Ordsall Chord

[keith1879]

OR, go for the cheapest even if it is not the best option long term. Too much of this is happening in this country now and we will live to regret it in years to come.

So given that the requirement is to provide an increase in the number of services operating directly between Manchester Airport and Yorkshire destinations without adversely affecting traffic into and out of Piccadilly ....what IS the best option long term?

 

[Nym]

Give up on this requirement...

Run what's optimal on the infrastructure, rather than spending £000,000,000s to please some people who continue to have an obsession with direct trains!

Back in the real world, the cord is probably the best thing to do with what remnants of Victoria we have, but spending more money on things like grade separation to remove one or two junction conflicts (on both sides of Victoria) now rather than later would afford us the best cost benefit in the long run, especially if said additional grade separation could be carried out before a massive estate is built next to the building site.

 

[HowardGWR]

So given that the requirement is to provide an increase in the number of services operating directly between Manchester Airport and Yorkshire destinations without adversely affecting traffic into and out of Piccadilly ....what IS the best option long term?

This was 'the requirement'? What proportion pax on trains through from Victoria to Piccadilly are airport bound? I would be surprised that they ever would exceed 10% of pax.

 

[keith1879]

This was 'the requirement'? What proportion pax on trains through from Victoria to Piccadilly are airport bound? I would be surprised that they ever would exceed 10% of pax.

Happy to be corrected - what was the requirement? (Sorry - think you misunderstand. The requirement is to get Airport trains direct to Yorkshire - they don't have to go through Victoria).

 

[MarkyT]

Happy to be corrected - what was the requirement? (Sorry - think you misunderstand. The requirement is to get Airport trains direct to Yorkshire - they don't have to go through Victoria).

Yes but by going via Victoria and Ordsall chord these trains will provide a range of city centre destinations and connections from Yorkshire, including Victoria and Piccadilly as well as the airport. This means with the likely greater total demand on those trains a more frequent and thus more attractive overall service level can be sustained over the entire axis.

 

[Altfish]

..... people who continue to have an obsession with direct trains!

When you are going on holiday you have suitcases, often large and heavy. Arriving at Victoria, over the stairs and onto the tram; then up the escalators and along the platforms at Piccadilly is not easy. It puts people off.

Direct trains from the likes of Rochdale, Halifax and Bradford will be a welcome bonus to many people.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

When you are going on holiday you have suitcases, often large and heavy. Arriving at Victoria, over the stairs and onto the tram; then up the escalators and along the platforms at Piccadilly is not easy. It puts people off.

Passengers with heavy luggage are not advised to use either stairs or escalators when lift facilities are provided.

I like the preventative barriers that have been installed in front of the escalator from platform level to booking office floor level at Manchester Airport station with associated clear notices that passengers with large luggage should NOT use the escalators and to use the nearby lift.

 

[Nym]

When you are going on holiday you have suitcases, often large and heavy. Arriving at Victoria, over the stairs and onto the tram; then up the escalators and along the platforms at Piccadilly is not easy. It puts people off.

Direct trains from the likes of Rochdale, Halifax and Bradford will be a welcome bonus to many people.

Or they can change at Salford Crescent cross patform from Rochdale.

Halifax and Bradford you can change at Huddersfeild and Piccadilly...

Or better yet, stop taking your entire wardrobe on holiday... Last time I packed for a week away it all fit in two backpacks still with loads of space, between two of us, including all the physio and medical stuff we need.

 

[Philip Phlopp]

Or they can change at Salford Crescent cross patform from Rochdale.

Halifax and Bradford you can change at Huddersfeild and Piccadilly...

Or better yet, stop taking your entire wardrobe on holiday... Last time I packed for a week away it all fit in two backpacks still with loads of space, between two of us, including all the physio and medical stuff we need.

22 million passengers, even with small amounts of luggage, would cause utter chaos at Salford Crescent if they're forced to change at Salford.

The argument "change at x or y" is once again all very much like the days of BR "we'll take you where it's convenient for us to take you" and not "we'll take you exactly to where you want to go" which is what a modern, cohesive public transport system must do.

It's further worth remembering that there are 19,000 staff employed on site, they're on site day in, day out. If they have better connections and easier travel, it'll get them out of their cars and on to public transport, and they're the people more likely to be one person to a car.

The workers are also the people with relatively inflexible schedules - have to be at work at a specific time, have to be home to get the kids from school, that sort of thing, they're the people who can't afford to be wasting time changing from one train to another, being hit by knock on delays, missing connections and ending up an hour late at destination because of a 5 minute delay en route.

If you get just a few hundred staff out of their cars and onto the train, it's a massive potential benefit to the surrounding road network, to buses and coaches, and to the railway itself.

 

[PR1Berske]

I have to agree that "they could just change at Salford" is not an alternative with much credence given the make-do-and-mend processes the industry has bundled together just to make Crescent usable for the current mass of passengers and services.

Convincing potential passengers to take the train is much easier if you can show them direct trains taking them from A to B without needing to go to other letters of the alphabet along the way.

 

[edwin_m]

Halifax and Bradford you can change at Huddersfeild and Piccadilly...

Only if you take the hourly round-the-houses slow service via Brighouse. Running the fast trains through to the Airport ought to make a big difference for these two places whose rail service isn't exactly wonderful at present.

 

[TorqueOfTheDevil]

Last time I packed for a week away it all fit in two backpacks still with loads of space, between two of us, including all the physio and medical stuff we need.

Good for you. Most of us however aren't ageing naturists. And you seem to forget that the point of a railway is to serve its customers' various needs (which, not unreasonably for those going to an international airport, include luggage) rather than to please enthusiasts.

I don't see National Express scrapping coaches in favour of minibuses and telling their passengers to travel light. Even though the minibuses would bring better acceleration and cost less.

The argument "change at x or y" is once again all very much like the days of BR "we'll take you where it's convenient for us to take you" and not "we'll take you exactly to where you want to go" which is what a modern, cohesive public transport system must do.

Hear hear!

 

[Old Yard Dog]

Unlike TfL, those tightfisted people at TfGM won't even let passengers to/from Bradford and Halifax use the tram for free when they have to change from Piccadilly to Victoria or v.v. The Ordsall chord will be a godsend. Its not just about getting to the Airport, its about getting to loads of other places south and west of Manchester.

 

[keith1879]

I'll answer my own question. If the requirement is to enable more direct trains to run from the airport to Yorkshire without interfering with the throat at Piccadilly (and incidentally - allowing the trains to stop in Manchester somewhere) the baseline option is the Ordsall chord as under development.
Mark Whitby's option is operationally inferior because it is slightly longer and has a tighter curve near two flat crossings so it will have a longer journey time and cause more disruption as well as costing £20 million extra (his figure). This idea is second-best to the one being built.

TBirdFrank's idea of reinstating the Blind Lane curve and other improvements at Piccadilly doesn't meet any part of the requirement.

The best operational solution I can think of is a slimmed down Picc-Vic taking a direct route between the two stations with no intermediate stops. Much faster journey time, less flat crossings. No idea of the cost but somewhere near astronomical I should imagine. It would take longer to deliver as well.
So are we ready to divert hundreds of millions of pounds from other projects for a better quality of jam the day after tomorrow?
Ordsall Chord for me any day.

 

[edwin_m]

The best operational solution I can think of is a slimmed down Picc-Vic taking a direct route between the two stations with no intermediate stops. Much faster journey time, less flat crossings. No idea of the cost but somewhere near astronomical I should imagine. It would take longer to deliver as well.
So are we ready to divert hundreds of millions of pounds from other projects for a better quality of jam the day after tomorrow?
Ordsall Chord for me any day.

Picc-Vic wouldn't be allowed to take diesels, so to add to the cost the Calder Valley line would need elecrifying as well.

 

[Nym]

Why would it not be able to take diesels?

It would be around the same length if not shorter than Summit Tunnel...

 

[futureA]

The Summit tunnel has regularly spaced ventilation shafts to dissipate the fumes. Something which might be difficult to provide in Manchester city centre.

 

[edwin_m]

Why would it not be able to take diesels?

It would be around the same length if not shorter than Summit Tunnel...

It would need stations at both Victoria and Piccadilly for access to the city centre and interchange with other services. Due to the lack of space on the surface at both places these stations would almost certainly be in buried tubes, which don't allow diesels in any place that I can think of.

 

[deltic08]

When you are going on holiday you have suitcases, often large and heavy. Arriving at Victoria, over the stairs and onto the tram; then up the escalators and along the platforms at Piccadilly is not easy. It puts people off.

Direct trains from the likes of Rochdale, Halifax and Bradford will be a welcome bonus to many people.

My nearest railhead is ten miles away. Using public transport to reach Manchester Airport would require a taxi to the bus station, bus to Harrogate, train to Leeds and another train to MIA and that is assuming flight times are sensible.

My wife flew to Australia last year. I couldn't go at the last minute due to a heart attack. Not being allowed to drive, I couldn't take her to the airport and collect her. She chose to drive and leave her car at the airport for a month as this was the most convenient for her. A new £85m chord would not have made any difference to her. She would still have gone by car.

In all the years it has been possible to travel to MIA by train, we have never used it once and not likely to in future.

If very few, 10% quoted, are airport passengers, does that justify a chord at all and through trains. Passengers from east of Piccadilly can still use trains to Piccadilly, even from the Rochdale/Calder Valley line if as suggested reinstatement of the east link is carried out and change into airport trains there. Surely arrangements could be made for cross platform changes into two trains an hour onward to the airport? Are two airport trains an hour going to block up Piccadilly station throat?

When I tried out the new 350/4s from Manchester to Carlisle on a Club 55 offer from Garforth, there was no convenient through train from the East for me and my wheelchair bound travelling companion. There wasn't even a lift at Manchester on the platform we arrived on from Garforth and no wheelchair friendly access at Garforth, the nearest railhead for him with parking for me for TPEx, on the return. I had to carry him over the footbridge and then return for his wheelchair. That did not deter us from travelling.

I am so glad we did it though. He hadn't been out for months and hadn't been on a train for years due to ill health. He died only nine days after going, with cardiac failure from his diabetes, and did nothing else but talk to his wife about the day out to Carlisle for all that week.

We are not just talking £85m but also quadrifying from Deansgate to Piccadilly to allow an increase in Vic-Picc traffic. What is the whole package costing? £300m? £400m? What is the BCR for all this? I suspect this is more of an Osborne boosting proposal than a passenger convenience!!!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

So given that the requirement is to provide an increase in the number of services operating directly between Manchester Airport and Yorkshire destinations without adversely affecting traffic into and out of Piccadilly ....what IS the best option long term?

Considering Leeds/Bradford is rapidly expanding with International flights, a rail connection from Horsforth is proposed and former RAF Church Fenton right next to the York-Leeds line has just been bought to create a new Yorkshire airport, traffic from Yorkshire to MIA may even decline long term.

 

[TBirdFrank]

I am sorry but only a complete illiterate could describe the planning and consultation process leading up to this decision as satisfactory.

I went to the joke that was the choice of options. The choice had been made.

When I protested that the process was an insult to the public I was quickly removed from the fray for a private discussion where the consultation manager commented that I obviously had specialist knowledge and would I therefore send in a written submission - all fine and dandy - but the answers to the questions available to the public were of the yes no interlude type that could be computer read. Specialist input was not wanted or responded to.

At the end of the day MOSI - the Science Museum was bought off for a measly £3m to keep their traps shut and under the hand of a director brought in to do the job. Her predecessor Steve Davies made his feelings about the probity of the decision crystal clear earlier this month - but that din't get reported either.

Finally as to the disgraceful and contemptible suggestion that public participation in planning should be outlawed by one means or another - may I remind the politically naive that along that road lies one party government and loss of freedom.

Millions fought and died for that last century so who is anyone born fifty years later to betray that?

 

[yoyothehobo]

I agree with you Deltic on the early morning flight issue. Anyone travelling for thr morning peak travelling any distance just wouldnt use the train. If you need 3 hours train plus 2 hours ahead of your flight it gets ridiculous for an early morning flight.

I cant however see MAN Airport diminshing in its ability to attract customers from all over the North. manchester is thr only place offering any long distance flights and its infrastructure massively outmatches anything at Leeds which also has little space to expand effectively and is desperately in need of a reliable public transport link (spur from Horsforth)

I honestly cant see anything notable coming of Church Fenton except in the niche business flight market. I dont think thr north needs any more airports and is well served by Liverpool, Manchester, Leeds and Newcastle.

 

[Haydn1971]

Considering Leeds/Bradford is rapidly expanding with International flights, a rail connection from Horsforth is proposed and former RAF Church Fenton right next to the York-Leeds line has just been bought to create a new Yorkshire airport, traffic from Yorkshire to MIA may even decline long term.

People have been saying that about Heathrow for decades - hasn't happened yet

I live in SE Sheffield, never once found a cheap flight from Doncaster, Leeds is a pig to get too, so my airport choices are in preference, East Midlands, Birmingham, Manchester, finally Luton at a push if the saving is good enough - What drives my choice isn't easy rail access, but least hassle driving and parking - I'd never consider using a train to an airport.

 

[bitmadmax]

Let us also address the matter of the large building development programme of works connected with the £700 million Middlewood Locks development that included 550 new homes that has certain "alternative" plans seeing a swathe of devastation ruining a well-planned site, that would to use the phrase you show above, be most certainly "second best" compared with the original well laid out plan.

So instead we will get a "swathe of devastation" (as you put it) right across a heritage site.

Never mind though, because our city really needs 550 new rabbit hutches.

 

[deltic08]

I am sorry but only a complete illiterate could describe the planning and consultation process leading up to this decision as satisfactory.

I went to the joke that was the choice of options. The choice had been made.

When I protested that the process was an insult to the public I was quickly removed from the fray for a private discussion where the consultation manager commented that I obviously had specialist knowledge and would I therefore send in a written submission - all fine and dandy - but the answers to the questions available to the public were of the yes no interlude type that could be computer read. Specialist input was not wanted or responded to.

At the end of the day MOSI - the Science Museum was bought off for a measly £3m to keep their traps shut and under the hand of a director brought in to do the job. Her predecessor Steve Davies made his feelings about the probity of the decision crystal clear earlier this month - but that din't get reported either.

Finally as to the disgraceful and contemptible suggestion that public participation in planning should be outlawed by one means or another - may I remind the politically naive that along that road lies one party government and loss of freedom.

Millions fought and died for that last century so who is anyone born fifty years later to betray that?

I am not doubting what you say, but if this is true and it has been steamrollered through by dishonest underhand dealings then I have to support Mr Whitby is his fight to expose this decision.

I hope Osborne is implicated if there has been any illegal dealings to force this through.

 

[HowardGWR]

There was a Public Inquiry into this scheme. Everyone could have submitted a proof of evidence and could have cross-examined opponents' witnesses (chiefly those of NR or its consultants).

There was no compunction to be swallowed up in a consultation response as one of many who did 'yes/no' responses to the promoter's invitation.

I have spent decades in this area (GHM! ) and the story from TBirdFrank seems to indicate that he did not realise that he could have responded direct to the Inquiry Inspector.

Forgive me if I retain scepticism that this was the case. Doubtless he will disabuse us if this was not so.

 

[anorack 1]

TBirdFrank is talking drivel. Its a new badly needed railway line. not a fight against Nazism.

Go and see the new Dads Army film and have a laugh.

 

[edwin_m]

My nearest railhead is ten miles away. Using public transport to reach Manchester Airport would require a taxi to the bus station, bus to Harrogate, train to Leeds and another train to MIA and that is assuming flight times are sensible.

I agree the Ordsall Chord is not much help to someone in Ripon. But a not inconsiderable number of people in Bradford and Halifax get a through train to Manchester Airport instead of having to make two changes at present - had you lived in one of those places it would probably have been useful to you! Plus it opens up north-south services and connections across Manchester which have never been satisfactory ever since the creation of separate stations on either side of the centre in Victorian times.

There wasn't even a lift at Manchester on the platform we arrived on from Garforth

Assuming this is Piccadilly, all the terminating platforms have access for wheelchairs past the buffer stops and the through platforms 13/14 have lifts. The quickest route to the Carlisle train on platform 14 via the eastern footbridge is not however wheelchair accessible from most of the other platforms. Perhaps this is an example of prudent spending, and also another illustration of why people prefer through trains?

We are not just talking £85m but also quadrifying from Deansgate to Piccadilly to allow an increase in Vic-Picc traffic. What is the whole package costing? £300m? £400m? What is the BCR for all this? I suspect this is more of an Osborne boosting proposal than a passenger convenience!!!

Lack of rail capacity through the centre of Manchester affects train frequency and performance all over the North of England, and is supported by all the local authorities regardless of political colour. The Ordsall Chord, lengthening four-tracking through Oxford Road and providing two more through platforms at Piccadilly (not quadrupling the entire section) are all part of this package, along with various measures in places such as Rochdale, Manchester Airport and as far away as Dore & Totley. While I have some doubts about the achievement of the precision operating needed for all the flat junctions to work, eliminating these junctions would have increased the cost hugely and a solution based on reinstating Blind Lane just does not deliver the operational benefits.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

So instead we will get a "swathe of devastation" (as you put it) right across a heritage site.

Never mind though, because our city really needs 550 new rabbit hutches.

I am pleased to see that you appear to have had full sight of the size and available facilities of the proposed dwellings on the Middlewood Locks development which has enabled you to make your "considered statement" in the quote above.

For heavens sake, this is 2016, and the Manchester/Salford conurbation's inner core has been in desperate need to ensure that many areas of past urban industrial dereliction needed to be removed and new buildings suitable suitable for a major area of England to be constructed to replace old and decaying structures. The needs of the many must over-ride the aspirations of the few.

I am all for what is now happening on the site of the former Manchester Exchange railway station, after the site being left in the condition that it was left for many years. One of the most laughable postings that I have ever read on this website a couple of years ago was for the demolition of the large multi-million pound modern events arena that was built at Manchester Victoria railway station in order to provide space for west-facing terminal platforms

If you have ever left Manchester Victoria railway station by the Long Millgate entrance, you will be immediately be struck by an immediate view the derelict truncated remains of a former building that I have been known to describe as the "Carbuncle of Manchester" on the SSC website. This is separate from the other areas that are under scaffolding on the same triangular site. Would you be vociferous in your demands that that building be retained for heritage purposes and be vehemently against the proposed hotel due to be built on that site?

For those who seem to feel the need for the retention of an area of urban industrial dereliction, I can do no better than to ask them to take a ride on the Manchester Metrolink and to disembark at the stop called Holt Town. There is enough of that type of dereliction in that area to satisfy their "hearts delight"

 

[Philip Phlopp]

So instead we will get a "swathe of devastation" (as you put it) right across a heritage site.

Never mind though, because our city really needs 550 new rabbit hutches.

A swathe of devastation is something I could agree with if it was an extension of the M60 or M62, with five lanes in either direction, but it's a railway causing a small amount of alteration to an existing railway, and as I've said repeatedly, ad nauseam, the fact the Ordsall Chord is needed is a testament to the importance of what Liverpool Road station introduced to the world, passenger railways, and it's appropriate Stephenson's work is being replaced by something he is, in no small part, directly responsible for.

The Middlewood Locks route also presents significant track layout and signalling difficulties (it has been explained before in significant detail) but essentially it creates traffic conflicts which will cripple the desired timetables and service patterns that are needed.

Joseph Locke explains the issues far better, and there's still all of Whitby's documentation online which when reviewed critically, shows how poor a design his option really is from an operational standpoint.

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showpost.php?p=2366085&postcount=827

 

[nidave]

Millions fought and died for that last century so who is anyone born fifty years later to betray that?

What has that got to do with anything?

You seem like you are a very angry man - the station is still there. MOSI was threatened with closure recently - so I am sure the money has helped keep it going. What do you think would have happened if it closed - the place would be flattened or left to rot.