Network Rail's Linear Scrap Yard

[Taunton]

There was a major derailment years ago, I seem to recall on the LTS in East London, caused by vandals who had trespassed and placed rail offcuts on the running line. After that there was an instant clean up of all the abandoned rail, which lasted for some years. I hope it doesn't come round to this again.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

There was a major derailment years ago, I seem to recall on the LTS in East London, caused by vandals who had trespassed and placed rail offcuts on the running line. After that there was an instant clean up of all the abandoned rail, which lasted for some years. I hope it doesn't come round to this again.

Elm Park - there were fatalities.

There have been several - an ECML sleeper at Prestonpans , and I had 313001 derailed one car between Garston and Bricket Wood in July 1996. Cause was discarded track materials , slovenly abandoned and put on the track by some teenagers in such a way that the lifeguard failed to knock it off.

I went ballistic to Railtrack - and over the next few weeks about 50 tons of materials were recovered in the Watford area.

The miscreants were caught and prosecuted -

 

[Philip Phlopp]

Obviously all this requires funding and the will to do it, but, again, I must point out that it was NR's chief that promised the action, and it would be good to know on what he based his pledge - the railway's operating regime and financial situation were not that different just under a year ago, when he made the speech, after all.

Funding isn't particularly an issue, NR have enough money to do lineside clearance, and done properly, it would be largely self funding, with scrap material recovered and sold.

The problem is possessions - a year ago, the full extent of just how badly behind schedule the GWep was wasn't fully known, the North West schemes hadn't imploded thanks to Balfour's gross incompetence and extra martial activities with Carillion, and we hadn't just been absolutely hammered by months of lousy weather - things have been slipping because of the weather for three or four years now, with Dawlish, Somerset flooding, major landslips, North West and Scottish flooding, Lamington and so on.

If we could get caught up with electrification and resignalling, get ahead of ourselves when it comes to weather issues, it would free up some plant and personnel to do trackside tidying.

Just try to source a RRV flat bed HGV with a HIAB crane on the back if you're not electrification - it ain't happening, it's really tight for plant at the moment.

 

[Deepgreen]

Funding isn't particularly an issue, NR have enough money to do lineside clearance, and done properly, it would be largely self funding, with scrap material recovered and sold.

The problem is possessions - a year ago, the full extent of just how badly behind schedule the GWep was wasn't fully known, the North West schemes hadn't imploded thanks to Balfour's gross incompetence and extra martial activities with Carillion, and we hadn't just been absolutely hammered by months of lousy weather - things have been slipping because of the weather for three or four years now, with Dawlish, Somerset flooding, major landslips, North West and Scottish flooding, Lamington and so on.

If we could get caught up with electrification and resignalling, get ahead of ourselves when it comes to weather issues, it would free up some plant and personnel to do trackside tidying.

Just try to source a RRV flat bed HGV with a HIAB crane on the back if you're not electrification - it ain't happening, it's really tight for plant at the moment.

If funding is not a problem, would it at least not be possible to recruit and purchase/hire the resources to do the work? I know this would not be available instantly, but surely would be possible within a sensible time span? Once again, it would be so useful to know on what Mark Carne based his promise, given that we must assume he would be aware of at least some of the problems of the last few years to which you allude, and that of obtaining possessions.

 

[Dr_Paul]

I've also noticed increasing amounts of scrap rail, usually short lengths but sometimes 10 or 15 feet long, just lying on the side, along with all manner of other debris, and I too wondered whether it might be worth clearing up and flogging as scrap, or whether it would cost too much to make it an economical operation. I was on a working-party on the Ffestiniog Railway many years back and we spent an afternoon scouring Boston Lodge yard for anything that could be flogged as scrap. As we were volunteers, I guess this was an economical use of labour.

As for items placed in the four-foot for future use, I noticed some lengths of new bull-head rail, with a Tata rolling-mark in the web, in the bay at Kingston. I was surprised that it was still being manufactured.

 

[Taunton]

things have been slipping because of the weather for three or four years now, with Dawlish, Somerset flooding, major landslips, North West and Scottish flooding, Lamington and so on.

Yes, yes, yes, any old excuse. The weather issues have always been there, global warming or not we continue to have this thing called winter, what has been lost is the practical ability to deal with them. Look at the weeds allowed to fester nowadays all across the formation. You don't have to have relays of those who have done Botany at university to know those have got their roots down into the drainage courses. How has that been allowed to happen? Across the levels in Somerset has always had winter flooding issues (and I should know) back to steam loco days, but things were well handled and liaison with the river authority kept closely controlled by the local civil engineer - now all thrown away. Successive efforts at cost control where the overhead bureaucracy is maintained but the actual lads out on the line, and the jobs they do, are cut back. Water allowed to stream out of retaining walls for months if not years - then what a surprise, the whole thing falls down. The money has been there, what needs to be looked at better is how it is spent.

 

[Philip Phlopp]

The weather issues have always been there, global warming or not we continue to have this thing called winter, what has been lost is the practical ability to deal with them.

With the utmost respect, that's nonsense.

We're prepared for winter weather, trees down, isolated flooding, small landslips, snow and ice but what nobody at Network Rail, or elsewhere has been truly prepared for is the depth and spread of the problems, sea walls collapsing, bridges being almost washed away, landslips and flooding up and down the country.

What we have all thought were exceptional events which stretched staff, engineering assets and supply chain to breaking point over the past five or ten years are events which have been repeated, often with increasing severity, almost every year since.

I've seen the data from the Centre for Ecology and Hydrology, in 2009, after flooding in the North West, the Honister Pass rain gauge was categorised as a 1 in 480 years event, 6 years later, that record was pretty resoundingly smashed, with an event said to be a 1 in 1300 years occurrence.

I'd guess, though ecology and hydrology is not my forte, that the models will need to be revised and what we think of and plan for as exceptional events are more likely to occur, but as they're all we've really got to plan around at present (and they do involve things like flood levels in places where feeders and ATF sectioning equipment is located) we've used these models to the best of our ability.

When we've got more of a grip on weather events, we're then likely to be able to do something with trackside tidyness, more with vegetation clearance (that's already moving forward though) and things like graffiti removal.

 

[Taunton]

Respect from me too, but I think you will find there has been no upsurge in comparable infrastructure damage at airports, on motorways, etc - certainly not that I am aware of. In fact looking at man hours for winter maintenance on roads compared to say 30 years ago, the amount of salting, frost heave damage (especially), etc, is way down. One downside is that when there is a (lesser amount) of frost/snow overlay, the surface damage then becomes worse because the old budgets for dealing with it are no longer there, particularly on local authority maintained roads.

I think you will find the increase in water permeation is more than offset by the reduction in damage from sub-zero temperatures.

 

[Deepgreen]

With the utmost respect, that's nonsense.

We're prepared for winter weather, trees down, isolated flooding, small landslips, snow and ice but what nobody at Network Rail, or elsewhere has been truly prepared for is the depth and spread of the problems, sea walls collapsing, bridges being almost washed away, landslips and flooding up and down the country.

What we have all thought were exceptional events which stretched staff, engineering assets and supply chain to breaking point over the past five or ten years are events which have been repeated, often with increasing severity, almost every year since.

I've seen the data from the Centre for Ecology and Hydrology, in 2009, after flooding in the North West, the Honister Pass rain gauge was categorised as a 1 in 480 years event, 6 years later, that record was pretty resoundingly smashed, with an event said to be a 1 in 1300 years occurrence.

I'd guess, though ecology and hydrology is not my forte, that the models will need to be revised and what we think of and plan for as exceptional events are more likely to occur, but as they're all we've really got to plan around at present (and they do involve things like flood levels in places where feeders and ATF sectioning equipment is located) we've used these models to the best of our ability.

When we've got more of a grip on weather events, we're then likely to be able to do something with trackside tidyness, more with vegetation clearance (that's already moving forward though) and things like graffiti removal.

While there is probably a great deal of truth in this, someone should have advised Mark Carne not to make promises he could not fulfill, based on the data accumulated!

 

[Philip Phlopp]

Respect from me too, but I think you will find there has been no upsurge in comparable infrastructure damage at airports, on motorways, etc - certainly not that I am aware of. In fact looking at man hours for winter maintenance on roads compared to say 30 years ago, the amount of salting, frost heave damage (especially), etc, is way down. One downside is that when there is a (lesser amount) of frost/snow overlay, the surface damage then becomes worse because the old budgets for dealing with it are no longer there, particularly on local authority maintained roads.

I think you will find the increase in water permeation is more than offset by the reduction in damage from sub-zero temperatures.

I don't know - certainly I've seen a lot of road bridges and entire sections of road washed away or severely damaged just this winter, only looking through papers and online. I believe Aberdeen airport was closed due to a bit of the runway being washed away too.

Airports and motorways don't have complicated electronic signalling and electrical supply systems that need significant repair or total replacement when they've suffered from water ingress/flood damage, they don't have restricted access and loading gauge issues, they're not made from large lumps of concrete and metal which need shifted, fixed, welded or replaced after a flood, and they often avoid some of the more difficult routes railways have been forced to take, so don't have the same number of bridges and tunnels to navigate.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

While there is probably a great deal of truth in this, someone should have advised Mark Carne not to make promises he could not fulfill, based on the data accumulated!

And how was he supposed to know he couldn't fulfil these promises ? There has been an enormous amount of work gone into reworking delivery schedules for repairs/maintenance, upgrades and re-opening, we've been hit by some awful weather, and as a result of both, the asset availability and possession availability simply isn't where it needs to be for a clean-up.

To be crystal clear, to clean up the railway right now, men and equipment would need to be taken from electrification, ongoing large/unexpected repair works such as Lamington or the Dover sea wall, resignalling the GWML, major projects such as London Bridge/ThamesLink or CrossRail and probably even from routine renewals. Then to find safe access windows for the cleanup to begin, additional or longer possessions would be needed, which is disruptive for passengers and freight customers.

Mark has clearly made a pledge or promise in good faith, which I expect he will follow up on eventually, but for the time being, events have overtaken the man.

 

[350401]

The railways certainly seem to be getting worse in terms of trackside debris, flytipping and graffiti. Whilst Phillip Plopp is right in that there are many other more pressing issues and concerns that rightly divert resources (i.e. running a railway), I think it is in part due to a cultural attitude of not caring about how the railway looks, so long as it works.

NR recently cleared the trackside between Earlsfield and Clapham Junction of most trees, leaving a bare litter and garbage strewn trackside. They could easily of instructed the contractors doing those works to tidy up all the mess at the same time, but chose not to. There has been graffiti on the P5 trackside at Wimbledon station for over a year, and despite having a Christmas posession of the railway, did not remove it. These two examples alone are indicative of NR having the resources, and ability, to tidy up the railway but choosing not to.

Tighter contractual requirements to clean up, combined with a bit of a cultural change at NR, is required to sort this issue out. I'm not holding my breath.

 

[Taunton]

The last time I came down the Cotswold Line there was a substantial vegetation slashing exercise had taken place, all left in situ and looking a real mess, in fact I commented on it here in a previous discussion. By the state of the leaves attached to the branches it had been done some considerable time previously. I hope someone had calculated that the felled tree trunks on the embankment side would not roll down to the formation.

Graffiti removal is indeed an "attitude" thing. It is well known that the graffiti on the New York Subway had got way out of control by 1990 on both structures and vehicles, that was then completely overcome in a few years, by changing the attitude. But if we can't even bother to control the ever-larger bushes growing so close to the third rail that they get clonked by the collector beam of each passing train (a certain station in South London I'm looking at you), what hope for graffiti or rail offcuts.

 

[HSTEd]

Doing any of this means a total possesion of the track for numerous additional hours - which isn't going to happen.

The only way to get this under control would be to revert to BR era safety procedures or to simply run less trains.

 

[Deepgreen]

To be crystal clear, to clean up the railway right now, men and equipment would need to be taken from electrification, ongoing large/unexpected repair works such as Lamington or the Dover sea wall, resignalling the GWML, major projects such as London Bridge/ThamesLink or CrossRail and probably even from routine renewals. Then to find safe access windows for the cleanup to begin, additional or longer possessions would be needed, which is disruptive for passengers and freight customers.

Mark has clearly made a pledge or promise in good faith, which I expect he will follow up on eventually, but for the time being, events have overtaken the man.

Indeed - but it would appear that there will be a virtually continuous heavy demand on existing resources for the foreseeable future, hence my suggestion of acquiring more, both people and plant (allowing for the time needed to train people and, possibly, build equipment), to take on the exercise. Otherwise, any clearance work simply will not be programmed in as being too low priority, and the situation will continue to worsen.

 

[Oswyntail]

... to clean up the railway right now, men and equipment would need to be taken from electrification, ongoing large/unexpected repair works ....

There are really two - three - problems here.

1. The huge backlog of clearing up. This should be done, but has to be scheduled and costed as a major project. Not easy, by any means. It should be prioritised alongside every other project.
2. The continuing addition to the mess. This is much simpler, and is a project management issue - clearing up should be a scheduled and costed part of any project. It is not a cost that should be cut. And, like any project task, if it is not completed on time and budget, there should be penalties. It may not be the "glamorous" part, but it is still an essential part.
3. The real killer is the increasing amount of emergency work, but this should not be taking people by surprise. It has been growing across the board in recent years, and is something that needs realistic allowance in resource scheduling.

Sadly, as an outsider, I have no impression of a UK-wide project plan, which would enable resources to be swapped and effects calculated. I hope someone can prove me wrong.

 

[Trog]

For every ballast bag left behind would you leave a £20 note there instead.

But how would you feel if it was going to cost you £30 to collect that £20 note?

 

[GRALISTAIR]

The continuing addition to the mess. This is much simpler, and is a project management issue - clearing up should be a scheduled and costed part of any project. It is not a cost that should be cut. And, like any project task, if it is not completed on time and budget, there should be penalties. It may not be the "glamorous" part, but it is still an essential part.

I totally agree.

 

[DarloRich]

There are really two - three - problems here.

1. The huge backlog of clearing up. This should be done, but has to be scheduled and costed as a major project. Not easy, by any means. It should be prioritised alongside every other project.
2. The continuing addition to the mess. This is much simpler, and is a project management issue - clearing up should be a scheduled and costed part of any project. It is not a cost that should be cut. And, like any project task, if it is not completed on time and budget, there should be penalties. It may not be the "glamorous" part, but it is still an essential part.
3. The real killer is the increasing amount of emergency work, but this should not be taking people by surprise. It has been growing across the board in recent years, and is something that needs realistic allowance in resource scheduling.

Sadly, as an outsider, I have no impression of a UK-wide project plan, which would enable resources to be swapped and effects calculated. I hope someone can prove me wrong.

They are very sensible, common sense based points with which I agree, especially about a resourced project to deliver this work in isolation. However, the issue remains access and penalty payments.

If your possession over runs the costs are extortionate. That is why clearing up gets postponed. You start with a work plan showing everything, including clean up, to be done in the allotted window but as soon as anything slips you put hand back at risk which is unacceptable to everyone.

Many simply have no idea about the challenges faced in maintaining the railway infrastructural and the pressures involved in doing so

I don't know - certainly I've seen a lot of road bridges and entire sections of road washed away or severely damaged just this winter, only looking through papers and online. I believe Aberdeen airport was closed due to a bit of the runway being washed away too.

Airports and motorways don't have complicated electronic signalling and electrical supply systems that need significant repair or total replacement when they've suffered from water ingress/flood damage, they don't have restricted access and loading gauge issues, they're not made from large lumps of concrete and metal which need shifted, fixed, welded or replaced after a flood, and they often avoid some of the more difficult routes railways have been forced to take, so don't have the same number of bridges and tunnels to navigate.

To be crystal clear, to clean up the railway right now, men and equipment would need to be taken from electrification, ongoing large/unexpected repair works such as Lamington or the Dover sea wall, resignalling the GWML, major projects such as London Bridge/ThamesLink or CrossRail and probably even from routine renewals. Then to find safe access windows for the cleanup to begin, additional or longer possessions would be needed, which is disruptive for passengers and freight customers.

Very well put!

 

[306024]

In BR days I recall going to a meeting at March BRSA. (British Rail Staff Association for younger readers). The wall was adorned with old photographs of winners of the 'best kept length' competition. (No sniggering at the back).

Point being that the lineside in these photographs was immaculate, and obviously a source of pride between the local P-way gangs. Pride that seems difficult to engender in today's contractural railway.

 

[Deepgreen]

Essentially, then, the industry is saying that the clear-up will almost certainly never happen because it will always be too difficult and too low a priority. There is expected to be a full programme of major works across the network (using all the resources all of the time) for decades to come, plus the incidence of 'rare' weather incidents becoming common, and further, in parallel with this, the safety regime will probably continue to tighten such that estate clearance will become impossible to do without massive (and therefore unacceptable) disruption. Meanwhile, the problem continues to worsen day-by-day, adding to the likelihood of the 'jam tomorrow' scenario continuing ad infinitum. Splendid!

 

[DarloRich]

Essentially, then, the industry is saying that the clear-up will almost certainly never happen because it will always be too difficult and too low a priority. There is expected to be a full programme of major works across the network (using all the resources all of the time) for decades to come, plus the incidence of 'rare' weather incidents becoming common, and further, in parallel with this, the safety regime will probably continue to tighten such that estate clearance will become impossible to do without massive (and therefore unacceptable) disruption. Meanwhile, the problem continues to worsen day-by-day, adding to the likelihood of the 'jam tomorrow' scenario continuing ad infinitum. Splendid!

No: that isn't whats being said and is your spin to prove your argument. Any clean up wont happen instantly which you and others seem to think should be possible. I am quite sure a clean up will happen if for no other reasons than there are piles of cash waiting to be picked up!

An understanding and consideration of the constraints and realities of working on an operational railway which in places is operated incredibly intensively. How often do you think you get track access on the run into Waterloo? Should that access be used to pick up waste or fix defects? At present both can not be done in the time available.

I will happily admit things are far from perfect and have to be shorted out. The constraints of access and resource in many areas make this very hard in the immediate term.

 

[Marklund]

And how was he supposed to know he couldn't fulfil these promises ?

Like the SWL promises? :roll:
Maybe he shouldn't fill the top positions with Yes men, and instead Engineers that will tell him what is, and isn't possible, before promising the moon.

 

[carriageline]

As others have said, often it's not viable to simply go out there and pick up the rail. Plant cost, getting a rail train, applying for the block etc can push the cost above whatever income the scrap could pay for.

More often than not, there is more 'important' blocks that need to take place first.

I do agree with the sentiment though, it's wrong and it's an accident waiting to happen. Something should be done, but what, I do not know! Thank god it's not my job to work it out!

 

[Philip Phlopp]

Like the SWL promises? :roll:
Maybe he shouldn't fill the top positions with Yes men, and instead Engineers that will tell him what is, and isn't possible, before promising the moon.

He's a good engineer himself, though not railway background. The organisation is now very heavily engineering led, and I do think sometimes it leads to an organisational thing where it's not possible to see the bigger picture, everybody is focused on Key Outputs and minimum disruption to passenger services.

There's certainly a number of staff who do tend to exaggerate what's possible, but equally, what's possible keeps changing as we get screwed around with by government, different demands keep on appearing and disappearing, and the weather will not play ball.

Oh, and one other slight issue - DfT and their TOCs refusing to keep up diversionary route knowledge. It doesn't even need to be for passenger services, if we could avoid having a handful of ECS services shortening the time available for a possession, it might be possible to get in, do the work, and clean up all within one block, rather than only managing to do the work and having to leave track panels and sleepers trackside.

 

[Deepgreen]

No: that isn't whats being said and is your spin to prove your argument. Any clean up wont happen instantly which you and others seem to think should be possible. I am quite sure a clean up will happen if for no other reasons than there are piles of cash waiting to be picked up!

An understanding and consideration of the constraints and realities of working on an operational railway which in places is operated incredibly intensively. How often do you think you get track access on the run into Waterloo? Should that access be used to pick up waste or fix defects? At present both can not be done in the time available.

I will happily admit things are far from perfect and have to be shorted out. The constraints of access and resource in many areas make this very hard in the immediate term.

If you read the thread, I have said already that it obviously won't be instantly-achievable - no-one could expect that. However, the main tenor of posts points towards it simply being postponed indefinitely, as it will always be trumped by a host of other priorities. Your point about Waterloo is virtually what I have already said - the current working regime across the network does not permit the work to be carried out in any foreseeable programme without a different approach. The "piles of cash" have already been there for many years (and decades in many cases - I know of many large piles of old rail which have been there since the 90s at least); it hasn't prompted the work so far.

I DO have an understanding of the constraints of working on the railway - so should Mark Carne - and those constraints can only get tighter - hence my point about 'jam tomorrow'. Incidentally, I am not convinced that a significant proportion of the clearance in areas away from the immediate track-side could not be achieved under the same working regime as tree felling/management. It requires a proactive attitude to organising the work, as opposed to just assuming nothing worthwhile can be done in traffic hours. Even just collecting waste from a length of line in traffic hours (subject to safety requirements such as apply to tree work, for example) and concentrating it in specific sites for later collection from the railway would be a big step forward. Obviously, heavy stuff such as full lengths of rail cannot be treated like this, but much material can be.

 

[Marklund]

He's a good engineer himself, though not railway background.

Imposing a system from his former industry which will not work on his new industry on so many levels, doesn't show great leadership, or engineering skills. (No mobile reception - no permit). It's also worrying he wasn't told NO.

The organisation is now very heavily engineering led, and I do think sometimes it leads to an organisational thing where it's not possible to see the bigger picture, everybody is focused on Key Outputs and minimum disruption to passenger services.

This is the crux of the problem. In maintenance, it is very much target driven, and sadly site clear up isn't a high enough priority. There's also the lack of bodies from 2B/C still. Just remember to get the Safety Hour in though...

There's certainly a number of staff who do tend to exaggerate what's possible, but equally, what's possible keeps changing as we get screwed around with by government, different demands keep on appearing and disappearing, and the weather will not play ball.

Can't disagree here.

Oh, and one other slight issue - DfT and their TOCs refusing to keep up diversionary route knowledge. It doesn't even need to be for passenger services, if we could avoid having a handful of ECS services shortening the time available for a possession, it might be possible to get in, do the work, and clean up all within one block, rather than only managing to do the work and having to leave track panels and sleepers trackside.

Absolutely! Track Access has always been difficult, later and earlier services are making that worse. I do wonder if Train Planning ever speak to Maintenance.

 

[The Planner]

Absolutely! Track Access has always been difficult, later and earlier services are making that worse. I do wonder if Train Planning ever speak to Maintenance.

It should be done under the EAS process where that gets thrashed out, all the route planning managers who would represent maintenance are part of that so I doubt that their corner isn't fought. The Operators do seem to have the upper hand in things though and quite often use refusal of access as a weapon.

 

[Marklund]

It should be done under the EAS process where that gets thrashed out, all the route planning managers who would represent maintenance are part of that so I doubt that their corner isn't fought. The Operators do seem to have the upper hand in things though and quite often use refusal of access as a weapon.

I'm sure that's the case. It's frustrating that the access gets squeezed time and time again.

 

[Ships]

I would like to point out that renewals contractors are obliged to clean the site after the renewal. The TME or representative won't sign off on the TOC the site isn't spotlessly clean, any scrap left is captured in snagging and rectified before final completion.

 

[najaB]

Meanwhile, the problem continues to worsen day-by-day, adding to the likelihood of the 'jam tomorrow' scenario continuing ad infinitum.

I've seen quite a bit of cleanup happening while I've been out and about.