Leeds Station concourse and platform improvements

[quantinghome]

My view on reading this report when it was first issued was that it was a political report designed to give the local government sponsors what they want-scatter the proposed stations around, a little bit for everybody, and don't spend it all in Leeds.

Or at least, nowhere in the Leeds urban area.

I found the report disappointing as well. However, I suspect the report is answering the remit 'find locations for new stations where the construction is simple and can be fitted in with minor changes to the existing timetable', in which case it does what's asked of it. I'd like to see a report which looks at what a proper metro system might be like. I guess we'd all like to see a 15 minute interval service with stations every 1-2 miles in built-up areas, but with the current rail network having to balance local, regional and intercity traffic, it's just not possible.

Taking White Rose as an example, I guess the closest analogy would be Meadowhall. This has 2m pax per annum, served by 9 services an hour. Basically all local services in South Yorkshire stop there, so it has good direct connections. White Rose is more limited by the line serving it - unless you're coming from the direction of Huddersfield or the Calder Valley, you would need to change in Leeds. To make the change work, you'd need a frequent interval local service (say 4tph). Any less and you have potential long connections in Leeds, but the local service can't be increased with TPE using the line.

We should be pushing strongly for NPR to completely separate long distance trains from the local tracks. Then we can get a decent local metro network.

 

[Grumpy]

The main question, for me, is whether a new station 3/4 mile from an existing one would create new journeys. I'd say not. It might be more convenient for the east end of the city centre, not that there's much there, but it isn't a long walk to city station. I don't see the benefit of it, especially when people are bitching about this new entrance being a waste of cash because all it does a save people a relatively short walk.

£20m is chickenfeed compared to the work required to build a new station near the bus station. I'd rather see that spent on areas that aren't served by rail at all, or are badly served, before spending £150m+ on a new station a 15 minute walk from an existing one.

.

I don't quite see the logic that dismisses the new journey generation and other benefits of this proposal, but in earlier posts supports the southern entrance which would seem to offer considerably less.

I cant imagine where the £150m estimate comes from. Why should it cost more than Elland? Indeed it would seem to need less work than Apperley bridge (given the extensive earthworks required there) to say nothing of the work required for the southern entrance.
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Or at least, nowhere in the Leeds urban area.

I White Rose is more limited by the line serving it - unless you're coming from the direction of Huddersfield or the Calder Valley, you would need to change in Leeds. To make the change work, you'd need a frequent interval local service (say 4tph). Any less and you have potential long connections in Leeds, but the local service can't be increased with TPE using the line.

.

I agree with all your comments. However I would stop some of the TPE services there. Not only to give the connections you identify but also to develop it as a Parkway type station for West Leeds. All the arguments for doing this for on the East of Leeds (Thorpe Park or wherever) also apply at White Rose-easy access to the ring road and other roads to south and west Leeds, together with the bus services to the shopping centre offering potential bus/rail interchange.

 

[Iskra]

Or at least, nowhere in the Leeds urban area.

I found the report disappointing as well. However, I suspect the report is answering the remit 'find locations for new stations where the construction is simple and can be fitted in with minor changes to the existing timetable', in which case it does what's asked of it. I'd like to see a report which looks at what a proper metro system might be like. I guess we'd all like to see a 15 minute interval service with stations every 1-2 miles in built-up areas, but with the current rail network having to balance local, regional and intercity traffic, it's just not possible.

Taking White Rose as an example, I guess the closest analogy would be Meadowhall. This has 2m pax per annum, served by 9 services an hour. Basically all local services in South Yorkshire stop there, so it has good direct connections. White Rose is more limited by the line serving it - unless you're coming from the direction of Huddersfield or the Calder Valley, you would need to change in Leeds. To make the change work, you'd need a frequent interval local service (say 4tph). Any less and you have potential long connections in Leeds, but the local service can't be increased with TPE using the line.

We should be pushing strongly for NPR to completely separate long distance trains from the local tracks. Then we can get a decent local metro network.

Wouldn't the White rose be better served from the less-congested ECML spur? It could then be served by the Leeds-Doncaster EMU's with better acceleration and top speed for staying out of the way of fast services. I think 4tph would be overkill, 2ph being better.

 

[L+Y]

No. Only built on in three places. Still room for off line deviations so don't dismiss on this point alone. The campaign and support for this is steadily building.

I work in the area and know it reasonably well. The trackbed is thoroughly built on in the village centres of Thorner, Bardsey and Collingham. Thorner you could perhaps get through with minimal demolition of homes, but Bardsey and Collingham would both require obliteration of dozens of houses, and I can't see how you'd get around either village easily without some serious engineering work. It just doesn't, to me, seem at all feasible.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Wouldn't the White rose be better served from the less-congested ECML spur? It could then be served by the Leeds-Doncaster EMU's with better acceleration and top speed for staying out of the way of fast services. I think 4tph would be overkill, 2ph being better.

A station there would be more convenient from an operational point of view, but further from the shopping centre (though it would have the advantage of serving Beeston's residential population). You'd need some sort of covered footbridge (or a shuttle bus) to link in really.

 

[Iskra]

A station there would be more convenient from an operational point of view, but further from the shopping centre (though it would have the advantage of serving Beeston's residential population). You'd need some sort of covered footbridge (or a shuttle bus) to link in really.

I think it's a lot more realistic than a new station on the TPE core. The service would be a lot more resilient too. I think a covered footbridge would be fine. I'm fairly sure it's further to walk from Meadowhall station to the furthest parts of Meadowhall shopping centre than what I'm proposing at the white rose.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

I think it's a lot more realistic than a new station on the TPE core. The service would be a lot more resilient too. I think a covered footbridge would be fine. I'm fairly sure it's further to walk from Meadowhall station to the furthest parts of Meadowhall shopping centre than what I'm proposing at the white rose.

I'm in agreement that a new station on the Huddersfield line is a non-starter, given the current plans for how paths are to be allocated along that route and also the close proximity of existing stations on that line. Now if Leeds had gained a tram line into Morley town centre there'd be a case for closing Morley (Low) station which would make it more likely but that's all very pie-in-the-sky.

And you're right about the distance from a Beeston/White Rose station being no worse than Meadowhall, particularly if coming from the Barnsley line. However comparing the White Rose to Meadowhall is something of a fool's errand in terms of how much traffic those destinations generate for the railway. As I currently don't drive, I haven't been to the White Rose in ages even though there's a bus there from Batley because Leeds itself is both better and easier to get to. I have however taken the trouble of a near three hour bounce on pacers to get to Meadowhall!

 

[Iskra]

I'm in agreement that a new station on the Huddersfield line is a non-starter, given the current plans for how paths are to be allocated along that route and also the close proximity of existing stations on that line. Now if Leeds had gained a tram line into Morley town centre there'd be a case for closing Morley (Low) station which would make it more likely but that's all very pie-in-the-sky.

And you're right about the distance from a Beeston/White Rose station being no worse than Meadowhall, particularly if coming from the Barnsley line. However comparing the White Rose to Meadowhall is something of a fool's errand in terms of how much traffic those destinations generate for the railway. As I currently don't drive, I haven't been to the White Rose in ages even though there's a bus there from Batley because Leeds itself is both better and easier to get to. I have however taken the trouble of a near three hour bounce on pacers to get to Meadowhall!

I agree on all counts.

Leeds city centre is a far superior shopping destination, even more so now there is Trinity. Whereas, Sheffield is the opposite, Meadowhall out competes it. The only advantages of the White Rose are parking and you can combine your trip to the supermarket easily with a small bit of shopping. Haha, I presume you mean the Penistone line? Is it not faster and less bouncy via Wakey?

 

[NorthernSpirit]

Wouldn't the White Rose be better served from the less-congested ECML spur? It could then be served by the Leeds-Doncaster EMU's with better acceleration and top speed for staying out of the way of fast services. I think 4tph would be overkill, 2ph being better.

Its a fair distance between the Wakefield Line and White Rose, must be the best part of at least 3/4 mile bwtween them unless a branch was built so that there is a shuttle service running betwen Leeds and White Rose.

I'd probably say a tram service would be better, as in the terminus could be located at Tingley near to where the old Real Radio studios were and the line could then run into Leeds city centre before heading up to Otley (another town whose line has been built on).

 

[HowardGWR]

Its a fair distance between the Wakefield Line and White Rose, must be the best part of at least 3/4 mile bwtween them unless a branch was built so that there is a shuttle service running betwen Leeds and White Rose.

I've just measured it using GE. It's no more than 350 mtrs on GE as the crow flies. So a footbridge/travolator from a station where the Dewsbury Road is crossed by the Wakefield line would do the job but that station would not be central to Beeston, but then there is no place on the line that is.

 

[Iskra]

I've just measured it using GE. It's no more than 350 mtrs on GE as the crow flies. So a footbridge/travolator from a station where the Dewsbury Road is crossed by the Wakefield line would do the job but that station would not be central to Beeston, but then there is no place on the line that is.

I thought as much. It does look further than that to be fair, but a map shows it to be surprisingly close.

 

[deltic08]

I work in the area and know it reasonably well. The trackbed is thoroughly built on in the village centres of Thorner, Bardsey and Collingham. Thorner you could perhaps get through with minimal demolition of homes, but Bardsey and Collingham would both require obliteration of dozens of houses, and I can't see how you'd get around either village easily without some serious engineering work. It just doesn't, to me, seem at all feasible.

I know the area very well too. Please read my post. I said that the route was developed in three places. You have named them correctly here. I also said there was room for off line deviation to avoid this development. Thorner and Collingham stations would be within walking distance of respective villages on one route, but Bardsey would not have a station nearby without demolition of approximately 14 dwellings. It depends how badly Bardsey wants a station.

Route optioneering has been done already by professionals and there are several routes available to allow Wetherby to Leeds in 17 minutes non stop with loss of only one or two buildings.

Building a railway is serious engineering. If Transport Scotland/Network Rail can spend £200m on doubling two miles of single track why not £150m in the North reconnecting Wetherby and Cross Gates where 10,000 houses are planned along the route in the next ten years.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

I agree on all counts.

Leeds city centre is a far superior shopping destination, even more so now there is Trinity. Whereas, Sheffield is the opposite, Meadowhall out competes it. The only advantages of the White Rose are parking and you can combine your trip to the supermarket easily with a small bit of shopping. Haha, I presume you mean the Penistone line? Is it not faster and less bouncy via Wakey?

People travel from the likes of Birmingham and Hull to Meadowhall, I'd be surprised if many people travel from outside the West Riding specifically to go to White Rose, even by car which is really the only option if you're further away than Dewsbury.

I did mean the Penistone line, going via Wakey would be less bouncy once I'd got to Westgate or Kirkgate but would require a bus first, and not a particularly quick one either. I have a 2-5 Mcard so can't go via Leeds without a Cottingley to Outwood or Woodlesford ticket. Pacers are awful but still better than an actual bus, just! (unless it's a Merseytravel one, of course!).

 

[NorthernSpirit]

Had a look myself and I will admit that it does look further.

If a station was built at White Rose then the only feesable location would be between Ring Road / Thurlmere Gardens and Dewsbury Road overbridges so plenty of space. No idea if a travelator would fit.

 

[deltic08]

Its a fair distance between the Wakefield Line and White Rose, must be the best part of at least 3/4 mile bwtween them unless a branch was built so that there is a shuttle service running betwen Leeds and White Rose.

I'd probably say a tram service would be better, as in the terminus could be located at Tingley near to where the old Real Radio studios were and the line could then run into Leeds city centre before heading up to Otley (another town whose line has been built on).

Menston-Otley heavy rail is still an option rather than road running trams all the way from Leeds to Otley with many stops. This only duplicates buses on the same road.

 

[Grumpy]

Wouldn't the White rose be better served from the less-congested ECML spur? It could then be served by the Leeds-Doncaster EMU's with better acceleration and top speed for staying out of the way of fast services. I think 4tph would be overkill, 2ph being better.

If, by the ECML "spur", you mean the Wakefield line via Outwood then I cant understand the reference to this being less congested. It carries as many trains in the peak as the Morley line (and even more when the Nottinghams are transferred).

 

[Iskra]

If, by the ECML "spur", you mean the Wakefield line via Outwood then I cant understand the reference to this being less congested. It carries as many trains in the peak as the Morley line (and even more when the Nottinghams are transferred).

It's plainly obvious what I meant. There is only one spur off the ECML in the Yorkshire area, near the White Rose and served by Leeds-Doncaster EMU's... :roll:

Services passing through Cottingley and Outwood this morning:

0700-0800:
Cottingley 13
Outwood 11

0800-0900:
Cottingley 16
Outwood 13

0900-1000:
Cottingley 15
Outwood 11

So the Cottingley route is more congested as well as having stations closer together and double the number of slow 75mph max local trains.

And the TPE route is due to gain services too you know...

 

[HowardGWR]

London Transport would regard those frequencies as 'a lightly used line'.

 

[Iskra]

London Transport would regard those frequencies as 'a lightly used line'.

I agree to be honest, but then London probably has a lot better signalling to deal with the extra services as well as EMU's that can handle stop/start a lot more efficiently rather than the mixed bag we have up here. And a lot of London main lines are 4 tracks, which makes things a lot easier...

 

[Grumpy]

It's plainly obvious what I meant. There is only one spur off the ECML in the Yorkshire area, near the White Rose and served by Leeds-Doncaster EMU's... :roll:

Services passing through Cottingley and Outwood this morning:

0700-0800:
Cottingley 13
Outwood 11

0800-0900:
Cottingley 16
Outwood 13

0900-1000:
Cottingley 15
Outwood 11

So the Cottingley route is more congested as well as having stations closer together and double the number of slow 75mph max local trains.

And the TPE route is due to gain services too you know...

I took the peak to be approx. 0800-0900 towards Leeds. In that period there are 7 services scheduled to pass Morley, and 7 passing Outwood (from 0806 to 0904 in this case). The 16 you quote for Cottingley is inflated by including 2 services running late.

I believe the first potential overtaking point on the Outwood route is Fitzwilliam, which means fast and slows have to share tracks for much further than the Cottingley route, making scheduling more difficult.

 

[Iskra]

I took the peak to be approx. 0800-0900 towards Leeds. In that period there are 7 services scheduled to pass Morley, and 7 passing Outwood (from 0806 to 0904 in this case). The 16 you quote for Cottingley is inflated by including 2 services running late.

I believe the first potential overtaking point on the Outwood route is Fitzwilliam, which means fast and slows have to share tracks for much further than the Cottingley route, making scheduling more difficult.

It is much of a muchness, but the resilience of the TPE core is dire compared to the Outwood line.

There is obviously some spare capacity on the Outwood line as evidenced by the early morning EMT/XC services, ECS moves, and the extra 0713 (Wakefield) West Riding Limited VTEC service and as you point out it is due to gain the Northern Connect services as well as a 3rd Leeds-London train per hour. Plus there is also the option of sending Leeds-London services via Hambleton junction as one service currently is pathed.

 

[yorksrob]

Waiting on the footbridge today in the evening, I notice that all of the gates to the Southern entrance are showing a big red cross and "please use another gate".

If they can't staff the gate, it should be left open.

 

[JaJaWa]

Waiting on the footbridge today in the evening, I notice that all of the gates to the Southern entrance are showing a big red cross and "please use another gate".

If they can't staff the gate, it should be left open.

Had it already closed for the night?

 

[yorksrob]

Had it already closed for the night?

Unfortunately there wasn't anyone in the vicinity to ask.

 

[Tetchytyke]

I don't quite see the logic that dismisses the new journey generation and other benefits of this proposal, but in earlier posts supports the southern entrance which would seem to offer considerably less.

I cant imagine where the £150m estimate comes from. Why should it cost more than Elland? Indeed it would seem to need less work than Apperley bridge (given the extensive earthworks required there) to say nothing of the work required for the southern entrance.

I was talking about the cost of a new station by the bus station, which would require very significant earthworks and viaduct rebuilding work, not the cost of a station at White Rose. White Rose should be relatively inexpensive to build; the issue would be finding enough paths to get trains to call there.

 

[Starmill]

... You'd need some sort of covered footbridge ...

You mean, like at Meadowhall? And indeed, Metrocentre!

 

[61653 HTAFC]

You mean, like at Meadowhall? And indeed, Metrocentre!

Yes, that's exactly what I mean, which is why I mentioned it! However I'd be surprised if White Rose generates the footfall to justify the expense of such a link, which would have to cross the White Rose car parks and the A650 Dewsbury Road.

Going back to Leeds station itself, I enquired at the Starbucks on the bridge earlier about the loss of their seating area on the South (or West?) side of the bridge, apparently Network Rail removed it without notice when the Southern exit opened as they were concerned about congestion. However very few people seem to choose to walk on that side of the bridge even if they've just used the new entrance. There's now a distinct shortage of seating anywhere on the paid side of the gates, which doesn't make waiting at the station particularly pleasant.

 

[Starmill]

which doesn't make waiting at the station particularly pleasant.

To be honest, this is quite true regardless of which side of the gates one is on - and it doesn't have much to do with seating.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

To be honest, this is quite true regardless of which side of the gates one is on - and it doesn't have much to do with seating.

True I suppose... But the only way to solve that would be to move the whole station 16 miles to the South-West (to the centre of the Universe!) and drop an A-bomb on the rest of the city centre. Don't think it'd score well on the BCR either though!

 

[HowardGWR]

True I suppose... But the only way to solve that would be to move the whole station 16 miles to the South-West (to the centre of the Universe!) and drop an A-bomb on the rest of the city centre. Don't think it'd score well on the BCR either though!

A '!6 miles away A bomb' would not do much for you in Batley either!