CAF rolling stock confirmed for Arriva

[northwichcat]

Just a rash thought - could the 333s go to Heathrow Connect thus releasing the 360s for C2C ?.

They can't leave Northern before July 2020, which was specified in the ITT.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I don't see the sense in sending an odd fleet of Desiros to C2C, they'd be better on LM or another existing user of them. The 5-car sets might work for the Trent Valley if reseated to 2+2 and given the 110mph mod.

 

[northwichcat]

I note they have power sockets, tables AND wi-fi !. No good for down here in London then - where we are to get by without most of those passenger comforts !. Next they will be boasting about how many seats they are getting.

EDIT:- Must say I never realised they had electricity up North .

Don't forget the number of new trains will be small in comparison to the number of 1980s Sprinters with Northern expected to get 150/1s from GWR and 156s and 158s from Scotrail, opposed to replacing them.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Don't forget the number of new trains will be small in comparison to the number of 1980s Sprinters with Northern expected to get 150/1s from GWR and 156s and 158s from Scotrail, opposed to replacing them.

The South of course has loads of Mk3-based EMUs to go with that

 

[andyb2706]

I agree with 1 but not so sure about 2. Depends whether the EMUs will get used on longer distance services.

My hunch is all these new DMUs will be to replace Pacers on the services they should not be doing. That leaves the 150s (etc ?) to continue to do the more rural services that the Pacers were originally intended for !.

The EMUs obviously have to replace 323s and quite possibly the 333s. Would make sense for Northern to let its few 321s and 322s go as these will be in demand elsewhere.

Incidentally the combination of DMUs and EMUs in one invitation to tender probably provided a large enough order for bidders to be bothered with the DMU part. So Northern shedding its 323s is probably a good thing.

Not all of the new DMU's are direct replacements for the 142's as some of the new DMU's are for use on the Northern Connect services along with the 158's. I think the actual replacements for the 142's will be from the cascade effect that the new DMU's have on the rest of the Northern fleet and the delivery of the 150's from GWR and 170's from Scotrail once these units come of lease from their current operators.

Sadly the EMU's are to replace the 323 units, but they are to work alongside the 333's in West Yorkshire so I have been led to believe.
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Don't forget the number of new trains will be small in comparison to the number of 1980s Sprinters with Northern expected to get 150/1s from GWR and 156s and 158s from Scotrail, opposed to replacing them.

I was under the impression that Scotrail was keeping their 156 and 158 units to work their branded "Scenic Lines" due to their large windows and that it was the 170's coming off lease and heading to Northern, which if is right may mean power sockets

 

[sprinterguy]

I was under the impression that Scotrail was keeping their 156 and 158 units to work their branded "Scenic Lines" due to their large windows and that it was the 170's coming off lease and heading to Northern, which if is right may mean power sockets

A small number, ten class 156s and eight class 158s, will be off lease with Scotrail from the end of 2018, as well as the 29 class 170s becoming available in the 2018 - 2019 period (on top of the five destined for Southern).

 

[northwichcat]

I was under the impression that Scotrail was keeping their 156 and 158 units to work their branded "Scenic Lines" due to their large windows and that it was the 170's coming off lease and heading to Northern, which if is right may mean power sockets

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=112840

 

[andyb2706]

A small number, ten class 156s and eight class 158s, will be off lease with Scotrail from the end of 2018, as well as the 29 class 170s becoming available in the 2018 - 2019 period (on top of the five destined for Southern).

Thanks for that, I hope Northern are able to swallow up all the surplus units from Soctrail.

Going back to the initial announcements that were made it has just struck me that they have said all to be in service by December 2018. So when is the first unit to be introduced!? Like on of the other contributors said it does seem a tight timeframe.

 

[northwichcat]

Thanks for that, I hope Northern are able to swallow up all the surplus units from Soctrail.

Going back to the initial announcements that were made it has just struck me that they have said all to be in service by December 2018. So when is the first unit to be introduced!? Like on of the other contributors said it does seem a tight timeframe.

I think the Northern ITT was based on 120 new diesel vehicles being required if Northern acquired all the diesel units released by FGW/GWR and Scotrail. They are getting 140 new diesel vehicles so will still need most of them but they may get away with not taking on the redundant GWR 153s.

 

[sprinterguy]

Going back to the initial announcements that were made it has just struck me that they have said all to be in service by December 2018. So when is the first unit to be introduced!?

Hmm, the "interactive timeline" released at the same time as the Northern franchise announcement gave the following timeframes for new Northern rolling stock entering service:

End of 2018: 92 new-build carriages enter service (same time as "Northern Connect" is launched on five routes)
End of 2019: 163 new-build carriages enter services, all Pacers removed, remaining seven "Northern Connect" services introduced
End of 2020: Final 26 new-build carriages enter service, making total of 281

 

[darloscott]

Thanks for that, I hope Northern are able to swallow up all the surplus units from Soctrail.

Going back to the initial announcements that were made it has just struck me that they have said all to be in service by December 2018. So when is the first unit to be introduced!? Like on of the other contributors said it does seem a tight timeframe.

I saw somewhere mentioned October 2018 for entry into service. So the whole fleet would be arriving within a 3 month timeframe.

 

[northwichcat]

Hmm, the "interactive timeline" released at the same time as the Northern franchise announcement gave the following timeframes for new Northern rolling stock entering service:

End of 2018: 92 new-build carriages enter service (same time as "Northern Connect" is launched on five routes)
End of 2019: 163 new-build carriages enter services, all Pacers removed, remaining seven "Northern Connect" services introduced
End of 2020: Final 26 new-build carriages enter service, making total of 281

Arriva's original press release never corresponded with DfT's timeline, they said all Pacers will be gone within 18 months of the franchise start date and DfT gave the latest possible 2019 date on the interactive timeline.
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Would 3 x 4 car EMU be enough on the Glossop line to run a 30 minute service during the day? Isn't it also a 20 minute peak time service?

Just looking at weekday mornings and 4 units would be required for the morning peak. They have tight turnaround times at Piccadilly though.

 

[F Great Eastern]

The Irish rail 29000 are CAF and are pretty much bullet proof, very reliable and not to bad comfort wise and built for commuter use but gets used on intercity services from time to time.

But like almost all Irish Rail trains apart from the 8100 DART class have chronic Passenger Information System problems.

 

[northwichcat]

Sorry, but that is rubbish. Leeds may have the newest, which are definitely not new any more. However, it's the Northwest that has had all of the capacity gains from the 319's and subsequent cascades, so you're getting the better deal! We'd rather have the extra capacity, any day.

As a result of North West electrification and subsequent cascades:
* An additional hourly Manchester to York service has been introduced.
* An hourly service has been extended from Todmorden (Yorkshire) to Blackburn (Lancashire)
* 2 car workings on North TPE services have ended

Of course those aren't of benefit to Yorkshire.

Don't forget in the early Northern Rail days West Yorkshire got pretty much all the extra capacity secured and Leeds also managed to secure the 5 x 322s, while in the North West DMUs under the wires had to be used due to not being able to secure more EMUs prior to the 319s.

 

[Iskra]

As a result of North West electrification and subsequent cascades:
* An additional hourly Manchester to York service has been introduced.
* An hourly service has been extended from Todmorden (Yorkshire) to Blackburn (Lancashire)
* 2 car workings on North TPE services have ended

Of course those aren't of benefit to Yorkshire.

Don't forget in the early Northern Rail days West Yorkshire got pretty much all the extra capacity secured and Leeds also managed to secure the 5 x 322s, while in the North West DMUs under the wires had to be used due to not being able to secure more EMUs prior to the 319s.

1) We're discussing Leeds, not Yorkshire.
2) You're really scraping the barrel with that lot; especially the Todmorden one
3) It's not me that's claiming to be hard done by. I'm just pointing out that it's the North West that has had more new stock, more cascaded stock, more additional Loco-Hauled Stock and is currently getting all the electrification in the North of England. Thus, complaining that Leeds got some 158's that date from the early 90's and 16 333's is ridiculous. Nothing you have said alters that conclusion.

Getting more 322's has had a negligible effect. They are usually sat at Skipton because we have more electric trains than routes to run them on...

 

[northwichcat]

1) We're discussing Leeds, not Yorkshire.
...
You're really scraping the barrel

Sorry I thought we were doing a proper fair comparison not a flawed one because your argument isn't valid. You said the North West has all the benefits but now say you're only want to talk about Leeds in comparison. The North West has over 10 times the population of Leeds and has more residents than the Yorkshire & Humber region. So proportionally if Leeds has received 5 additional 4 car EMUs, the North West as a whole should get 50 but only 20 have been received, so Leeds has done very well in comparison hasn't it?

complaining that Leeds got some 158's that date from the early 90's

I was referring to the c.35 extra 158s plus the extra centre cars which haven't been allocated to Neville Hill since 2004 not the 158/9s. 8 of them were transferred from the ex-FNW area for 'fleet consistency' in exchange for your grotty old 150/2s.

 

[Iskra]

Sorry I thought we were doing a proper fair comparison not a flawed one because your argument isn't valid. You said the North West has all the benefits but now say you're only want to talk about Leeds in comparison. The North West has over 10 times the population of Leeds and has more residents than the Yorkshire & Humber region. So proportionally if Leeds has received 5 additional 4 car EMUs, the North West as a whole should get 50 but only 20 have been received, so Leeds has done very well in comparison hasn't it?

The person I responded to, said Leeds. Twice.

I'm ignoring the claptrap you've posted there.

 

[northwichcat]

The person I responded to, said Leeds. Twice.

So why not compare Leeds with Manchester or Liverpool instead of arguing all the benefits are in the North West? Presumably the other poster has the sense to realise other Yorkshire cities like Sheffield have done really badly over the last 10 years compared to Leeds.

I'm ignoring the claptrap you've posted there.

Sorry I didn't realise Leeds residents paid 10 times the level of tax and fares that people in the North West pay.

 

[Mikey C]

So this will give CAF a UK compliant DMU. I wonder if they'll pick up orders from other operators with capacity shortfalls, such as Chiltern?

 

[Iskra]

So why not compare Leeds with Manchester or Liverpool instead of arguing all the benefits are in the North West? Presumably the other poster has the sense to realise other Yorkshire cities like Sheffield have done really badly over the last 10 years compared to Leeds.



Sorry I didn't realise Leeds residents paid 10 times the level of tax and fares that people in the North West pay.

The original poster used the terms 'Leeds' and 'North West'. I fail to see what is difficult to understand about that.

 

[northwichcat]

So this will give CAF a UK compliant DMU. I wonder if they'll pick up orders from other operators with capacity shortfalls, such as Chiltern?

Given Arriva own Chiltern and are expected to secure the 29 x 170s released by Scotrail surely it would make more sense for some more 170s to be converted to 168s with Northern getting additional DMUs of the same type they are already getting?

 

[Nymanic]

A few notes, based on a preliminary skim of the facts and musings so far:

Looking closely at the renders, I'm assuming a 23m design for all carriages. Notice how the car ends taper in width on the images, à la Class 323s, 333s and such.

These are likely to be 2+2 seated, with uniform configuration for the entire fleet. They'd be grossly under capacity (and over-specced?) for the non-Connect services lined up - I don't know how many fewer seats a 3-car would have compared to a 323, but it's likely significant.

If all the 3-car units went to Leeds, it would be ambitious at best to expect a dozen 4-car units to cater for the 17 outbound 323s, plus the Blackpool and Windermere turns. That'd be fun, eh?!

Still, I'm keen to hear more. Hopefully there are options in the contract in case of demand. I'm sure they'd be exercised. I also hope the design is refined in time - I'm fond of the CAF units in Northern Ireland and England, but this is another generation entirely. The render reminds me of a 387/379 with a dissonantly jagged, angry-looking front. Retrograde, if you ask me, although no doubt these units will prove themselves with performance, not raw aesthetics.

I shall muse further as more details are revealed over time.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Dare I say - who cares if the outside is pig-ugly if the interior is pleasant?

 

[northwichcat]

The original poster used the terms 'Leeds' and 'North West'. I fail to see what is difficult to understand about that.

I was responding to your claim of

it's the Northwest that has had all of the capacity gains from the 319's and subsequent cascades

Using the word 'all' instead of 'most' made it factually incorrect.

The other poster was referring to Leeds always getting the more modern stock and the North West getting the older stock.
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These are likely to be 2+2 seated, with uniform configuration for the entire fleet. They'd be grossly under capacity (and over-specced?) for the non-Connect services lined up - I don't know how many fewer seats a 3-car would have compared to a 323, but it's likely significant.

The 3 car 172s (which have 23m carriages and the larger accessible toilets) have 219 seats including tip up seats.

The 3 car 323s have 244 or 284 seats, the ones with 244 were supposed to be for Manchester Airport services but get used anywhere.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The 3 car 172s (which have 23m carriages and the larger accessible toilets) have 219 seats including tip up seats.

The 3 car 323s have 244 or 284 seats, the ones with 244 were supposed to be for Manchester Airport services but get used anywhere.

Albeit 219 more comfortable ones without the pointlessly narrow middle seat. Or do the denizens of Northernland like snuggling up? Us LM passengers don't; 350/1s and 350/3s are universally preferred despite the higher risk of standing.

 

[47802]

2 + 2 seems to be the default norm now to give more standing room, the West York's fleet could perhaps have a different seat config as they presumably wont be doing and Northern Connect services, but I guess the likelihood is they will all be the same spec.

 

[HSTEd]

Unless they are going to order enough to replace the entire Northern DMU fleet this might cause some operational compatiblity issues.

Will be interesting to see how many Pacers actually get axed by this though. What with the extreme shortages of stock.

 

[Bletchleyite]

2 + 2 seems to be the default norm now to give more standing room, the West York's fleet could perhaps have a different seat config as they presumably wont be doing and Northern Connect services, but I guess the likelihood is they will all be the same spec.

Even if they aren't, changing seats in a modern MU is not all that difficult. I agree they are likely to be the same, though.
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Unless they are going to order enough to replace the entire Northern DMU fleet this might cause some operational compatiblity issues.

If you keep them contained on specific services it won't cause any more issues than it causes LM to have Scharfenberg-coupled 172s, Tightlock-coupled EMUs, Scharfenberg EMUs and BSI DMUs, i.e. not really any at all.

 

[HSTEd]

If you keep them contained on specific services it won't cause any more issues than it causes LM to have Scharfenberg-coupled 172s, Tightlock-coupled EMUs, Scharfenberg EMUs and BSI DMUs, i.e. not really any at all.

Thus reducing effective stock availability as a result.
Newton Heath or similar Northern depots can currently send out any available DMUs in any required combination.

Placing artificial restrictions on this is inefficient.
The AAR model of a specific MU jumper format is the optimum really. [As far as I can tell the standard is still holding up after sixty years].

Especially as it wouldn't be very expensive at all to put Sprinter compatible couplings on them - but we all know that is never going to happen.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The AAR model of a specific MU jumper format is the optimum really. [As far as I can tell the standard is still holding up after sixty years]

A manual jumper? Hardly ideal. It reduces operational flexibility if drivers can't couple and uncouple stuff themselves at stations.
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Especially as it wouldn't be very expensive at all to put Sprinter compatible couplings on them - but we all know that is never going to happen.

It might be expensive to make them wire-compatible, though, particularly if they differ in braking systems - for one example, Voyagers use a traditional twin-pipe air-brake and thus would be very difficult to make compatible with a Westcode DMU. (They can, however, couple dead to Pendolinos or indeed pull a dead Pendolino because both have traditional air brakes).

And if they are mechanical transmission, which I think is quite likely, having one coupled to a hydraulic transmission unit might not do it any good.