accident involving fuel tankers, an electrified railway and what appears to be the running lines must have had the potential to have been quite a major incident. That a local MP was involved suggests it must have been in the public domain. I wonder if there is anything in the archives of local papers?

 

[30907]

Thanks for the scans.

The location is the junction with the Brighton line towards New Cross Gate (Bricklayers Arms Junction).

Photo 9 shows semaphores in the background, which can only belong to North Kent West Junction (which is where the connection from the South Eastern into BA joined that from the Brighton). It was the only mechanical box in the area. They are on the lines from NK East Junction on the SE sides, with the South Eastern "fast" lines viaduct in front of it, visible in other photos too eg no.1.

The tracks in the pictures would then be the Brighton main lines furthest from camera (EPB unit on up fast in one picture, tail lamp visible.), nearer camera the Spur lines, and finally the branch.

Post completely rewritten after further thought.

 

[John Webb]

Sorry - completely missed the third rail presence! The number of tracks etc. does suggest the viaduct approach from New Cross Gate/New Cross/Greenwich towards London Bridge which Bricklayer's Arms came off. If the train was heading to Norwood, that station is on the New Cross Gate line, suggesting the accident may have been in the vicinity of the junction between the branch descending to Bricklayers Arms and the former LBSC New Cross Gate line - my 1955 Railway Atlas refers to this as "Bricklayers Arms Junction", whereas the connections to/from the former SECR lines to Greenwich/New Cross are at the "Surrey Canal" junction.
Curiously in 1963 I was at a secondary school in New Cross but don't recall hearing about this accident. The "Kentish Mercury" was one local paper published at the time; as mentioned by theageofthetra, this is a possible source of information. I think there was also a "Bermondsey Express" around at the time - although I may have the title wrong?

(It looks like 30907 and myself are agreeing on the location as being between the Brighton line and the Bricklayers Arms branch! I would have thought the only route to Norwood would have been onto the Brighton line and straight down it - there was no direct connection from BA to the South London line through Peckham, Tulse Hill etc..)

 

[70014IronDuke]

Sorry - completely missed the third rail presence! The number of tracks etc. does suggest the viaduct approach from New Cross Gate/New Cross/Greenwich towards London Bridge which Bricklayer's Arms came off. If the train was heading to Norwood, that station is on the New Cross Gate line, suggesting the accident may have been in the vicinity of the junction between the branch descending to Bricklayers Arms and the former LBSC New Cross Gate line - my 1955 Railway Atlas refers to this as "Bricklayers Arms Junction", whereas the connections to/from the former SECR lines to Greenwich/New Cross are at the "Surrey Canal" junction.
Curiously in 1963 I was at a secondary school in New Cross but don't recall hearing about this accident. The "Kentish Mercury" was one local paper published at the time; as mentioned by theageofthetra, this is a possible source of information. I think there was also a "Bermondsey Express" around at the time - although I may have the title wrong?

(It looks like 30907 and myself are agreeing on the location as being between the Brighton line and the Bricklayers Arms branch! I would have thought the only route to Norwood would have been onto the Brighton line and straight down it - there was no direct connection from BA to the South London line through Peckham, Tulse Hill etc..)

both your own and 30907's knowledge of this area is much better than mine - but it would seem to me to be a bit north-west of where today there is a massive heating plant - have i got it right? I suppose it is about 2.5 miles north of St Johns station?

Great pics of the Cl 33 - no yellow warning panel.

This may not have caused any casualties, but it seems a major enough incident to have surely have some records somewhere.

 

[UncleArthur]

Once again, thanks for the suggestions for further research. I've spend an hour or so at the National Archive at Kew's website (as suggested by John) without success so far. I've also emailed the Southern Railway Group, as suggested by 70014IronDuke. My thoughts currently are that edwin_m is probably right, in that the accident is probably only mentioned in an internal BR report that I will struggle to find.

In case of interest, I've scanned the two letters that were kept with the photographs. They contain tantalising clues of what Albert got up to, but very little facts!

I'll keep digging, whenever work and family time allow! If I find out anything more, I'll let you know.

Edit: The M.P. letter talks about a report in "the local papers". Guess I'll have a look there.

 

[30907]

(It looks like 30907 and myself are agreeing on the location as being between the Brighton line and the Bricklayers Arms branch! I would have thought the only route to Norwood would have been onto the Brighton line and straight down it - there was no direct connection from BA to the South London line through Peckham, Tulse Hill etc..)

Original post deleted. I was assuming the semaphores were South of the Brighton lines.

 

[30907]

In case of interest, I've scanned the two letters that were kept with the photographs. They contain tantalising clues of what Albert got up to, but very little facts!
Edit: The M.P. letter talks about a report in "the local papers". Guess I'll have a look there.

The first letter is fascinating, suggesting an administration error resulting in the driver having to go to Waterloo on his rest day....

 

[richw]

Search the loco number? D6503 became 33003

The top results on google tell it was written off 5/7/87 at Dormans. Quite safe to say a different accident,.

 

[John Webb]

Actually we aren't quite agreeing. I'm saying the accident happened on the North side of the layout somewhere around Rotherhithe Road.

And that name has now rung a bell! At Rotherhithe Road there were carriage sidings for steam stock , presumably next to the BA branch from NK East, which obviously must have had an exit towards London Bridge. The trap point in picture #8 and the pointwork in #2 must have been part of those.

I rarely used the line back then as I lived in Beckenham, so don't remember the sidings or the exact layout of the tracks, but on reflection the loco is on an Up line. The accident looks like a simple pile-up to me.

But I'm still mystified about where the train would have been headed. Unless perhaps it had run round at Rotherhithe Road and was headed to Blackfriars Goods and then south via Tulse Hill?

I don't have a map showing the Rotherhithe Road carriage sidings, but in "Engineman S.R." by M Jackman (Bradford Barton Ltd, no publication date) it is clear that there was no connection at the 'West' end of these sidings; Jackman states that stock had to be pulled out towards the east onto the main line by the shed pilot and then a train engine hauled them up to London Bridge, Charing Cross or Cannon Street as needed.
So the pointwork you refer to can only be on the south side where the lines from either Rotherhithe Road or BA were coming out onto the main line.

 

[30907]

I don't have a map showing the Rotherhithe Road carriage sidings, but in "Engineman S.R." by M Jackman (Bradford Barton Ltd, no publication date) it is clear that there was no connection at the 'West' end of these sidings; Jackman states that stock had to be pulled out towards the east onto the main line by the shed pilot and then a train engine hauled them up to London Bridge, Charing Cross or Cannon Street as needed.

I stand corrected. And on reflection there are/were enough running lines at BA Junction, though I'm slightly puzzled by the one with the trap point.

I've rewritten earlier posts completely to reflect the corrections.

 

[Darren R]

The MP concerned - Dr Alan Glyn - represented the constituency of Clapham from 1959 to 1964. I'm assuming that Stewarts Lane depot (which appears to have been where Mr Edgeley was based at the time) was in Dr Glyn's constituency. Perhaps a search of the archives of the local newspaper in that part of South London may help?

 

[richw]

There may be a lack of media coverage from 3/12/1963 as it was the same day Roy James was captured- one of the train robbers, so that was big news on the date in question,

 

[UncleArthur]

The MP concerned - Dr Alan Glyn - represented the constituency of Clapham from 1959 to 1964. I'm assuming that Stewarts Lane depot (which appears to have been where Mr Edgeley was based at the time) was in Dr Glyn's constituency. Perhaps a search of the archives of the local newspaper in that part of South London may help?

Possibly not. The Edgeley family lived at Clapham Common (Lydon Road) at the time, so Alan Glyn was Albert's local MP.

 

[Dr Hoo]

The incident received a short write up in Notes and News of the Railway Magazine for March 1964:

"Awards for Gallantry

Awards for gallantry were presented at Waterloo on February 5 to two railwaymen who tackled a fire which started when a tanker loaded with paraffin was derailed at Rotherhithe last December. Framed certificates and cheques for five guineas were presented to Driver Albert Edward Edgeley and Guard Reginald Smith by the General Manager of the Southern Region, who commented on their "great presence of mind and great courage". The citation said the two men displayed "courage and resource" at Bricklayers Arms Junction on December 3, when they successfully extinguished a fire, and by their prompt action "prevented what might otherwise have been a far more serious situation". Both men were later taken to lunch."

Well done both!

 

[UncleArthur]

The incident received a short write up in Notes and News of the Railway Magazine for March 1964.

Thank you so much for posting this! It's great to have an idea of what Albert got up to. I'll pass this on to t'wife; I know she'll be thrilled to hear.

Thanks again,

Paul

 

[70014IronDuke]

Thank you so much for posting this! It's great to have an idea of what Albert got up to. I'll pass this on to t'wife; I know she'll be thrilled to hear.

Thanks again,

Paul

Any more updates on this sleuthing, please?