TPE franchise awarded to First

[Philip Phlopp]

As a rough estimate 3 members of staff per service earning £23,000 per year on 28 sets would cost you around £2 million per annum extra in staffing costs just to cover the peak and shoulder peak on weekdays only. Then there's the cost of loco-hauled using more diesel and having higher track access charges to consider. No wonder First didn't go for that option!

That very much depends on what you are comparing an HST to, and what sort of lengths of HST you're taking into account. It's worth remembering a Class 185 uses a significant amount of fuel, has relatively low passenger capacity and significant track access charges, plus the inconvenience of not meeting MU or HST speed differentials.

If there are significant additional costs, they would in part be offset by lower leasing costs on stock that's close to being life expired. First do also have their own HST stock which would further reduce leasing costs.

The revenue potential of the stock far exceeds that of Class 185 units too, it's only when you get into Mark 3, Mark 4 and now AT300 stock do you start getting sensible passenger numbers per carriage once again.

The franchise is also intending additional staffing, it's just a case of moving staff around during the period of using HST sets prior to electrification, as I say, this would purely be until electrification completes and full electric stock could be ordered.

If the route wasn't to be electrified, I'd have put hard money on TransPennine using HST sets in exactly the same way ScotRail will be using them.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

ATW aren't able to get 4 car loco-hauled workings with 125mph capable locos to work to 175 timings - the 67 hauled workings are quite a bit slower, so are the 43s a lot faster off the mark?

Yes - they've got another 1100hp at rail to play with, and Class 67 loco hauled sets have issues with HST and MU differentials, remember. They'll do more speeding up and slowing down, whereas an HST will sit at a steady speed, very much worth looking at Sectional Appendixes to see just how hard the Class 67s have it.

 

[northwichcat]

It's worth remembering a Class 185 uses a significant amount of fuel, has relatively low passenger capacity and significant track access charges, plus the inconvenience of not meeting MU or HST speed differentials.

The cost of a 3 car 185 in access charges is less than the cost of the 43 loco alone, so 2 x 43 locos costs more than a 6 car 185 without providing a single passenger seat.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

At least the Class 185 units offer first class accommodation which my wife found useful on lengthy return journeys from Manchester to Durham, when for a period of six years, on a bi-monthly basis, she chaired a committee.

Not much "wedging" is usually noticed in the first class accommodation.

Which of course is why introduction of first-class on the route by Northern Spirit way back when, should have been delayed until there was sufficient capacity. When the 158s were refurbished (with 2+2 first class, by the way) the capacity of each unit went down by half a coach (3-car) and a third of a coach (2-car) respectively. The fact that first is usually empty on the 185s should surely suggest that there isn't much of a market for it.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Which of course is why introduction of first-class on the route by Northern Spirit way back when, should have been delayed until there was sufficient capacity. When the 158s were refurbished (with 2+2 first class, by the way) the capacity of each unit went down by half a coach (3-car) and a third of a coach (2-car) respectively. The fact that first is usually empty on the 185s should surely suggest that there isn't much of a market for it.

I have asked my wife about the journeys she travelled to and from Durham (peak times in both directions) and she assures me that at those times, in those days, the first class compartment was virtually fully booked with associated seat reservation tickets prominently displayed.

There is 2 + 1 seating in the Class 185 first class section, which seems to be a marketable point when offering this type of accommodation. Incidentally, as I have often remarked in the past, we have used the first class accommodation for all our return journeys when travelling to Windermere and are you saying that since we have paid the extra costs for this type of service, we should concern ourselves with those making the decision to travel in standard class?

 

[61653 HTAFC]

I have asked my wife about the journeys she travelled to and from Durham (peak times in both directions) and she assures me that at those times, in those days, the first class compartment was virtually fully booked with associated seat reservation tickets prominently displayed.

There is 2 + 1 seating in the Class 185 first class section, which seems to be a marketable point when offering this type of accommodation. Incidentally, as I have often remarked in the past, we have used the first class accommodation for all our return journeys when travelling to Windermere and are you saying that since we have paid the extra costs for this type of service, we should concern ourselves with those making the decision to travel in standard class?

I'm making no judgement of those who choose to travel first class (though such a choice is only available to those who can afford it, of course), simply that provision of a "premium" area on services which were already overcrowded should've been blocked by those bodies elected or appointed to safeguard the needs of the majority.

Disclaimer: I myself have used first-class on one occasion on TPE, on a Sunday evening journey from Liverpool to Huddersfield. Upon arrival at Oxford Road the guard announced that first was being declassified due to two earlier trains being cancelled. I have never experienced first being declassified when not travelling on a first-class ticket!

 

[northwichcat]

I have never experienced first being declassified when not travelling on a first-class ticket!

I haven't either except if you count the 180s with Northern which had carriage D permanently declassified.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

I haven't either except if you count the 180s with Northern which had carriage D permanently declassified.

Of course, I was omitting any situation as you describe, where first is declassified due to not being advertised on that service. When that happens I naturally take every advantage! The 307s to Doncaster, 308s to Ilkley, one end of the TPE 170s when they first arrived, even a SWT 158 to Denby Dale!

 

[class26]

. The fact that first is usually empty on the 185s should surely suggest that there isn't much of a market for it.

Or that first product on offer isn`t worth paying for. A PROPER first class with 2 + 1 seating etc would be used I am sure.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Or that first product on offer isn`t worth paying for. A PROPER first class with 2 + 1 seating etc would be used I am sure.

As Paul mentioned a few posts back, the first on 185s IS 2+1. That there's no complimentary coffee or snacks is a downside, along with at least in my case journeys on TPE are usually only a stop or two, so why bother with first anyway. It is usually close to empty in my experience though (in what is the busiest section of route) so either a lack of demand (or the offering not meeting the demand in terms of quality) seems apparent.

 

[northwichcat]

That there's no complimentary coffee or snacks is a downside

I thought there was but only between Manchester and Leeds/York/Sheffield/Preston between 7am and 7pm on weekdays, with the exception of Scottish services which have better provision and Blackpool class 156 services which no longer have FC.

 

[Starmill]

As Paul mentioned a few posts back, the first on 185s IS 2+1. That there's no complimentary coffee or snacks is a downside, along with at least in my case journeys on TPE are usually only a stop or two, so why bother with first anyway. It is usually close to empty in my experience though (in what is the busiest section of route) so either a lack of demand (or the offering not meeting the demand in terms of quality) seems apparent.

There is a complementary offer of a tea or coffee and still or sparkling water plus selection of little cakes biscuits and snacks wherever there is a trolley on the train (as correctly identified by jcollins).

First Class seat occupancy, in common with Standard, leaving Manchester is generally quite high. I have been on several trains where all of the seats were taken.

Upon arrival at Oxford Road the guard announced that first was being declassified due to two earlier trains being cancelled. I have never experienced first being declassified when not travelling on a first-class ticket!

I assume the appropriate refund was duly sought and provided?

 

[brompton rail]

I thought there was but only between Manchester and Leeds/York/Sheffield/Preston between 7am and 7pm on weekdays, with the exception of Scottish services which have better provision and Blackpool class 156 services which no longer have FC.

South TransPennine (First Class) refreshment trolley is usually available between Manchester and Doncaster, though since the trolley is removed at these locations service ends a bit before each. Often commences soon after departure however.

First is well worth the money on 1620 Manchester Piccadilly to Doncaster as this train is full and standing in standard from both Manchester and from Sheffield despite being a pair of class 170's.

 

[northwichcat]

The award of the franchise to First Group is being investigated by the Competition and Markets Authority.

Phase 1
Invitation to comment: closes 1 February 2016
18 January 2016: The Competition and Markets Authority (CMA) is considering whether it is or may be the case that this transaction if carried into effect, will result in the creation of a relevant merger situation under the merger provisions of the Enterprise Act 2002 and, if so, whether the creation of that situation may be expected to result, in a substantial lessening of competition within any market or markets in the United Kingdom for goods or services.

Deadline for phase 1 decision: 14 March 2016

https://www.gov.uk/cma-cases/first-...transpennine-express-franchise-merger-inquiry

First Group do operate bus services between Manchester and Huddersfield and between Huddersfield and Leeds which serve the towns and villages served by the stations which First TPE will take over from Northern. If that's what the competition relates to I imagine worst case scenario for First will be they'll cancel those bus services and another operator will take them on.

 

[Greybeard33]

So where about's on the TransPennine North corridor between York and Manchester can you do 125mph ? I seem to recall most of the line has 90-50mph speed limits. Plus I refer the honourable gentlemen upwards to my post on kW and the application of power via motors etc...

Back of envelope calc:
From figures previously quoted on the 800 thread the total generator power of 3*700=2100kW (without derating) translates to about 1500kW mechanical power (work) at the rail after subtracting auxiliary power and losses. The tare weight of the 5-car train is 250 tonnes; say 300 tonnes gross weight after adding passengers, luggage and fuel.

Assuming a minimum acceleration of 0.04m/s/s (5mph/min) is needed to attain the 125mph (55m/s) maximum speed, the power reserve P needed for acceleration a of the train mass m at maximum speed v is given by
P=m*a*v=300*0.04*55=660kW
Neglecting rolling resistance, this means the power needed to overcome air resistance at 125mph can be no greater than 1500-660=840kW. The power needed to overcome air resistance increases as the cube of speed, so at 70mph (31m/s) this would drop to 840(70/125)^3=150kW, 690kW less.

I believe that the gradient from Huddersfield up to Standedge is about 1 in 105, so the vertical speed component at 70mph is 31/105=0.295m/s. The power P needed to raise the train mass m at vertical speed v up this climb is then given by
P=m*g*v=300*9.8*0.295=870kW

So the mechanical power needed to maintain 70mph up the 1 in 105 climb would be at least 870+150=1020kW. This would leave 440kW in reserve, which would give an acceleration rate of 440/(300*31)=0.05m/s/s (7mph/min) at 31m/s (70mph).

Unless my maths has gone astray, these figures suggest that the train would struggle to attain linespeed on the Pennine climbs if the engine power were reduced significantly.

 

[class26]

As Paul mentioned a few posts back, the first on 185s IS 2+1. That there's no complimentary coffee or snacks is a downside, along with at least in my case journeys on TPE are usually only a stop or two, so why bother with first anyway. It is usually close to empty in my experience though (in what is the busiest section of route) so either a lack of demand (or the offering not meeting the demand in terms of quality) seems apparent.

It may be 2 + 1 but the seating in first is less good than many european trains in second.

 

[WatcherZero]

Not unsurprising but they already had the franchise so you could argue its not a change.

Stagecoach had a similar investigation when they won East Coast over their domination of bus services in the North East, they then widened it to cover control of rail franchises in the East Midlands and coach services north of the central belt in Scotland while dropping the bus concerns.

The CMA terms were ultimately that they couldn't increase EMT rail fares via Spalding and Peterborough-Grantham more than agreed in the Franchise Agreement plus RPI. That EC fares on the indirect via Newark North Gate should not rise higher than direct fares.

On Coaches, that two ComfortDelGro directors should be present at any Stagecoach board meeting discussing CITYLINK/Megabus fares, route and timetable.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

There is a complementary offer of a tea or coffee and still or sparkling water plus selection of little cakes biscuits and snacks wherever there is a trolley on the train (as correctly identified by jcollins).

First Class seat occupancy, in common with Standard, leaving Manchester is generally quite high. I have been on several trains where all of the seats were taken.



I assume the appropriate refund was duly sought and provided?

Forms were handed out, but as I was on a £6 advance I didn't see the point in claiming my £3 or so back. At the time I don't think there were any extras for first, but that may have been down to it being a Sunday.

 

[pennine]

Sorry if this sounds daft, but when a pair of 170's operate, what is the trolley provision like? Is there a trolley on each set?

 

[jimm]

The award of the franchise to First Group is being investigated by the Competition and Markets Authority.

https://www.gov.uk/cma-cases/first-...transpennine-express-franchise-merger-inquiry

First Group do operate bus services between Manchester and Huddersfield and between Huddersfield and Leeds which serve the towns and villages served by the stations which First TPE will take over from Northern. If that's what the competition relates to I imagine worst case scenario for First will be they'll cancel those bus services and another operator will take them on.

I'd hardly describe the 184 as competing with the trains for custom between Manchester and Huddersfield - or anywhere in between given how slow it is. End-to-end journeys clock in at just under two hours.

And the X6 between Leeds and Huddersfield, via Bradford and Brighouse, takes 75 minutes or so. The 202 and 203, which more closely follow the rail route, via Dewsbury and Mirfield, taking 1hr 40mins, are operated by Arriva - are they going to get investigated as well?

You would think the CMA had better things to do than this.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I'd hardly describe the 184 as competing with the trains for custom between Manchester and Huddersfield - or anywhere in between given how slow it is. End-to-end journeys clock in at just under two hours.

And the X6 between Leeds and Huddersfield, via Bradford and Brighouse, takes 75 minutes or so. The 202 and 203, which more closely follow the rail route, via Dewsbury and Mirfield, taking 1hr 40mins, are operated by Arriva - are they going to get investigated as well?

You would think the CMA had better things to do than this.

The service 184 is really three conjoined services with the Huddersfield to Marsden and the Manchester to Uppermill parts having a cross-Pennine centre section added on in-between.

 

[Haydn1971]

You could run TransPennine with cascaded HST sets, running under a derogation to avoid power door fitment, if you really want to avoid buying bi-mode AT300 type units.

And the comedy award for January goes to....

Sorry Philip, but you know this is a ridiculous idea, firstly where are the HST's coming from, then the timings, the derogation required, the staff resource for ensuring doors get shut, mad idea, almost as mad as the hauled 442 waffle that was going around a few months back

 

[Philip Phlopp]

And the comedy award for January goes to....

Sorry Philip, but you know this is a ridiculous idea, firstly where are the HST's coming from, then the timings, the derogation required, the staff resource for ensuring doors get shut, mad idea, almost as mad as the hauled 442 waffle that was going around a few months back

Did you read my full post ?

I said, if you want to avoid buying bi-mode units, and move straight to a full electric unit after we electrify the route, then HST as a stop gap measure is an option (and pretty much the only option).

It's a crap option, just as crap as 442s and loco haulage, but it's about the only option out there other than ordering bi-mode units.

IEP for East Coast is still to programme, so there's a dozen HST sets available late 2018 to mid 2019, which would match bi-mode AT300 delivery (assuming it's to be AT300 for TransPennine), to answer your question about where the HST sets are coming from. Timings are a problem, but then we're going to be working on the route, there will be disruption in any case, a timetable to suit a short term HST deployment is easily achievable, and if it also provides more generous engineering access, it wouldn't be a bad idea.

 

[scotsman]

Sorry if this sounds daft, but when a pair of 170's operate, what is the trolley provision like? Is there a trolley on each set?

I highly doubt it. Skytrac don't want to spend the money, and they don't have the staff either

 

[Haydn1971]

Unless my maths has gone astray, these figures suggest that the train would struggle to attain linespeed on the Pennine climbs if the engine power were reduced significantly.

Sorry chap, I remain unconvinced, looking at your math with tired eyes seems to demonstrate that a 185 and a AT300 would struggle too !
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Did you read my full post ?

Clearly not, my eyes are tired after a day sat in traffic on the M6

I said, if you want to avoid buying bi-mode units, and move straight to a full electric unit after we electrify the route, then HST as a stop gap measure is an option (and pretty much the only option).

Phew, I was thinking you'd had a mad hot flush with your idea !

It's a crap option, just as crap as 442s and loco haulage, but it's about the only option out there other than ordering bi-mode units.

So, bi-modes it is then

 

[455driver]

Likewise the DfT would like lots of days where there are good news stories about the railways.

Yeah us giving several million pounds to Johnny Foreigner for some new trains is a good news story isn't it!

Edit-
I wonder if it would qualify as 'foreign aid' and then come out of that (ever increasing) pot of cash?

 

[The Ham]

Yeah us giving several million pounds to Johnny Foreigner for some new trains is a good news story isn't it!

For those who are going to use the trains, assuming that there's going to be increased capacity then they would think that it's good news.

Depending on the supply chain (which can be from anywhere in the world) there could be companies in the UK who benefit. Of course these new trains are at least for a British TOC.

 

[northwichcat]

I'd hardly describe the 184 as competing with the trains for custom between Manchester and Huddersfield - or anywhere in between given how slow it is. End-to-end journeys clock in at just under two hours.

Read my post more carefully, I said the bus services serve the villages and towns which the current TPE franchise doesn't serve but the next one will. It will mean for a journey like Marsden to Huddersfield instead of the choice being Northern or First Bus it will be First TPE or First Bus.

 

[jimm]

Read my post more carefully, I said the bus services serve the villages and towns which the current TPE franchise doesn't serve but the next one will. It will mean for a journey like Marsden to Huddersfield instead of the choice being Northern or First Bus it will be First TPE or First Bus.

I did read it carefully and what you said was:

First Group do operate bus services between Manchester and Huddersfield and between Huddersfield and Leeds which serve the towns and villages served by the stations which First TPE will take over from Northern

"Bus services between Manchester and Huddersfield and between Huddersfield and Leeds" - your words. In which case, the only service that description applies to is the 184 at Slaithwaite and Marsden.

On the other hand, if you were actually referring to various other First services that do indeed serve a number of the communities between those points where TPE will take over the stations then there could be competition concerns, though quite what benefit passengers might derive from these areas being amputated from rest of the networks of the main bus operator in Huddersfield and Leeds is hard to see.

 

[thealexweb]

Does anyone know what Transpennine Express' calling pattern between Newcastle and Edinburgh Waverley will be? I am curious as I may be moving to Dunbar next year. One can always hope XD

 

[Romilly]

The only reference I can see about stops on the new TPE Newcastle-Edinburgh services is to hourly calls at Morpeth. And not until December 2019.

But there is hope for a new local service, including stops at re-opened stations at East Linton and Reston, by December 2018: see http://www.rages.org.uk. The local service would be a Scotrail service between Edinburgh and Berwick-upon-Tweed running every 2 hours.