-
Our new ticketing site is now live! Using either this or the original site (both powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!
Sheffield to Shenfield Cheaper to Fly
- Thread starter me123
- Start date
- Status
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R
RailUK Forums
The situation is a consequence of yield management, plus to some extent fragmentation of pricing, meaning that Advance fares in the UK aren't readily available for all reasonably long journeys which don't pass via London. Rail can also be incredibly cheap - look for example at the lowest Advance fares from London to Scotland normally available long in advance from about £15-£20 or the 24 € tickets available for Nice to Paris on a couple of trains next week (e.g. 2nd Feb at 17:02). There's also the failure to tax flying to the extent required to reflect its likely climate impacts which for this journey would probably be in the lower hundreds of pounds (based on estimates of what would be required to make European emissions trading work / estimates of what would be required to reduce flights in line with climate science; flight of that distance - about 200 kg CO2 equivalent each way, multiplied by factor of 2-3 for upper atmosphere effect, so equates to impact of about 1 tonne on the ground). Railways also require a lot of infrastructure not required for air. Not a particularly exciting story.
Last edited:
The sad fact is that the airfares part of the journey was only around £21. The rail fare part would have been £47. As it is, the railways, UK and German, got £9 off him anyway! The moneysavingexpert website got muddled between Sheffield and Shenfield and quotes an amazing bargain bus fare for his journey.
the cheapest tier on the trains for Sheffield-Shenfield is £27.
When there's no special offer on, booked in advance East Midlands-Berlin is a minimum of £19.99 and flights are only on a Monday, Wednesday and Friday at 0745. You can take the train any day of the week with departures every half hour
When there's no special offer on, booked in advance East Midlands-Berlin is a minimum of £19.99 and flights are only on a Monday, Wednesday and Friday at 0745. You can take the train any day of the week with departures every half hour
dcsprior
Member
Any environmental damage is surely done by the fact the flight is running. The additional emissions caused by one extra passenger are tiny.
Therefore, whilst I think you could make an argument that this flight should not exist, I don't think you can say it's "absolutely unacceptable" for what are probably a very small number of fares on it to be very low - if these fares result in an extra handful of people being on a plane which would've made the journey anyway, this has hardly any environmental impact. In fact in this extreme example, I expect the additional CO2 produced by carrying this passenger would be less than him driving Sheffield-Shenfield.
Therefore, whilst I think you could make an argument that this flight should not exist, I don't think you can say it's "absolutely unacceptable" for what are probably a very small number of fares on it to be very low - if these fares result in an extra handful of people being on a plane which would've made the journey anyway, this has hardly any environmental impact. In fact in this extreme example, I expect the additional CO2 produced by carrying this passenger would be less than him driving Sheffield-Shenfield.
An interesting story, picked up in a few of the newspapers.
Relevant parts of the blog copied below - the blog contains costings in picture form which I can't copy over.
Initially I scoffed and there are certainly times of the day when an Advance or splitting Advances would be cheaper than the £47 he would have paid, but it's certainly quite plausible that on a given day, those cheaper fares would have sold out - the claim just about stacks up, and of course the 'experience value' of visiting Berlin, however briefly, would have value!
Relevant parts of the blog copied below - the blog contains costings in picture form which I can't copy over.
Initially I scoffed and there are certainly times of the day when an Advance or splitting Advances would be cheaper than the £47 he would have paid, but it's certainly quite plausible that on a given day, those cheaper fares would have sold out - the claim just about stacks up, and of course the 'experience value' of visiting Berlin, however briefly, would have value!
DaiGog
Member
So does this prove that the railways are too expensive or Ryanair is too cheap? £47 doesn't seem unreasonable for the journey by rail to me.
Sometimes cornflakes are cheaper than porridge, and sometimes porridge in Waitrose is cheaper than cornflakes in Morrisons. That's life
This story seems accurate. I doubt he would get those cheap fares in the summer. The air passenger duty is £13 each way for Europe, so clearly Ryanair is not making any money.
Intelligent ticketing systems could clearly offer cheap tickets at £5 or £10 at the last minute for any train that is not full, but they won't.
Intelligent ticketing systems could clearly offer cheap tickets at £5 or £10 at the last minute for any train that is not full, but they won't.
LexyBoy
Established Member
Well, it's a bit different from the usual at least. Until the usual "I'm amazing at finding the cheapest flights but haven't got a clue about trains" comparisons...
Looking at fares for tomorrow - also a Friday like the "test" date but at much shorter notice, I see that London-Bristol is £32.50 walk-up, and London-Manchester has fares from £27 and again the walk-up fare is less than quoted. I don't doubt that it can be cheaper (scandalously IMO), but it must be very rare unless as with the author here someone is knowledgeable about air fares yet can't be bothered to spend a couple of minutes on NRE.
No doubt NX or split rail tickets would have been cheaper than the flights.
Looking at fares for tomorrow - also a Friday like the "test" date but at much shorter notice, I see that London-Bristol is £32.50 walk-up, and London-Manchester has fares from £27 and again the walk-up fare is less than quoted. I don't doubt that it can be cheaper (scandalously IMO), but it must be very rare unless as with the author here someone is knowledgeable about air fares yet can't be bothered to spend a couple of minutes on NRE.
No doubt NX or split rail tickets would have been cheaper than the flights.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
XC do precisely that.
northwichcat
Veteran Member
If an airline offer flights for £9.99 they'll make around 1p from the sale of the ticket and the rest will be taxes and airport charges. Usually they charge a lot more in one direction than the other so you might get a flight to Europe for £9.99 but the cheapest you can get back is £49.99. Then those fares don't include using the check-in desk, having hold luggage, paying by credit card, refreshments etc. which are ways the airline can charge you more on top of the advertised fare. It's called a business model and it's a viable one judging by the success of budget airlines.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
There's different sized aircrafts though, just like there's different sized trains and buses. Some of Flybe's planes only seat around 70 while most budget airlines use planes which seat more than double that number of passengers, so if the route can't fill a 150 seater plane under Easyjet and Easyjet withdraw it could be Flybe reintroduce the route using a 70 seater plane.
Which is better - £3850 taken for a full 70 seater (average £55/passenger) or £6750 taken for a full 150 seater (average £45/passenger)?
Last edited by a moderator:
RichmondCommu
Established Member
My wife and I feel entitled to two weeks in a hot and sunny climate for the very fact that we work damn hard for the rest of the year! Why shouldn't we go off and enjoy ourselves in the sun?
And yes you're right, I couldn't care less that we're polluting the atmosphere by flying down to the Med any more than you do by catching a HST from London St Pancras!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Why did you feel the need to type that? In what way do you hope to endear yourself to others by typing that? Do you realise how silly you appear to be by posting that?
Some of the stuff that you post on this forum is interesting and informative and then you choose to post that.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I've no intention of trying to wind you up, it's not worth the effort. All I'm doing is being honest with you.
northwichcat
Veteran Member
The likes of Lonely Planet and Rough Guides encourage you to go away from longer opposed to lots of short trips for environmental reasons, so 2 weeks away opposed to a week away alongside 2 x weekends away is doing just that.
RichmondCommu
Established Member
However even Monday to Friday you would surely have far more time in London by flying given that the check in times for domestic flights are shorter than they are for international flights.
CaptainHaddock
Established Member
- Joined
- 10 Feb 2011
- Messages
- 2,724
If he was that obsessed with saving money he could have got a megabus single from London Victoria coach station to Sheffield for £1. Add a Brentwood-London single for £10.80 and he could have done the journey for over £30 cheaper than the one he did by plane.
Oh and surely he had to pay for a passport as well?
Oh and surely he had to pay for a passport as well?
northwichcat
Veteran Member
Saying coach is cheaper than train wouldn't have made a news story though. I think most people are in possession of a passport anyway
DarloRich
Veteran Member
What a supercilious post and accompanying attitude! I do love the childish little strop. Superb!
Guess what - few care about the ecological damage! I understand that we as humans are polluting our planet. Have I turned my gas central heating off or my electric light to sit in the dark and cold? Have I heck!
I know that travel pollutes and planes most of all but if I fancy exercising my choice to travel by plane then I will. If that makes me some kind of eco criminal then so be it! That is the view most people take, if they consider the planet for more than a micro second when booking that cheap flight to Prague.
If you offer me and my gf a cheap weekend away by air in an interesting, cultural and enlightening European city I will take it. Sorry if that upsets you. Its called free will.
you still have to pay the £72.50 at some point in the process. You don't if you use the train
Last edited:
gordonthemoron
Established Member
The cheapest fare from Megatrain for Sheffield-St Pancras for tomorrow is £18, the most expensive is £30. Didn't do his homework very well
ExRes
Established Member
I don't travel abroad any more so I'm not sure of the exact procedure for inter-EU flights, what I'm wondering though is why would he happen to have his passport on him for an Essex to Sheffield to Essex journey ?
Surely there couldn't be more to this than meets the eye ...........
Surely there couldn't be more to this than meets the eye ...........
northwichcat
Veteran Member
If you have one and are making additional trips then you are getting better value for money. For instance, taking one trip abroad per annum means you effectively pay £7.25 per trip. If you make one trip to Europe a month in lieu of a domestic rail journey on top of an annual trip then it effectively costs 66p per trip.
Although, if you were born before September 1929 you don't have to pay for a passport and would have got them for free for your entire life and the charge was below £72 until 2007 so some people will still be on passports which were cheaper than your quoted price.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Even the Daily Mail noted he booked the journey 3 weeks in advance so even if his passport was at the other address there would have been time to post it to him.
Travel in the EU for EU nationals requires either a valid passport or Valid national ID card. National ID cards were scrapped in Britain but people of other nationalities like Spanish can use them for travel within the EU.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
So how much were the Megatrain tickets if booked for the day he travelled 3 weeks in advance?
DarloRich
Veteran Member
Agreed - although for most people likely to travel by air there is a cost involved in obtaining a passport
The arrogance of some forum members never fails to surprise. Why would you think you have the right to fly to a holiday in another country? You don't. Get over it. The fact that you can is something you should be grateful for, not something to take for granted. And DarloRich I know your post reflects your own selfish attitude but that doesn't justify it. It's far from true that everyone thinks like that regardless of your views.
Its safest for the people doing the travelling, but has more effect on the climate than other methods, so could be the most dangerous for the world in general
Well thats part of the issue. With the high speed network around most of Europe, a properly connected system could get you many places in Europe in a reasonable time for a weekend break, however politics gets in the way. If the prices contained a true representation of the enviromental costs, then the train would win over the plane. Both these limitations of trains are things that we humans have chosen, for some reason.
Property is damaged through environmental change, flooding in particular. How much of that change is due to man is debatable, but I very much doubt it would be none. Flying would be a small part of our influence and your travel a minute part. You not flying would make next to no difference, but like littering, its the sum of the parts.
Personally I do not begrudge you your holiday and I would do the same when I can afford it but at the same time maybe we should be aware of the effects it has and also that (speaking in terms of the entire population of the world) we are incredibly lucky.
DarloRich
Veteran Member
Of course not everyone thinks like me :roll:
I am simply saying that, in relation to this particular example, most people do. Most real people when offered a cheap flight abroad will take it with only the most cursory consideration of the environmental impact of that flight, if they make any consideration at all. That is their choice, selfish as that may appear to you. Until legislation makes such flights illegal it is their right to make that choice, just as it is your right to voice your unhappiness with their right to make such a choice.
PS What of your arrogance in trying to impose your world view on others and limit their right to make their own choices in life?
Last edited:
I don't think anyone here is taking it for granted in that way. The subject of this thread is clearly a lighthearted article and yes, if I wasn't time pressured and Luton - Dublin - Edinburgh by plane (for example) happens to be cheaper than Bedford - Edinburgh, I would totally do that, and take the opportunity to see a new city on route.
That isn't taking air travel for granted, it's just taking a good advantage of a good deal.
While the BBC didn't mention the airline, it's great advertising for Ryanair and/or Money Saving Expert.
I got all the offers of cheap flights after Christmas from Ryanair, but as it was a sale (many flights for £9.99 I recall) I didn't really think it was a new way to travel over using trains in the UK. It was a time limited sale, with restrictions.
Fun, yes. We could all sit down and look for these things, but that's all it would be - a bit of fun.
Just as I get all those dodgy surveys that are just attempts to get a company into the papers, I think this is also a good marketing effort from MSE, perhaps in conjunction with Ryanair to promote its recent sale. It even made the BBC (but with no mention of Ryanair) so it's all good publicity, especially with people making such ridiculous claims that it shows how high our rail fares are.
For this tiny amount of money, I really don't think people are going to travel via Germany much - even if the Ryanair fares were available every day. Time has a cost too.
I got all the offers of cheap flights after Christmas from Ryanair, but as it was a sale (many flights for £9.99 I recall) I didn't really think it was a new way to travel over using trains in the UK. It was a time limited sale, with restrictions.
Fun, yes. We could all sit down and look for these things, but that's all it would be - a bit of fun.
Just as I get all those dodgy surveys that are just attempts to get a company into the papers, I think this is also a good marketing effort from MSE, perhaps in conjunction with Ryanair to promote its recent sale. It even made the BBC (but with no mention of Ryanair) so it's all good publicity, especially with people making such ridiculous claims that it shows how high our rail fares are.
For this tiny amount of money, I really don't think people are going to travel via Germany much - even if the Ryanair fares were available every day. Time has a cost too.
Ah sorry, didn't think to check the General forum!
My last return to Berlin cost about £400 and took about 4 hours door to door (50 minutes home-plane, 2 hours on the plane, 50 minutes plane-office)
You'd need A theoretical 200mph non stop train (i.e the fastest TGVs, and line speed through the tunnel) with no silliness like eurostar "security", to do the 897 mile trip in 4 hours 30m, plus 20 minutes transfer at each end pushes it to 5 hours.
The highest figure I've seen says it's $220 a ton. The US government reckons it's $37.
An easyjet A319 produces about 12 tonnes of carbon in each direction (http://www.greengauge21.net/wp-content/uploads/Energy-Consumption-and-CO2-impacts.pdf page 13) and carries 156 seats. That's (12 * 2 * 220 / 156) $5280, or £3300 of "social cost", or £21 per passenger for a return trip, assuming a 100% load factor, so lets call it £40 return.
http://www.ecopassenger.org/ reckons Paris to Nice is 7.3kg per person for 560 miles, so a 900 mile each way trip would be 23kg, or about 1/10th a 50% loaded easyjet plane.
By taking that 200mph non stop train, you may only need an extra hour each way, but it's only saving £18 each way. Based on the Crewe-London costs of LM vs Virgin, I believe that people will spend an extra £18 to save an hour.
This ignores the actual likelihood of a non-stop Manchester-Berlin train running twice a day cost having a load factor high enough to keep co2 per person down to that on the Paris-Nice line, and completely ignores the financial and operational implications of such a service.
P.S .Petrol generates 2.3kg/litre, Diesel 2.6kg/litre (http://people.exeter.ac.uk/TWDavies/energy_conversion/Calculation of CO2 emissions from fuels.htm), so about 450 litres per ton. Fuel duty is 60p/litre (plus VAT on the fuel duty), social costs 32-36p/litre.
The cost of reducing carbon (by closing fossil fuel power plants and replacing with nuclear or tidal or solar or wind or whatever) is far less than $220 a kg.
By all means advocate a $220/kg global CO2 tax, with proceeds to alternate energy, however it won't change the fact that by far the fastest and cheapest way to get from Manchester to Berlin (or Sheffield to Berlin in this case) will be via train.
- Status