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Suburban stock on long runs

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Taunton

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Taking the 0821 Paddington to Hereford yesterday, I was most surprised (not to mention squashed) to find it consisted of (and is apparently diagrammed for) a suburban dmu with 3+2 seating. Given that the journey time is 3 hours 20 minutes for the trip, is this something of a record for the use of inappropriate local service stock with such tight seating? Especially galling was to depart Paddington parallel to an IC125 which was heading empty for the sidings at Old Oak Common, and furthermore that only the highest-priced "anytime" tickets were available on it - quite apart from wasting line capacity on the supposedly-full fast lines as far as Didcot with a 90mph train mixed in with mostly 125mph services.
 
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yorkie

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... is this something of a record for the use of inappropriate local service stock with such tight seating? ...
By that do you only mean to include booked allocations? (ie, not including an unexpected swap to an unusual type of train due to disruption)
 

185143

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Theres a Penzance-Cardiff worked by a 150/1, around the 6 hour mark!
 

bb21

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The HST may be booked in for maintenance or diagrammed for a busy service later on. If sent to Hereford, it will probably be tied up for another eight hours.
 

HarleyDavidson

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There's also a lot more fuel to consider, also can the unit match the timings given and the linespeeds of the route?

If it matches those criteria, then there's no reason not to use a DMU.
 

jimm

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Taking the 0821 Paddington to Hereford yesterday, I was most surprised (not to mention squashed) to find it consisted of (and is apparently diagrammed for) a suburban dmu with 3+2 seating. Given that the journey time is 3 hours 20 minutes for the trip, is this something of a record for the use of inappropriate local service stock with such tight seating? Especially galling was to depart Paddington parallel to an IC125 which was heading empty for the sidings at Old Oak Common, and furthermore that only the highest-priced "anytime" tickets were available on it - quite apart from wasting line capacity on the supposedly-full fast lines as far as Didcot with a 90mph train mixed in with mostly 125mph services.

An HST was used on the 08.21 until last May but there are good reasons why it is now a Turbo.

1. The lack of passengers at that time of the day west of Oxford, which simply doesn't justify use of an HST. And a 180 can't be used either, as there aren't enough in the GWR fleet with the four diagrammed sets already in use elsewhere, plus the following point.

2. The 08.21 conveys a second Turbo set, locked out of use west of Oxford, which is dropped off at Worcester to form the 11.22 back to London, plugging what used to be a two-hour gap in the eastbound service from Worcestershire stations.

Also, if a Class 166 was working the service, as it is supposed to, then not all the seating is 3+2 (and that is all arranged in bays), with a declassified ex-1st class compartment with 2+2 seats at one end and 2+2 with tables in part of the centre car. There are worse trains to spend three hours plus on, never mind six on a 150/1...
 
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berneyarms

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You've obviously never been in Northern land with some of the ridiculously long runs they put 142s on- more than three hours! (Can anyone help me with specific routes?)
 

185143

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onlinespotting:2437850 said:
You've obviously never been in Northern land with some of the ridiculously long runs they put 142s on- more than three hours! (Can anyone help me with specific routes?)
Lincoln-Hull
Cumbrian Coast
Carlisle-Middlesborough
Leeds-Heysham
 

HMS Ark Royal

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Lincoln-Hull clocks up the longest pacer run at just three minutes longer then Middlesbrough-Carlisle...

In theory 2N45 1616 Nunthorpe to Carlisle is the longest pacer run by milage. I talked to Northern's twitter people about it and they confirmed this to be the case when asked.

By journey time that honour would go to 2C76 1625 Lincoln Central to Hull - a total journey time of 3 hours, 24 minutes

Can somebody tell me more about this 6 hour 150 ride?
 
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Trainfan344

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321's work the 17:02 stopper from Liverpool St to Norwich before forming a normal service in place of a 90+Mk3+DVT
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Lincoln-Hull clocks up the longest pacer run at just three minutes longer then Middlesbrough-Carlisle...

In theory 2N45 1616 Nunthorpe to Carlisle is the longest pacer run by milage. I talked to Northern's twitter people about it and they confirmed this to be the case when asked.

By journey time that honour would go to 2C76 1625 Lincoln Central to Hull - a total journey time of 3 hours, 24 minutes

Can somebody tell me more about this 6 hour 150 ride?

Looks like this is the working...

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/C53428/2016/01/21/advanced
 

dk1

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321's work the 17:02 stopper from Liverpool St to Norwich before forming a normal service in place of a 90+Mk3+DVT

It's not in place of a 90/DVT as the 19:30 wouldn't run if the 17:02 terminated Stowmarket as originally planned.
 

Bletchleyite

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350s in general or just the /2s? 350/2s on the Trent Valley are not good.

While /1s have a suburban door layout, it could be argued that the interior is definitely not suburban, being 2+2 with tables. /3s even less so, with (I think) 4 more tables than /1s per set.

The First Class is definitely suburban, though, and in my view less comfortable than the priority seats in Standard.
 

northwichcat

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350s on LM's London Euston-Birmingham New Street

Liverpool to Birmingham is worse (where there are some /2s as well) as LM provide the only direct services between Liverpool and Birmingham. Virgin provide 3tph between London and Birmingham so the only end to end travellers on the LM London to Birmingham are the people who want to travel for less than the Virgin fare. It's a reasonable expectation that if you travel on the budget service you get a lower standard of train.
 
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Bletchleyite

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Liverpool to Birmingham is worse (where there are some /2s as well) as LM provide the only direct services between Liverpool and Birmingham. Virgin provide 4tph between London and Birmingham so the only end to end travellers on the LM London to Birmingham are the people who want to travel for less than the Virgin fare. It's a reasonable expectation that if you travel on the budget service you get a lower standard of train.

Another thing of note is that on weekends and school holidays the Brum and Trent Valley services are largely populated by families and groups - which actually like the sets of 6 facing seats, which aren't a massive problem when 1 or 2 out of the 3 are kids.

That said, it's a real pity LM didn't order a homogeneous fleet. If /2s had been 2+2 and uprated to 110mph they'd have been fully interchangeable.
 

A0

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That said, it's a real pity LM didn't order a homogeneous fleet. If /2s had been 2+2 and uprated to 110mph they'd have been fully interchangeable.

Except you'd have lost about 100 seats per unit when compared to a 321. Which on busy commuter runs out of London would not have been popular.

As for upgrading to 110mph - I assume there's no reason that the 350/2s couldn't be upgraded if required? Wasn't it fairly basic modifications that allowed the /1s to be 110mph certified?
 

northwichcat

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While /1s have a suburban door layout, it could be argued that the interior is definitely not suburban, being 2+2 with tables. /3s even less so, with (I think) 4 more tables than /1s per set.

The First Class is definitely suburban, though, and in my view less comfortable than the priority seats in Standard.

First Class is really missing complimentary refreshments and wifi (although LM will be providing wifi on the 350s soon) but I think having internal doors separating the seating area and the external doors helps make it feel more like a long distance interior.
 

tbtc

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Whilst there are a few services a day from Lancaster to Carlisle up the coast, you'd be pretty desperate to use one all the way (rather than the relatively frequent 125mph service up the WCML).

Similarly, nobody is going to sit on a 153 all the way from Peterborough to Doncaster (via Lincoln), when there are HSTs/ 225s going up the ECML.

You might as well say that the London Underground is inappropriate for journeys between Upminster and central London (ignoring the faster National Rail services), or Manchester Metrolink is inappropriate for journeys between Eccles/ Rochdale/ Manchester Airport/ Ashton (etc) and central Manchester (ignoring the faster National Rail services)

You've obviously never been in Northern land with some of the ridiculously long runs they put 142s on- more than three hours! (Can anyone help me with specific routes?)

Lincoln-Hull

Lincoln-Hull clocks up the longest pacer run
<snip> </snip>
2C76 1625 Lincoln Central to Hull - a total journey time of 3 hours, 24 minutes

It's a through train for operational convenience, rather than any end-to-end passengers. The only people who'd use that service through Sheffield are those going from Worksop/ stations in "south Rotherham" (e.g. Kiveton) to Meadowhall - it's a SYPTE requirement to have some through service.

Lincoln to Hull is going to be significantly faster via Doncaster (even via Retford and Doncaster) - this service is a "slow" from Sheffield to Doncaster and from Doncaster to Hull - so you'd have to be a particular type of enthusiast to spent three and a half hours on a 142...

See it instead as a peak-extension of a Sheffield - Doncaster stopper (to Hull) - providing additional capacity rather than replacing the regular 158s on Hull trips.

321's work the 17:02 stopper from Liverpool St to Norwich before forming a normal service in place of a 90+Mk3+DVT

I thought that this was the extension of a London - Ipswich path (to Norwich), i.e. it's not instead of a 90, it's additional?

350s on LM's London Euston-Birmingham New Street

While /1s have a suburban door layout, it could be argued that the interior is definitely not suburban, being 2+2 with tables. /3s even less so, with (I think) 4 more tables than /1s per set

I don't understand the pigeon-holing that some people have about "suburban" and "Inter City" - if it's a 110mph train with 2+2 seating (and air conditioning IIRC?) then it's not restricted to trundling around suburbs on all-stops services.

A train/unit isn't just defined by the positions of its doors.

Liverpool to Birmingham is worse (where there are some /2s as well) as LM provide the only direct services between Liverpool and Birmingham. Virgin provide 4tph between London and Birmingham so the only end to end travellers on the LM London to Birmingham are the people who want to travel for less than the Virgin fare. It's a reasonable expectation that if you travel on the budget service you get a lower standard of train.

Agreed (though I'd quibble about a fourth VT service per hour?).

I've no problem with offering slower/ "inferior" trains on stoppers, where there is a faster "superior" alternative (and therefore most/all people on the slow service are going to be doing local journeys).

It's more of an issue on a line like Lincoln - Sheffield where there are likely to be a reasonable number of "through" passengers, but no faster alternative.
 

Bletchleyite

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First Class is really missing complimentary refreshments and wifi (although LM will be providing wifi on the 350s soon) but I think having internal doors separating the seating area and the external doors helps make it feel more like a long distance interior.

I don't give a monkey's about refreshments, but in a train where Standard is 2+2 I will not pay extra for First Class unless it is 2+1.
 

Bletchleyite

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Except you'd have lost about 100 seats per unit when compared to a 321. Which on busy commuter runs out of London would not have been popular.

You'd be surprised how many commuters prefer the "blue seats" - there was even a Twitter hashtag going around at one point where LM Twitter would look up the /1 diagrams and let people know.

But I think there is a split - on runs past Tring people won't sit in the middle seats unless it's with friends and vastly prefer the privacy of the larger number of airline seats in /1s and /3s, whereas on Tring runs they put up with them to get *a* seat.

Personally I will stand rather than sit in a middle seat of a 3. Unless you alternate male-female or some people on a row are children, they simply are not wide enough.

In any case it's not "100 seats per unit". A 350/1 has according to another thread 235 seats in both classes. A /2 has 267. That is a difference of 32 seats, or about 8 per vehicle. You only get near (but not over) 100 in a 12-car.

As for upgrading to 110mph - I assume there's no reason that the 350/2s couldn't be upgraded if required? Wasn't it fairly basic modifications that allowed the /1s to be 110mph certified?

I believe LM plan to do this.
 
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HMS Ark Royal

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Lincoln to Hull is going to be significantly faster via Doncaster (even via Retford and Doncaster) - this service is a "slow" from Sheffield to Doncaster and from Doncaster to Hull - so you'd have to be a particular type of enthusiast to spent three and a half hours on a 142...

Thats on my list to do this year
 

northwichcat

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I don't give a monkey's about refreshments, but in a train where Standard is 2+2 I will not pay extra for First Class unless it is 2+1.

If you don't know if a /1, /2 or /3 will show up how do you know if you are getting a train where standard is 2+2? You may think a train is booked as a /2 so 2+2 seating would be an improvement but then a /1 could turn up.
 
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Bletchleyite

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If you don't know if a /1, /2 or /3 will show up how do you know if you are getting a train where standard is 2+2? You may think a train is booked as a /2 so 2+2 seating would be an improvement but then a /1 could turn up.

For that precise reason I do not travel First Class on LM at all.

If it were certainly 2+1, I think I would start travelling First Class quite often.

Though the peak diagrams are *relatively* consistent in what you get.
 
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