Monthly pass 1 day expired

[Ross1999]

Hi

Looking for some advice. My partner and I were travelling on Greater Anglia. We have been purchasing monthly passes from Manningtree to Liverpool St for over a year.
Yesterday we stupidly forgot to renew the tickets which had expired the day before.

The tickets were checked on the train by the conductor and nothing was said it was only when going through the gates at Liverpool St that we realised the mistake.

We were taken to the side and charged a penalty fare which turns out to be charged at double single. (£60+)

I was given the choice of paying half there and appealing but my partner who was further away was not given this choice and was not told about the appeal process and the expired ticket was ripped up. When asking the lady who dealt with her why she wasn't given this choice we were told "I can't be expected to go through all the rules"

I admit we both failed to present a valid ticket but I do feel the penalty is excessive for a simple mistake where we did offer to pay the fare.
We bought the monthly tickets the same day (so we could get home).

Is it worth appealing on the basis that the penalty is excessive? I'm happy to pay the single fare but am begrudging paying the additional.

Any advice would be really appreciated.

Thanks.

 

[bb21]

Worth appealing? No, as the Penalty Fares Rules stipulates double the full single fare. The RPI accepted that you made a mistake, hence the offering of a Penalty Fare.

Pay it and put it down to experience. If you read through other topics on the forum you will find that it could have been much worse.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

I agree on all points.

There appear to be no grounds on which an Appeal could succeed.
Your claim of a year's good record of paying for your tickets before you travel suggests that you are not a persistent fare evader, and this might explain why you were not investigated for a more serious offence and were simply allowed to proceed with a pay-and-move-on 'Penalty Fare'.

 

[Harpers Tate]

None of which stops you from asking the TOC nicely and politely (for you have no rights as such) to consider your case and contemplate a refund as a goodwill gesture - but only do so after you have paid up in full.

 

[najaB]

None of which stops you from asking the TOC nicely and politely (for you have no rights as such) to consider your case and contemplate a refund as a goodwill gesture - but only do so after you have paid up in full.

Completely agree - comply, then complain. Especially as you admit you were in the wrong, but feel the penalty was disproportionate.

 

[DaleCooper]

Is it worth appealing on the basis that the penalty is excessive? I'm happy to pay the single fare but am begrudging paying the additional.

If they only charged the single fare it would encourage fare dodgers to take a chance knowing that the penalty is only what they would have paid anyway.

 

[Ross1999]

Thanks for the replies.

Completely understand the rules are there for a reason. Will pay up and explain the situation and hopefully it will be seen as the honest mistake. Not holding my breath though

 

[Qwerty133]

Thanks for the replies.

Completely understand the rules are there for a reason. Will pay up and explain the situation and hopefully it will be seen as the honest mistake. Not holding my breath though

It has been seen as a honest mistake, as that is what penalty fares are designed for.

 

[najaB]

It has been seen as a honest mistake, as that is what penalty fares are designed for.

Well, maybe not designed for, but definitely what they are used for.

 

[island]

As above the penalty was issued correctly and a penalty fare is the normal outcome of an honest mistake. Had the inspector believed you were attempting to evade the fare intentionally, you would have been liable to be reported for prosecution.

If you do choose to appeal, which in my view would be an exercise in futility, remember that the period for payment is not suspended whilst your appeal is pending and you need to pay any amount due prior to the indicated deadline or risk additional fees and charges being added to the amount due.

 

[iphone76]

I hope they are able to see this was a genuine mistake.

As an aside, don't forget to claim for any delays you experience on your commutes via the delay repay scheme. I'm sure you will quickly recoup some of your penalty fare and a bit more on top. It takes less than a minute to claim now via the online form.

 

[Darandio]

I hope they are able to see this was a genuine mistake.

They did. A penalty fare was given.

 

[iphone76]

They did. A penalty fare was given.

I understand - but I would have thought they could have checked the records, seen monthly tickets had been purchased for the proceeding year then issued a monthly starting that day. Then said be more careful in the future. Ripping up tickets just doesn't seen like a very "customer friendly" thing to do to someone paying £450/£500+ to use the service.

I totally get that the companies need to protect revenue, but surely the system could be adapted to take this into account.

Years ago in FGE days I forgot my season ticket at home and the ticket office looked up my details and issued me with a return ticket to London - no penalty fares, appeals, refunds.

 

[najaB]

Years ago in FGE days I forgot my season ticket at home and the ticket office looked up my details and issued me with a return ticket to London - no penalty fares, appeals, refunds.

The difference being that you did that at the ticket office - I presume before travel? This was only discovered after the OP had already travelled. As we pointed out up thread, a letter to customer services may well result in some or all of the Penalty Fare being refunded.

 

[DaleCooper]

Ripping up tickets just doesn't seen like a very "customer friendly" thing to do to someone paying £450/£500+ to use the service.

What's wrong with ripping up an expired ticket? It's what the OP should have done that way the problem would be avoided.

Years ago in FGE days I forgot my season ticket at home and the ticket office looked up my details and issued me with a return ticket to London - no penalty fares, appeals, refunds.

Your season ticket hadn't expired so the circumstances are not comparable are they?

 

[iphone76]

The difference being that you did that at the ticket office - I presume before travel? This was only discovered after the OP had already travelled. As we pointed out up thread, a letter to customer services may well result in some or all of the Penalty Fare being refunded.

No - it was after I travelled in to London - they let me through the barrier at Liverpool Street once they saw on the system that I had a ticket and gave me a ticket home.

I did see read was mentioned further up in the thread regarding a refund, but I just thought that in case where it was easy to check that you were a loyal customer, it just seems easier to issue a monthly ticket there and then rather than charge a penalty fare, then presumably sell a monthly ticket then expect the customer to have to email CS and for them to issue a refund.

 

[najaB]

...but I just thought that in case where it was easy to check that you were a loyal customer...

'Easy' is questionable, but quick it definitely is not. At a busy station taking 10 or 15 minutes to walk to the ticket office, validate the passenger has a history of buying season tickets, selling a new season, etc. will leave the barrier line unstaffed for way too long - inconveniencing anyone else who has a ticket that doesn't work in the automatic barrier.

 

[Ross1999]

I was told by the person who dealt with me that if I wanted to appeal I would have to send a photo of the expired ticket with the appeal. My partner was not given that option and could therefore no longer provide the photo of her ticket.

It was also the manner of how she was dealt with. The person who dealt with me was great and explained everything. The person who dealt with my partner was rude and when questioned why she hadn't been given the option to appeal was told that she cannot be expected to give all of the rules.

It just grates when you spend £6000+ a year on a service and are immediately treated as a guilty after one simple mistake.

 

[ian959]

It just grates when you spend £6000+ a year on a service and are immediately treated as a guilty after one simple mistake.

No, you were treated as making a mistake, even though you WERE guilty of travelling without a valid ticket. If they were treating you as guilty, you would be dealing with a lot more than just a penalty fare...

What you may pay for in a year is irrelevant - on the day in question you did not (mistakenly perhaps) have a ticket for the journey you made.

 

[DaleCooper]

I was told by the person who dealt with me that if I wanted to appeal I would have to send a photo of the expired ticket with the appeal. My partner was not given that option and could therefore no longer provide the photo of her ticket.

It was also the manner of how she was dealt with. The person who dealt with me was great and explained everything. The person who dealt with my partner was rude and when questioned why she hadn't been given the option to appeal was told that she cannot be expected to give all of the rules.

It just grates when you spend £6000+ a year on a service and are immediately treated as a guilty after one simple mistake.

What would be your grounds for an appeal? You've admitted to travelling without a valid ticket.

Consider this:

My £6000 season ticket expired yesterday and I don't need one for a month because I'm going on holiday however I need to make one more journey today. I know there's a chance my ticket won't be checked so I could get a free trip but if it is checked I'll say it's a mistake and pay the usual fare.

How would a ticket inspector (or someone dealing with appeals) differentiate between that situation and your mistake?

 

[najaB]

I was told by the person who dealt with me that if I wanted to appeal I would have to send a photo of the expired ticket with the appeal. My partner was not given that option and could therefore no longer provide the photo of her ticket.

As your ticket was expired you don't have valid grounds for an appeal. What you can do is write to Customer Services explaining the situation and they may make a goodwill gesture such as refunding part or all of the Penalty Fare.

 

[island]

I was told by the person who dealt with me that if I wanted to appeal I would have to send a photo of the expired ticket with the appeal. My partner was not given that option and could therefore no longer provide the photo of her ticket.

It was also the manner of how she was dealt with. The person who dealt with me was great and explained everything. The person who dealt with my partner was rude and when questioned why she hadn't been given the option to appeal was told that she cannot be expected to give all of the rules.

It just grates when you spend £6000+ a year on a service and are immediately treated as a guilty after one simple mistake.

Hate to break it to you, but you were guilty of a criminal offence under section 18 of the Railway Byelaws (no person shall enter any railway vehicle unless he has with him a valid ticket entitling him to travel).

You were dealt with more leniently by issuance of Penalty Fares rather than being reported for prosecution for the said offence.

We're going around in circles now so in summary:

• Appeal if you want to appeal, but your appeal is likely to be refused
• If any part of either Penalty Fare is not paid, ensure you pay it within the required time as appealing does not freeze the time allowed for payment and you will attract further surcharges. In the unlikely event of your appeal being allowed, all moneys paid will be refunded.
• You do not need to enclose a copy of the season ticket with your appeal (assuming you purchased it from Abellio Greater Anglia) as monthly and longer season tickets are recorded on a database.
• Instead of appealing consider writing to Abellio Greater Anglia customer services and asking for a gesture of goodwill perhaps in the form of rail travel vouchers recognising the honest mistake. If on reflection you decide that a member of staff was in fact being rude and not just telling you something you didn't want to hear, you could mention that in the letter too.
• Be aware that your details have been noted and it is less likely that any future offences committed by yourselves will result in only a Penalty Fare.

 

[Ross1999]

Not quite sure why the tone of this conversation has changed. If you read my original post I accepted right at the start that I was guilty of travelling without a valid ticket. I was just after some 'friendly advice' to see if I if it was worth appealing and also answered a question about the ripping up of the ticket.

Thanks for your help.

 

[philthetube]

I would however, complain about the way your wife was treated, regardless of circumstance, there is no excuse for rail staff to be rude to passengers, It is quite possible tu render a ticket unusable without destroying it or removing it from the bearer.

 

[cjmillsnun]

I would however, complain about the way your wife was treated, regardless of circumstance, there is no excuse for rail staff to be rude to passengers, It is quite possible tu render a ticket unusable without destroying it or removing it from the bearer.

Why? The ticket is railway property. If the RPI decides to confiscate it or destroy it, they have a right to do so. Also we only have the OP's side of the story. Someone being very assertive could be called rude. I appreciate there were different styles from each RPI, however it could be the case that neither was rude and it may be down to how his wife reacted. Until we have the RPI's side of the story (which we won't get because they won't post here) then we won't know.

 

[Haywain]

Why? The ticket is railway property. If the RPI decides to confiscate it or destroy it, they have a right to do so. Also we only have the OP's side of the story. Someone being very assertive could be called rude. I appreciate there were different styles from each RPI, however it could be the case that neither was rude and it may be down to how his wife reacted. Until we have the RPI's side of the story (which we won't get because they won't post here) then we won't know.

If the OPs wife feels she was badly treated, then she should complain, rather than the OP complaining. But as noted, we only have one side of one story, and the RPI dealing with the wife may have been with a more difficult customer.

 

[dviner]

Expiry is a binary thing - it's either valid or expired.

The only arguments I could come up with were:

• 
  the ticket expired due to a delayed journey (i.e. if the journey had completed on time, the ticket would have been valid, but it was delayed past the expiry date)

• the ticket was presented at the moment of expiry

The second scenario raised the question with me - at what time does a Season Ticket expire? They say "Valid until DD*MON*YY" but is that until 00:00 that day or 23:59? Or does it have a similar validity to a return - e.g. Valid until 31*JUL*15 means valid until 04:39 on 01*AUG*15?

 

[najaB]

The second scenario raised the question with me - at what time does a Season Ticket expire? They say "Valid until DD*MON*YY" but is that until 00:00 that day or 23:59? Or does it have a similar validity to a return - e.g. Valid until 31*JUL*15 means valid until 04:39 on 01*AUG*15?

Logically it would follow other tickets, so the latter interpretation makes most sense. Good question though.

 

[Greenback]

We need to keep threads in this section focused on the topic in hand. Discussions about alternative ways of handling ticket irregularities, policies and systems in general, and fairness, should take place elsewhere, either in their own thread in this section or in another part of the forum.

This thread is now closed. If the OP would like it reopened in order to provide an update, please contact forum staff.