Liverpool area to Birmingham via Chester

[Merseysider]

I wrote to London Midland in December as I was unable to get an itinerary on one ticket from Birkenhead Central/Liverpool - Birmingham via Chester and Wrexham, where I needed to stop off, and Shrewsbury. This is a permitted route in the RG [at time of email to LM] but all fares from LIV-BHM (and BKC-BHM) are routed via Crewe. I asked them to therefore change the routeing on the tickets to Any Permitted.

LM's response:

Hi Jake

Thank you for raising this routeing issue with us and highlighting an oversight with the data.

We have checked with Routeing Guide specialists at ATOC and it has been discovered that the routeing permissions via Shrewsbury/Wrexham/Chester are leftovers from when occasional temporary diversions, which are required due to engineering work, were permanently enshrined within the Routeing Guide. Due to advances in technology it is now possible to set extra permissions in the Routeing Guide using start and end dates, which ATOC will now action with regard to the Shrewsbury/Wrexham/Chester permissions.

Obviously permitted routes are determined by the fares so as the fares on this flow are all priced via Crewe, then that determines the permitted routes. As it states in National Rail Conditions of Carriage 13 (d) “the use of some tickets may be restricted to trains which take routes passing through, or avoiding particular location”

This amendment will now help ease customer confusion during “normal” train service running when tickets routed “Via Crewe” are used.

Kind regards

Retail Queries
London Midland

First of all, permitted routes are not determined by the fares; they're determined by the mapped routed available in the RG.

Secondly, instead of saying 'yes, it's a reasonable route, we'll do X, Y, Z' they've tried to blag their way out of it.

Whilst the number of passengers using this route may be very small, it's annoying that there isn't a fare for a journey I had a genuine need to make. Is there any recourse? It stinks of LM prioritising their commercial interests over passenger interests; no doubt they'd have to share revenue on these fares if you could use ME and ATW or VT via Chester.

 

[northwichcat]

Maybe write to ATW? They have Club 55 fares available for Birkenhead-Birmingham but no fares for younger people.

 

[dquebec]

I don't really think this is London Midland's problem.

Arriva Trains Wales could create a VIA SHREWSBURY fare, but where these exist, (e.g. Capenhurst), the VIA SHREWSBURY is more expensive than the ANY PERMITTED.

 

[lyndhurst25]

I've always been annoyed about this too but never got around to complaining. I'm sure that Birkenhead to Birmingham via Shrewsbury isn't a valid route purely due to engineering diversions having taken taken place in the past: probably more to do with the GWR and tradition. Prior to 1967 this was the way that everyone went, with there being numerous Birkenhead Woodside to Birmingham Snow Hill trains runnng daily. It's still a perfectly reasonable route to take and there should be an "any permitted" fare to allow it. I wonder when all the tickets were changed to route "via Crewe"?

 

[bb21]

Not all fares nominally valid that way are forbidden by the route restriction. Unfortunately we may see a comprehensive review of routing permissions for that area being conducted in the near future now as a result.

 

[Romilly]

There are fares for Birmingham to Upton via Shrewsbury, Wrexham & Shotton.

 

[Merseysider]

Not all fares nominally valid that way are forbidden by the route restriction. Unfortunately we may see a comprehensive review of routing permissions for that area being conducted in the near future now as a result.

And therein lies one of the problems with privatisation. All too often, the initial reaction is to prevent potential revenue abstraction by another TOC rather than what is best for passenger choice. This happens every couple of months and there's no point even thinking about Transport Focus any more because half of them are brainless orcs and the other half don't care :roll:

There are fares for Birmingham to Upton via Shrewsbury, Wrexham & Shotton.

Some good value fares I notice (£31 8A SVR with railcard, roughly the same as LM's fares). The ironic thing is, if I use this ticket in future, LM don't get a slice of the pie, whereas they would have on an Any Permitted ticket

lyndhurst25, we need you at our fares workshops! I've had a look and since NFM64 (privatisation), there has never been a walk up fare valid via Shrewsbury, but plenty of advances, which is rather odd.

Looks like writing to ATW is the way to go; I don't forsee them having any reasonable objections to creating such fares.

 

[dquebec]

Looks like writing to ATW is the way to go; I don't forsee them having any reasonable objections to creating such fares.

You'll be waiting a few months!
https://www.comeaboard.co.uk/recruiter/users/jobsearch.php?&id=1279

 

[kieron]

I don't really think this is London Midland's problem.

Arriva Trains Wales could create a VIA SHREWSBURY fare, but where these exist, (e.g. Capenhurst), the VIA SHREWSBURY is more expensive than the ANY PERMITTED.

It isn't more expensive, you know. "Any permitted" returns are £55.10 and £34.10 in standard, and "via Shrewsbury" ones £42 and £33.30. Don't be confused by the ticket names.

There are fares for Birmingham to Upton via Shrewsbury, Wrexham & Shotton.

Or via Shrewsbury, Wrexham, Chester and Liverpool, if that's more convenient.

 

[Merseysider]

It isn't more expensive, you know. "Any permitted" returns are £55.10 and £34.10 in standard, and "via Shrewsbury" ones £42 and £33.30. Don't be confused by the ticket names.

Yes, the £42 Off Peak return (any train) via Shrewsbury is effectively an Anytime return, and the £33.30 Super Off Peak return (any train after 9am) is effectively an Off Peak return.

Of course, no set of fares would be complete without ridiculously priced Advances from VTWC (£67 1ST AP versus £42.90 FOS) and XC (£41.60 STD AP versus £36.80 SOS) :roll:

 

[Andrew1395]

Permitted routes are determined by fares. If there is no fare between an origin and destination there is no permitted route. By extension if all the fares have a geographical restriction and no other fare exists, then that determines the permitted routes. I am sure it says that in the routeing guide. Certainly that's how it was taught 20 years ago.

Of course you can still use two tickets in combination to take the routes you prefer. That after all is the essence of splitting.

 

[bb21]

I think the "fares determine routeing" and "permitted routes are not determined by fares" schools of thought spoken about in this thread are actually talking about two very different things, and not a simple negation of each other. Both are technically correct, and have a certain amount of overlap between them.

 

[Andrew1395]

The point about engineering diversions I am sure has something yo do with the alternative services put in place during the total closure and rebuilding of the lines at Crewe station in 1984/5 time. That would tie in with the lack of an any permitted price, and a routed only flow. I doubt the commercial office at Stanier House would have thought travel via the usurped GW route was at all appropriate between Birmingham and Liverpool. Snow Hill, Wolverhampton low level - I don't think so!

 

[sheff1]

Permitted routes are determined by fares.

It doesn't matter if the 'Any Permitted' fare from A to B is £1, £10 or £100. The permitted routes remain the same and are defined in the Routeing Guide.

Equally, if all tickets from A to B are routed 'Via Crewe' it doesn't matter what the actual fare is - you can only travel via routes which go through Crewe.

 

[Solent&Wessex]

My 1996 Routeing Guide shows permitted routes from Birmingham to Liverpool via Wolverhampton, Shrewsbury and Chester on then Map MW.

I can't however see whether there were any "Any Permitted" fares available at that time, or whether they were all marked "Crewe".

 

[bb21]

My 1996 Routeing Guide shows permitted routes from Birmingham to Liverpool via Wolverhampton, Shrewsbury and Chester on then Map MW.

I can't however see whether there were any "Any Permitted" fares available at that time, or whether they were all marked "Crewe".

www.farehistory.info shows that fares between NLC 0435 and NLC 0418 were either routed Crewe, or AP Hartford.

 

[Andrew1395]

So the map allows a route to be traced, but no fare existed. IMHO that means that is not a permitted route as you could not buy a ticket to travel that way, I suppose you could go via Wolverhampton, Wem and Crewe.

 

[Merseysider]

So the map allows a route to be traced, but no fare existed. IMHO that means that is not a permitted route as you could not buy a ticket to travel that way, I suppose you could go via Wolverhampton, Wem and Crewe.

Aye, and I know by splitting tickets the journey can be made. It's just rather annoying and time consuming checking three or four split points to make sure the total isn't more than it needs to be. The route in and of itself isn't geographically remarkable but I wouldn't be surprised if it's declared 'circuitous', as the wieners at ATOC put it, so I hope it's available in the future.

 

[Starmill]

Given they've described Marylebone to Oxford via High Wycombe as 'circuitous' before, I don't think they're expecting ashamed of looking foolish in their use of such terms.

 

[gray1404]

I believe on the current Liverpool to Birmingham (via Crewe) fares travel on Merseyrail between Liverpool and Chester plus travel on either Arriva Trains Wales or Virgin Trains between Chester and Crewe is permitted. I've been able to get journeys for this on National Rail shown by entering Chester as a via point. By the same token a journey via Wigan by entering that as a via point.

What is annoying on this route /flow is that there are no"day" return fares offered.

 

[Merseysider]

I believe on the current Liverpool to Birmingham (via Crewe) fares travel on Merseyrail between Liverpool and Chester plus travel on either Arriva Trains Wales or Virgin Trains between Chester and Crewe is permitted. I've been able to get journeys for this on National Rail shown by entering Chester as a via point. By the same token a journey via Wigan by entering that as a via point.

What is annoying on this route /flow is that there are no"day" return fares offered.

Aye, that first one be a permitted route dating back decades. From Birko it's sometimes the fastest way to go.

I wouldn't be surprised if LIV-WGN-BHM was allowed during engineering work, but would be if it was normal! I can't seem to replicate your results at this time. Reminds me of when I went Liverpool-Manc on VT last year during the diverts, all on a dirt cheap Liverpool-Crewe ticket

 

[gray1404]

Are you unable able to reproduce my via Chester or via Wigan results? I have to admit I made the via Wigan journey some months ago now. I am wondering if there have been any changes to the routing guide since?