Brake Testing When Attaching Units

[Jamesb1974]

In addition to all the above, the timing of the running brake test is at driver discretion, but must be before the first stopping point or steep falling gradient.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

On a driver's eye view DVD that I've got the drivers do a brake test just as they're pulling out of the first station after having taken over a unit, is that standard across all TOCs?

 

[sarahj]

On a driver's eye view DVD that I've got the drivers do a brake test just as they're pulling out of the first station after having taken over a unit, is that standard across all TOCs?

From what I've noticed about our drivers is they do one when they take over a new train, so coming out of Brighton you mainly get one, and then any time a new driver takes over. Some are more noticeable than others.

 

[redbutton]

Southern's instructions call for a running brake test achieving a reduction of at least 5mph, to be performed after reaching 30mph. Depending on the gradient, you might give it a gentle step 1 or a harder (especially on 377) step 2.

RBTs are meant to be performed after attaching or detaching, though if leaving on cautionary aspects it may not be possible to reach 30mph before braking so you might not notice it.

[Brake applications to heat the discs during snow] is pretty pointless on stock fitted with regenerative or rheostatic braking because you wont put much heat into the brake components

On 377 and I assume other Electrostars, you do get some friction brake pressure when in full service braking, even with regen enabled.

 

[A-driver]

On a driver's eye view DVD that I've got the drivers do a brake test just as they're pulling out of the first station after having taken over a unit, is that standard across all TOCs?

Yes. Whenever you take out or take over a train for the first time. Some TOCs say every trip from each end but mine now only requires it when taking the train originally from each end. So if you do a double Cambridge return in the same unit you need a brake test 1st trip in each direction, no need on the 2nd trip.

 

[SPADTrap]

In addition to all the above, the timing of the running brake test is at driver discretion, but must be before the first stopping point or steep falling gradient.

That sneaky rule change a while back changing it from every few minutes to as frequently as necessary after that 66 ran into trouble doing them ever few minutes? Shift responsibility to us!

 

[ComUtoR]

That sneaky rule change a while back changing it from every few minutes to as frequently as necessary after that 66 ran into trouble doing them ever few minutes? Shift responsibility to us!

HEheheehehehe newbies !

A few years ago the RBT there were more RBT rules. It is a lot more relaxed than it used to be that is for certain. The new way is better. With so many variations on traction and routes as well as the ubiqutious "Professional Driving Policy's" Its better for the rule book to have a simple instruction and the TOC's then sort out the nitty gritty.

 

[scott118]

the reduction in RBT's was brought in by my TOC, in an attempt to reduce the amount of delay's incurred during the day - a RBT, from each lead cab, upon driving that particular formation, is all that is required now. Meaning, that if you are, in the same unit all day, it's one on the up and one on the down. Change of unit? RBT required, simples..

 

[SPADTrap]

HEheheehehehe newbies !

A few years ago the RBT there were more RBT rules. It is a lot more relaxed than it used to be that is for certain. The new way is better. With so many variations on traction and routes as well as the ubiqutious "Professional Driving Policy's" Its better for the rule book to have a simple instruction and the TOC's then sort out the nitty gritty.

I'm not sure you understand what I meant, Com.

 

[ComUtoR]

The problem with the RBT was that people ONLY done them as per the book then pretty much never do them again.

After an incident the OTMR showed a RBT was done. I think the shift in the rule book is a better one and the blame went to the TOC and its policy. The TOC's shift the blame to us.

I don't believe its "blame" and believe it is more to give us the responsibility to drive and drive how our units drive. There are just as many out there saying stop all the telling us how to drive and just let us drive. "as necessary" means we can drive according to traction and conditions. Every 3-5 minutes meant that I would almost never do a RBT as I'm stopping every 3-5 minutes in the metro area anyway but on long distance mainline 3-5 minutes makes perfect sense.

 

[Deepgreen]

Given that your sat inside the passenger compartment, with no forward view, how do you know that the brake applications you are feeling are running brake tests? The driver could have complied with his TOC's instructions and performed the test before you even knew about it. There is nothing to say that you must apply the brakes sharply. In fact, doing so could lead to wheel slide and the formation of wheel flats.

You've stated that on late running trains, you feel the drivers performing a running brake test. Given that a) they are late running and b) you can't see the line ahead, is it possible that the train you are travelling on is running under restrictive signalling??

The same goes for your comment about the GWR trains. You can't see what is ahead. Is there a speed restriction (permanent, temporary or emergency) at the place where the trains 'always slow to a crawl', or are they running under restrictive aspects?

Conducting a running brake test is mandatory when first getting on a train, but when and where is totally at the driver's discretion. My employer wants to see a brake application and a reduction in speed of between 10 and 12 mph, but they leave it to me whether I conduct it at 13 mph or 60 mph.

Same brake applications regularly in the same places (i.e. just after having left Redhill in either direction in the cases I quoted) with green aspects and no PSRs or TSRs, having attached or changed ends. Yes, it may be an assumption, but I think a valid one. To those who have submitted helpful and civil responses -thank you.

 

[cjmillsnun]

Same brake applications regularly in the same places (i.e. just after having left Redhill in either direction in the cases I quoted) with green aspects and no PSRs or TSRs, having attached or changed ends. Yes, it may be an assumption, but I think a valid one. To those who have submitted helpful and civil responses -thank you.

Unless you're in the cab, you or are sitting behind the cab and can hear the AWS, then no it isn't a fair assumption. Only one person can normally see the signal aspect and that's the driver.

 

[ComUtoR]

Unless you're in the cab, you or are sitting behind the cab and can hear the AWS, then no it isn't a fair assumption. Only one person can normally see the signal aspect and that's the driver.

I also cannot find, nor am I aware of any rulebook instruction that states a running brake test must be carried out after an attachment. So if a Driver doesn't carry one out then I have no issue.

 

[A-driver]

Same brake applications regularly in the same places (i.e. just after having left Redhill in either direction in the cases I quoted) with green aspects and no PSRs or TSRs, having attached or changed ends. Yes, it may be an assumption, but I think a valid one. To those who have submitted helpful and civil responses -thank you.

You would have absolutely no idea as a passenger if there were any TSR/ESRs. None whatsoever.

You won't always notice an RBT as I have already explained. Depends on the drivers driving style weather or not you will notice it. It's certainly possible to do an RBT very smoothly at a speed great enough that you wouldn't notice the reduction in speed as a passenger. You are only knocking a few mph off.

 

[Deepgreen]

You would have absolutely no idea as a passenger if there were any TSR/ESRs. None whatsoever.

As a passenger who has also worked on the railways for 36 years, who knows what a TSR board looks like, who knows what the aspect of the signals are when his train leaves the platform (seen from the front part of the front coach), who knows the routes being taken very well, who has the ability to look out of the window facing forward and see upcoming signals on curves, etc, who recognises a short brake application at the same rough point for what it obviously is, and as someone who has experienced the same applications on so many occasions over several years - yes I have!! The only thing I was unsure of was whether it was mandatory - now resolved I think (see below).
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I also cannot find, nor am I aware of any rulebook instruction that states a running brake test must be carried out after an attachment. So if a Driver doesn't carry one out then I have no issue.

So, after all the ludicrous bickering and bristling in response to my OP - this is all I wanted to know - thank you.

 

[A-driver]

As a passenger who has also worked on the railways for 36 years, who knows what a TSR board looks like, who knows what the aspect of the signals are when his train leaves the platform (seen from the front part of the front coach), who knows the routes being taken very well, who has the ability to look out of the window facing forward and see upcoming signals on curves, etc, who recognises a short brake application at the same rough point for what it obviously is, and as someone who has experienced the same applications on so many occasions over several years - yes I have!! The only thing I was unsure of was whether it was mandatory - now resolved I think (see below).
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


So, after all the ludicrous bickering and bristling in response to my OP - this is all I wanted to know - thank you.

Lol. So you arnt a driver but spend you hour use trying your hardest to look out the front and worry about things which don't concern you so you can attempt to pick drivers up for things they have and havnt done?

I stand by my post-as a PASSENGER on the train you have absolutely no way of knowing 100% what TSR/ESRs there are ahead and can see (and know) a mere fraction of what the driver does.

And as I say, if done at a higher speed and in a low brake step you would be hard pressed to know if a brake test has or has not been done...

 

[scott118]

I also cannot find, nor am I aware of any rulebook instruction that states a running brake test must be carried out after an attachment. So if a Driver doesn't carry one out then I have no issue.

If a unit has been attached or detached, then it would be a 'new train formation', so i would be expected to carry out a RBT, to appreciate/recognise/understand the trains new braking capabilities, before my first booked stop. Where, was my choice. That was what my TOC expected from me, being a 'professional driver'..

 

[ComUtoR]

That was what my TOC expected from me, being a 'professional driver'..

100% agree. However it is not a rulebook specification (to my knowledge). The rulebook states that when working multiple units you should follow the TOC policy.

If that is your TOC policy then I would expect it to be followed. The old rules that specified when you had to do them were left in for freight but removed for passenger.

What we do as Professional Drivers goes beyond just what the rulebook lays out.

If an attachment takes place and the Driver doesn't carry out a RBT then I don't see any problems as its not required by rule and I'm not privy to local driving policies.

For us when attaching we have to carry out the brake continuity test. We split/attach in service all the time but we have no further requirement to do a running brake test. Again, its just local policy not rule book.

 

[PermitToTravel]

Every Friday the list of TSRs is published in the open data feed. I'm struggling to find any sites that show it in a human readable format, though - OpenTrainTimes used to be doesn't anymore. Interesting if you're into that sort of thing

 

[SPADTrap]

Interesting if you're into that sort of thing

All sorts out there

 

[Deepgreen]

Lol. So you arnt a driver but spend you hour use - don't understand what you have written! trying your hardest - it's not at all hard to do to look out the front and worry about things which don't concern you - why don't they concern me or anyone else; is there something to hide? so you can attempt to pick drivers up for things they have and havnt done? Wasn't doing that, as I made abundantly clear to begin with.

I stand by my post-as a PASSENGER on the train you have absolutely no way of knowing 100% what TSR/ESRs there are ahead and can see (and know) a mere fraction of what the driver does. Passengers who are experienced railway employees can also have good route and general railway knowledge, but the entire point of my question was based on a lack of knowledge about the rules in this specific area.

And as I say, if done at a higher speed and in a low brake step you would be hard pressed to know if a brake test has or has not been done...

The question has already been answered in any case, so I'm not going to prolong the paranoia of those who are seemingly programmed to get extremely defensive when any discussion is pursued about their roles. Closed from my point of view.

 

[A-driver]

The question has already been answered in any case, so I'm not going to prolong the paranoia of those who are seemingly programmed to get extremely defensive when any discussion is pursued about their roles. Closed from my point of view.

Well as I say, you can't possibly know for certain what you claim to as a passenger, regardless of railway experience. None of us can. I couldn't even sit in the front coach of a train I sign on a road I sign and say with 100% confidence if a driver had done something wrong. Like you are doing, it would just be a guess.

 

[Jamesb1974]

The question has already been answered in any case, so I'm not going to prolong the paranoia of those who are seemingly programmed to get extremely defensive when any discussion is pursued about their roles. Closed from my point of view.

Are you really surprised at the reaction you got? I mean, genuinely? For someone who claims to have done 36 years on the railway, you seem to lack any kind of respect towards your fellow railwaymen.

You asked a perfectly reasonable question regarding running brake tests. But to phrase it the way you did was asking for a reaction. You even highlighted specific areas in bold to emphasise what you thought was your correct analysis of the situation, then tried to back it up with the flimsiest of evidence.

 

[Minilad]

The old adage "A little knowledge is a dangerous thing" springs to mind

 

[cjmillsnun]

I'll give my view. I'm not a driver or indeed a railwayman. Therefore when I travel I have no idea what goes on up front apart from the few things I can see or hear. However that is not my concern. That's for the person in the cab. They are the one who needs to know.

 

[bb21]

Original question answered, hence thread closed.

Move along, people.