'Only two bidders for SWT Franchise'

[fgwrich]

I have a feeling that Stagecoach will hold this franchise. Govia probably are the other bidder (just a guess), although Keolis, Go-Ahead and National Express may have had a go. I don't know who Trenitalia are, but once the franchise becomes more of a regional one, Arriva may be interested.

I wouldn't say Arriva are interested, I'd say they're very keen on our patch. A few of us here in north Hampshire had an email from Arriva asking our opinions for a future Arriva ran franchise. So I reckon it'll be a head to head with Stagecoach vs Arriva on this one. Stagecoach not so interested in it but keen to retain it, Arriva bidding for effectively a new Flagship franchise for them (apart from a northern revolution of course).

 

[CockneySparrow]

Passenger Transport magazine is reporting that Stagecoach is to face only one rival bidder for the SWT franchise, largely due to the increased number of franchises currently under offer but also due to the lack of clarity for future operations of the franchise not least because of Tfl's ambitions but also because of the potential for Crossrail 2. In addition there is the small matter of the large amount of work to be carried out in the Waterloo remodelling project and the uncertainty of the project to wire Basingstoke to Southampton.

Note also that in two weeks Tim Shoveller moves from SWT MD to head of Stagecoach UK Rail operations and will be putting together the bid for the new franchise (I understand).

Then there is the situation on the Isle of Wight

 

[theironroad]

arent we all getting a bit ahead of ourselves?

the dft public consultation hasnt finished yet, yet alone the ITT invitation to tender announcement.

with tfl wanting control of suburban lines, major waterloo construction work and a possible crossrail2, the whole thing is going to a basket case, but hey think of all the £ going to the lawyers,accountants, auditors, consultants etc for the bids.

 

[The Ham]

Thought the government was supposed to cancel franchising processes if only two bidders submitted as there wouldnt be enough competition.

In that respect there would be a problem. Stagecoach failed to agree on an extension. Either there would have to be renegotiation or DOR would have to step in.

I suspect it would be easier to let the bidding process continue.

Presumably the DfT could say we've got three bidders and have DOR put forward their proposal. If that were to happen it would make for an interesting outcome.

However, given the new passport system it could just be that the bidders are playing their cards close to their chest and so it is less obvious as to who is really interested.

 

[Goldfish62]

Alternatively the government are forced into a humiliating u-turn, extend the franchise until 2019 on a management contract and then re-let as two separate franchises with one going to LOROL?

On the face of it that sounds sensible and government could use rail devolution in 2019 as an excuse. Of course, no one would believe them.
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arent we all getting a bit ahead of ourselves?

the dft public consultation hasnt finished yet, yet alone the ITT invitation to tender announcement.

with tfl wanting control of suburban lines, major waterloo construction work and a possible crossrail2, the whole thing is going to a basket case, but hey think of all the £ going to the lawyers,accountants, auditors, consultants etc for the bids.

I still don't understand why people are referring to Crossrail 2. That's somewhat beyond the timeline of the next franchise.

 

[The Ham]

I still don't understand why people are referring to Crossrail 2. That's somewhat beyond the timeline of the next franchise.

Given that the services which will use the Crossrail 2 tunnels are those going over to TfL, I wouldn't have thought that it would be of great concern. Other than what implications there could be if construction were to start during the next franchise (although personally I think that if there is any construction it will have marginal, if that, impact).

The bigger concern is that TfL take all the paths released by Crossrail 2 and leave SWT's successor with no new paths.

 

[talltim]

I have a feeling that Stagecoach will hold this franchise. Govia probably are the other bidder (just a guess), although Keolis, Go-Ahead and National Express may have had a go. I don't know who Trenitalia are, but once the franchise becomes more of a regional one, Arriva may be interested.

Trenitalia are Italian state railways

 

[Pumbaa]

My money is that first are bidding on it from listening to the bidding world.

Listen a little closer...

 

[3141]

In all the speculation, it's worth remembering that in 2006 the bidders were Arriva, First, National Express, Sea Containers + MTR, and Stagecoach. NX withdrew, then Sea Containers withdrew, NX joined with MTR and came back in. Thus there were four bids.

 

[northwichcat]

Trenitalia are Italian state railways

Indeed. Translates literally as "Train Italy"

 

[backontrack]

Trenitalia are Italian state railways

Indeed. Translates literally as "Train Italy"

Thanks! They're quite controversial, though, by the looks of it...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trenitalia#Racism

 

[AlexNL]

Trenitalia is already a major transport operator in Germany, through their subsidiary Netinera. This used to be the German branch of Arriva, which was sold off when DB acquired Arriva.

 

[al.currie93]

Trenitalia are Italian state railways

Indeed. Translates literally as "Train Italy"

Technically they're the operating arm of Ferrovie dello Stato Italiane, which literally translates as 'Italian State Railways'.

Thanks! They're quite controversial, though, by the looks of it...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trenitalia#Racism

The four-class ticketing system and that advert were a bit controversial, at least they changed it though! My favourite other controversy is that, formally, it's a 'private' company, in line with EU guidelines in 1992 apparently. It makes me wonder if the EU asked them to sell it but didn't specify who to sell it to, so they sold it to themselves!

The train is a massive part of transport in Italy though, so if they do come to operate over here they'll hopefully know what they're doing. Half my family also come from Italy, so if our railways have to be run by foreign states I'd prefer it to be the Italians! :P

 

[HarleyDavidson]

And for those who don't behave I'm sure the Mafiosi will be able to correct it, with a trip to the concrete works.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Maybe they'll make the DfT a franchise bid they can't refuse....?

 

[mikeg]

First have confirmed to the stock market they are shortlisted for the new franchise.

From the London Stock Exchange website:

FIRSTGROUP PLC
(‘FirstGroup’ or ‘the Group’)

Statement re: SHORTLISTING FOR SOUTH WESTERN RAIL FRANCHISE COMPETITION



FirstGroup has been shortlisted for the South Western rail franchise competition by the Department for Transport (‘DfT’).

Commenting, Steve Montgomery, First Rail Managing Director said:

“We have extensive experience of running commuter, inter-urban, regional and long distance services – such as those that make up the South Western franchise – and a strong track record in delivering passenger growth, as well as capacity and infrastructure upgrades, on our Great Western Railway and First TransPennine Express networks. The South Western franchise plays a crucial role in keeping people moving and communities prospering across the region. We are developing an innovative and value for money proposal that will deliver better connectivity and significant improvements for customers. We look forward to the publication of further details by the DfT.”

Contacts at FirstGroup:

Faisal Tabbah, Group Investor Relations Manager

Stuart Butchers, Group Head of Media

Tel: +44 20 7725 3354

Contacts at Brunswick PR:

Michael Harrison / Andrew Porter, Tel: +44 20 7404 5959

Notes

FirstGroup plc (LSE: FGP.L; the 'Group') is the leading transport operator in the UK and North America. With approximately £6 billion in revenues and around 110,000 employees, we transported around 2.4 billion passengers last year. Each of our five divisions is a leader in its field: In North America, First Student is the largest provider of student transportation with a fleet of around 49,000 yellow school buses, First Transit is one of the largest providers of outsourced transit management and contracting services, while Greyhound is the only nationwide operator of scheduled intercity coach services. In the UK, FirstGroup is one of Britain's largest bus operators running a fleet of some 6,300 buses, and we are one of the country's most experienced passenger rail operators, carrying around 280 million passengers last year.

Our vision is to provide solutions for an increasingly congested world... keeping people moving and communities prospering.

Visit our website at www.firstgroupplc.com

 

[deltic]

DfT press release confirms First and Stagecoach are the two shortlisted bidders https://www.gov.uk/government/news/...ete-for-the-next-south-western-rail-franchise

 

[infobleep]

That's EU procurement laws for you. You're not allowed to bid for any public sector supply contract unless you can detail massive experience in successfully delivering previous similar contracts.

Which means GoVia have successfully delivered previous projects, despite what some might think about them.

 

[The Ham]

First have confirmed to the stock market they are shortlisted for the new franchise.

From the London Stock Exchange website:

May the best quote win.

Waits for first posts by people talking about First not being allowed to win due to then having a monopoly heading west out of London!

 

[plymothian]

Waits for first posts by people talking about First not being allowed to win due to then having a monopoly heading west out of London!

That's already happened in our local paper.
What, just like Virgin/Stagecoach have the monopoly heading to Scotland from London?

And someone else said they want a German company because their trains are always clean and on time.
What, just like Deutsche Bahn/Crosscountry?

 

[Bletchleyite]

May the best quote win.

Waits for first posts by people talking about First not being allowed to win due to then having a monopoly heading west out of London!

May Stagey win. I have no desire to have incompetent FirstGroup anywhere near anything I care about.
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That's already happened in our local paper.
What, just like Virgin/Stagecoach have the monopoly heading to Scotland from London?

The competitor is the car and air. The VTEC and VTWC thing is a wonderfully refreshing realisation of this.

 

[adrock1976]

It does seem rather strange in that First Group having both franchises (if their bid is successful), as I believe that the Great Western Railway and the London & South Western Railway were not really friendly rivals at all.

Might there now be an integration between the 2 networks regarding journey opportunities and a "simplification" of fares if First Group take over the L&SWR franchise?

 

[Robertj21a]

I just hope that Stagecoach win it - a far more professional organisation.

 

[Matt Taylor]

As an employee I want Stagecoach to retain the franchise, but First is the best of the remaining suspects so it's good news generally from my point of view.

 

[Surreyman]

As an employee I want Stagecoach to retain the franchise, but First is the best of the remaining suspects so it's good news generally from my point of view.

Recent Successful Franchise awards (Scotrail, C2C, Southern/Thameslink, Northern, TPE,) have all involved commitments to source new trains, (Watch this space for Anglia?), Southwest Trains has a mostly modern fleet, (the oldest Class 455s are to be re-equiped with new electric 'drives') leaving the diesel 158s & 159s as the oldest stock - built '89 - 93, so now around 25-27 years old.
New 5 car 707s are on order & will cascade 458s onto the Reading line to allow future 10 car operation, in turn cascading 450s to allow longer trains elsewhere.
A commitment to future 10 car suburban operation (after Waterloo rebuilding) with the 24 456s coupled up to the fleet of 91 455s, would, allowing for maintenance spares, mean @ 20+ 8 car 455 units continuing to run as 8 car only.
I note Stagecoach has recently called for future Stock proposals from train builders including for SWT, 3 sub lots of 'Electric' and 'Self powered' trains of between 60 & 200 units of various different carriage lengths.
So its looks as if S/C are thinking of a future replacement for the 158/9s
(Bi-Modes anyone?) as well as additional electric stock in various forms to run maximum length trains on all lines.

 

[northwichcat]

Recent Successful Franchise awards (Scotrail, C2C, Southern/Thameslink, Northern, TPE,) have all involved commitments to source new trains, (Watch this space for Anglia?)

In the case of Northern, Southern/Thameslink and Scotrail the ITTs specifically required obtaining new trains. For C2C additional carriages were required so bidders had a choice of new or cascaded, which I think is the same as it is for Anglia. TPE bidders were in a strange position they were initially told to bid on the basis of Manchester-York electrification being completed no later than 2020 but then told after they had started working on their bids that it would be December 2022 (almost the end of the franchise.)

For any franchise bidders have to get the right balance of cost and quality to be successful. Proposing an all-new fleet might score high for quality but would score poorly for cost unless the fleet is in need of replacement.
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An updated "Rail passenger franchise competition guide" has appeared on the DfT website today. I'm not sure what's changed in it but I guess it's likely to be related to the SWT franchise: https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/rail-passenger-franchise-competition-guide

 

[Surreyman]

For any franchise bidders have to get the right balance of cost and quality to be successful. Proposing an all-new fleet might score high for quality but would score poorly for quality unless the fleet is in need of replacement.

I am assuming that's a 'typo'

I get what you say in terms of cost & quality.
SWT is a 'big one' - I suggest that the bids are likely to be fierce and 'Go down to the wire' Cost and overall quality are as you say the deciders but ambitious proposals for new rolling stock could help swing it, who would have thought that the 'Minimum 120 new carriages' for Northern would become 281?
Ditto 44 new 5 car Electric/Bi-mode for TPE.

 

[northwichcat]

For any franchise bidders have to get the right balance of cost and quality to be successful. Proposing an all-new fleet might score high for quality but would score poorly for quality unless the fleet is in need of replacement.

I am assuming that's a 'typo'

Yes I corrected that.

who would have thought that the 'Minimum 120 new carriages' for Northern would become 281?

It was a minimum of 120 self-powered vehicles required and Arriva proposed 140, the ITT didn't include anything too specific for EMUs other than the 333s must remain until at least 2020. Although it's worth noting since the ITTs were written:
1. Scotrail threw a spanner in the works by deciding not to release 29 x 170s after all and deciding instead 16 x 170s would be released.
2. Porterbrook threw a spanner in the works by refusing to agree long term leases for the 323s. In the absence of suitable replacements for the 323s that opened up the possibly for a new EMU order.

 

[Agent_c]

That's already happened in our local paper.
What, just like Virgin/Stagecoach have the monopoly heading to Scotland from London?

They don't. You can get on the Serco operated sleeper, or take a National Express coach, or one of the many airlines that ply the route.

 

[The Ham]

An updated "Rail passenger franchise competition guide" has appeared on the DfT website today. I'm not sure what's changed in it but I guess it's likely to be related to the SWT franchise: https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/rail-passenger-franchise-competition-guide

According to the "Approval and Change History" of the Guide:

Changes to pre-qualification – introduction of Passport and Expression of Interest