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Goring Gap/AONBs and Electrification of the GWML

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swt_passenger

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Consult on a gold plated alternative that everyone agrees is a great solution, and get local authorities to demand the DfT pay for them to be retrofitted. Government of the day to decide they can't and won't pay. Problem solved.
 
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Philip Phlopp

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Surely given how far behind Network Rail are with this project they're not going to seriously consider ripping up those gantries which they've just installed?

I genuinely didn't think so, but it looks like it might actually be happening.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Consult on a gold plated alternative that everyone agrees is a great solution, and get local authorities to demand the DfT pay for them to be retrofitted. Government of the day to decide they can't and won't pay. Problem solved.

It might yet come to that, since the Goring residents can't legally force Network Rail to do anything, but the feeling is change might be afoot.

I've spoken to a few residents informally, and they're looking for compensation, much like HS2, for 'devaluation of property' and 'loss of amenity' which is undoubtedly what most of this is about.

It's a dangerous precedent to set in any case.

**** Off is what the people of Goring need to be told, in no uncertain terms. It's not what they're hearing from Network Rail people on the ground, who don't want to be lynched at public meetings.
 

Domh245

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I'm sure one of our members would be able to come up with a figure for the average cost to NR for a Headspan failure in terms of delay minutes, parts, and labour. Multiply this by the average failure rate for Headspans, and the expected life of the electrification, and this figure could be quoted as the minimum figure that Goring would have to produce in order to replace the current installation. (substitute headspan for whatever alternative they decide they want). Then double that figure to account for new parts, contract termination fees, and then add a few zeros to the end to account for the impact that it'd have on linespeeds and such like.

That would surely put them off?
 

Philip Phlopp

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I'm sure one of our members would be able to come up with a figure for the average cost to NR for a Headspan failure in terms of delay minutes, parts, and labour. Multiply this by the average failure rate for Headspans, and the expected life of the electrification, and this figure could be quoted as the minimum figure that Goring would have to produce in order to replace the current installation. (substitute headspan for whatever alternative they decide they want). Then double that figure to account for new parts, contract termination fees, and then add a few zeros to the end to account for the impact that it'd have on linespeeds and such like.

That would surely put them off?

They're not getting headspans, that's absolutely definite.

If they get anything, it'll be a tarted up version of the current portal making use of the current foundations. I'd bet on lattice portals as per WCML. They'll not like that either, but I really don't care anymore.
 

MarkRedon

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Bad news breaking:

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-berkshire-35321340

Network Rail has apologised for building large new gantries in an Area of Outstanding Natural Beauty without consulting nearby residents.

Installed near Goring Gap in the Chilterns, they are the latest step in the electrification of the Great Western Railway.

Residents have criticised the gantries for ruining the landscape.

The rail operator met with villagers on Thursday and promised a consultation on alternative designs.

I call this bad news, because it will set an extremely dangerous precedent even to consult– after the kit has been installed. This guarantees that almost any electrification scheme you can think of is open to expensive and time wasting debate. If Network Rail then agrees to replace the gantries with less obtrusive and less cost-effective or operationally effective kit, that opens the door for repeated further challenges and quite unnecessary replacement at any number of points across the network.
 

Philip Phlopp

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...that opens the door for repeated further challenges and quite unnecessary replacement at any number of points across the network.

Roger Ford is on the case, on that one. I hope the financial case he will put together will be enough to prevent Goring getting their own way on this, but I'm not that hopeful.
 

steverailer

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There's a running joke on the ground that we'll all see retirement before this job is completed, if the above happens then I think thats guarrenteed :D:D

A lot of the disputed area is ready for the knitting now, so there will be a significant cost in changing it now, plus the added delay.

If NWR are serious about this then they had better get a move on, its at a point where it is slightly possible to change without serious delays in the actual change (ie still be able to be done on mid week possesions and weekend for the boom). Get the knitting up and you'd struggle to change 1 location per Saturday night block and make it safe for train passage. You're looking at around 100 locations needing action.

Bloody madness, hey but more work for me lol :D:D
 

highdyke

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I've spoken to a few residents informally, and they're looking for compensation, much like HS2, for 'devaluation of property' and 'loss of amenity' which is undoubtedly what most of this is about.

Probably. This is why politicians tread water over the housing shortage in this country, the need for economic growth and votes in the shires. People want their cake and eat it.

The area is an ANOB, frankly NR messed up: Any development unsympathetic to the landscape is open to a legal challenge. Either way the tax payer will probably pick up the bill, passing the bill to the next generation. NR should have seen this coming, especially in light of HS2.
 

Oswyntail

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Wasn't the Durham Viaduct subjected to the same complaints? The difference was that BR took heed from early in the process, talked to the locals and convinced them the eventual slight redesign was a suitable compromise. That is the sort of expertise that was lost in privatisation. :roll: It is always easier and cheaper to work with people from the start.
 

radamfi

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Gantries don't permanently disfigure the countryside. They can be removed without trace once technology means that they are no longer required.
 

Philip Phlopp

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The area is an ANOB, frankly NR messed up: Any development unsympathetic to the landscape is open to a legal challenge.

It's very definitely not. The railway itself is specifically excepted and excluded from all the legislation which has established the AONBs and extended their protection.
 

fgwrich

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It's very definitely not. The railway itself is specifically excepted and excluded from all the legislation which has established the AONBs and extended their protection.

Indeed! It's a nice area yes, but frankly I've seen prettier and to this day I still can't see entirely what the problem is. Unfortunately it's NIMBYISM on a major scale and I to share the concern of the precedent that this may lead too.

Yes the OHLE isn't pretty, but frankly, for what it's intended to be it was never really going to be. It's functional, and will serve a purpose over aesthetics.
 

rebmcr

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If they get anything, it'll be a tarted up version of the current portal making use of the current foundations. I'd bet on lattice portals as per WCML.

After seeing the picture on the BBC article, my first thought was also that the horizontal support was a bit inelegant, and I did wonder whether a lattice design would be viable as a replacement.

What are the functional differences between the current design and a lattice? Also what's the current design called?
 

highdyke

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It's very definitely not. The railway itself is specifically excepted and excluded from all the legislation which has established the AONBs and extended their protection.

That isn't what many bodies involved with protection of the countryside say. NR are well aware they are open to legal challenge on this, this potentially would stop any work taking place in the affected area, which is why they are changing the design.

Nevertheless, it seems poor practice from an engineering point of view not to take visual intrusion into consideration in sensitive areas.

This further adds to the mismanagement of the project as a whole, with many basic errors being made. From locations of buried signalling cables (a well known BR WR practice) to poor design on the electrification factory train.

It is debatable if NR was a self funded private company, not backed by the tax payer, whether these errors would have been made.

No doubt this will form part of the current review into the structure of Network rail.
 

FenMan

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It's also sounding like someone in the NR legal department needs to grow a pair as opposed to providing obfuscation and waffle masked as "advice".*

*I work for a large organisation and have had my fill of young, qualified, but inexperienced, in-house lawyers who have the delusion they're paid by the hour. Despite losing the will to live listening to "on this hand, but, there again, on the other hand" tripe, I find calling their boss quickly solves these problems.
 
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Philip Phlopp

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That isn't what many bodies involved with protection of the countryside say. NR are well aware they are open to legal challenge on this, this potentially would stop any work taking place in the affected area, which is why they are changing the design.

If there was a realistic legal challenge, an injunction would have been filed by now. The tactic is to inconvenience the project into either discretionary payments or for the few who are genuinely concerned about views, to try and force what they think (mistakenly) is a better solution - headspans.

There was, until recently (it may still be there, but I've not seen it prominently) some slightly deceptive images on the Save Goring Gap site of the soon to be removed headspans out by Stockley Junction, as a representative image of what the residents want.

Nevertheless, it seems poor practice from an engineering point of view not to take visual intrusion into consideration in sensitive areas.

They're the least intrusive OLE system used in the UK - lower in overall height than Mark 1 or Mark 3 OLE, relatively low separation between contact and catenary, low amounts of small part steelwork, tidy tensioning arrangements and tidy tail wires (or rather a lack of). The only way you're going to get anything lower profile is to fit some sort of fake tree plastic cover (like they do with mobile masts) and I dread to think how complicated that would be with 25kV involved.

This further adds to the mismanagement of the project as a whole, with many basic errors being made. From locations of buried signalling cables (a well known BR WR practice) to poor design on the electrification factory train.

Buried cables aren't the problem per se, it's nobody now knowing where the cables are, and a long term attitude under late British Rail, all of Railtrack and early Network Rail where engineers were told don't both worrying about electrification, and later, bury cables to stop people stealing them.

We also weren't prepared for how fragile the cables were - vibration from piling, which hasn't presented issues with the smaller projects elsewhere, really killed the GWEP in the early days, because you didn't know if it was a broken cable you've just piled through or if it's one which has turned to dust but externally looks fine.

The factory train is crap, it might be working right now, but it's had long enough, just rubbish really. And it's woefully slow moving around in possessions.

It really would have been better hacking up some old Mark 2 stock, using some normal container flats for cement mixers and pile storage, and adding a Kirow/Movax piling setup into a train topped and tailed by a pair of Class 20s. It's working well in Scotland. DBSOs marshalled in the middle for staff facilities, stores and a driving position and you would have a piling and a wiring train capable of 75mph that can be coupled together to leave the possession.

It is debatable if NR was a self funded private company, not backed by the tax payer, whether these errors would have been made.

No doubt this will form part of the current review into the structure of Network rail.

The worst mistakes made on the network came about under Railtrack, they really weren't on top of their network. They were ostensibly a private company and they really couldn't hack it.

Railtrack are also the reason we're in this mess - privatisation was badly handled, and work BR should be doing on the network was put into making routes look good for the hand over to Railtrack - no TSRs on the WCML is the boast, but it left a catalogue of other maintenance to do, which Railtrack didn't really understand how to manage.

Railtrack then spent 8 years doing nothing really beneficial to the railway - what little they did do was way below what BR or NR could have achieved, so another huge amount of work was neglected, upgrades ignored, Network Rail have spent the best part of a decade since just trying to catch up, and we're still not there, not by a long stretch. There's probably 15 years in recent history (1990-2005) where things just were ignored and didn't get done properly, we're still paying for it today.

It's a hard slog - electrification is needed because of increasing passenger numbers and environmental considerations, it's complicated by those increasing passenger numbers happening around us day in, day out, the rush to do more basic repairs and upgrades years ago have come back to haunt everyone of us time again and time again.

I'd really hope GWep has hit rock bottom and is moving forward - piling and wiring data suggests that might be the case now, but there's always a nagging doubt that something botched and undocumented lies around the corner, waiting.
 

NSEFAN

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highdyke said:
This further adds to the mismanagement of the project as a whole, with many basic errors being made. From locations of buried signalling cables (a well known BR WR practice) to poor design on the electrification factory train.

It is debatable if NR was a self funded private company, not backed by the tax payer, whether these errors would have been made.

No doubt this will form part of the current review into the structure of Network rail.
This is exactly why NR shouldn't bend over backwards and replace brand new OLE structures with ones that are more in-keeping with the rustic feel of the village. If such a precedent is set then that adds massive doubt to NR's ability to get any further electrification done, as any area of land where house prices are high now has risk of delays because the locals throw their toys out of the pram (as they assume they "own" the view that comes with the house).

The long-term effect will be the government being "forced" to tear NR limb from limb, undoing all the efforts since the demise of Railtrack and throwing everything into chaos for another couple of decades, resulting in further confusion, fewer skilled workers to actually do the work required and costs escalating as consultancies and contractors have to be brought in. The last thing that NR needs right now is to be smashed to pieces again during the middle of a major electrification project.

Perhaps NR should have consulted more with the residents of the Goring gap: I suspect it wouldn't have changed the outcome but it would have perhaps at least let the residents feel that they'd had their say. However, that time has passed. Wasting time retro-fitting or modifying the OLE installed just diminishes any hope of getting the GWML electrification finished and weakens further NR's ability to get anything done.
 

deltic08

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If there was a realistic legal challenge, an injunction would have been filed by now. The tactic is to inconvenience the project into either discretionary payments or for the few who are genuinely concerned about views, to try and force what they think (mistakenly) is a better solution - headspans.

There was, until recently (it may still be there, but I've not seen it prominently) some slightly deceptive images on the Save Goring Gap site of the soon to be removed headspans out by Stockley Junction, as a representative image of what the residents want.



They're the least intrusive OLE system used in the UK - lower in overall height than Mark 1 or Mark 3 OLE, relatively low separation between contact and catenary, low amounts of small part steelwork, tidy tensioning arrangements and tidy tail wires (or rather a lack of). The only way you're going to get anything lower profile is to fit some sort of fake tree plastic cover (like they do with mobile masts) and I dread to think how complicated that would be with 25kV involved.



Buried cables aren't the problem per se, it's nobody now knowing where the cables are, and a long term attitude under late British Rail, all of Railtrack and early Network Rail where engineers were told don't both worrying about electrification, and later, bury cables to stop people stealing them.

We also weren't prepared for how fragile the cables were - vibration from piling, which hasn't presented issues with the smaller projects elsewhere, really killed the GWEP in the early days, because you didn't know if it was a broken cable you've just piled through or if it's one which has turned to dust but externally looks fine.

The factory train is crap, it might be working right now, but it's had long enough, just rubbish really. And it's woefully slow moving around in possessions.

It really would have been better hacking up some old Mark 2 stock, using some normal container flats for cement mixers and pile storage, and adding a Kirow/Movax piling setup into a train topped and tailed by a pair of Class 20s. It's working well in Scotland. DBSOs marshalled in the middle for staff facilities, stores and a driving position and you would have a piling and a wiring train capable of 75mph that can be coupled together to leave the possession.



The worst mistakes made on the network came about under Railtrack, they really weren't on top of their network. They were ostensibly a private company and they really couldn't hack it.

Railtrack are also the reason we're in this mess - privatisation was badly handled, and work BR should be doing on the network was put into making routes look good for the hand over to Railtrack - no TSRs on the WCML is the boast, but it left a catalogue of other maintenance to do, which Railtrack didn't really understand how to manage.

Railtrack then spent 8 years doing nothing really beneficial to the railway - what little they did do was way below what BR or NR could have achieved, so another huge amount of work was neglected, upgrades ignored, Network Rail have spent the best part of a decade since just trying to catch up, and we're still not there, not by a long stretch. There's probably 15 years in recent history (1990-2005) where things just were ignored and didn't get done properly, we're still paying for it today.

It's a hard slog - electrification is needed because of increasing passenger numbers and environmental considerations, it's complicated by those increasing passenger numbers happening around us day in, day out, the rush to do more basic repairs and upgrades years ago have come back to haunt everyone of us time again and time again.

I'd really hope GWep has hit rock bottom and is moving forward - piling and wiring data suggests that might be the case now, but there's always a nagging doubt that something botched and undocumented lies around the corner, waiting.

Well said and very true. Privatisation was/is a very expensive mistake setting us back for years to come.
 
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Trog

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Would it be possible to give the masts a quick and dirty spray over with paint army camouflage style, to break up their outlines. OK we know it will all flake off in a couple of years, but if it did that a bit at a time and was replaced by dirt as it happened it would avoid having big shiny gantries hanging in the sky. It would show willing and allow the NIMBY's to crawl back under their rocks feeling they had made their point, and might not cost anymore than loads of meetings generating nothing but hot air.
 

Who Cares

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I genuinely didn't think so, but it looks like it might actually be happening.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---



**** Off is what the people of Goring need to be told, in no uncertain terms. It's not what they're hearing from Network Rail people on the ground, who don't want to be lynched at public meetings.


What a polite, adult response !! Maybe to you too,, sir....

And to those of you here cringing about the potential for further delays and costs in having to replace all the already installed OLE, if NR had actually consulted from the beginning as they promised, then there could have been some compromise on both sides and no need for this thread....

But with this type of attitude from NR management....

And absolute bullsh*t about trying to blackmail NR into compensation / discretionary payments - that is really below the belt !!
 
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Philip Phlopp

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And to those of you here cringing about the potential for further delays and costs in having to replace all the already installed OLE, if NR had actually consulted from the beginning as they promised, then there could have been some compromise on both sides and no need for this thread....

Network Rail DO NOT have to consult, you're really struggling to understand that. Railway undertakings are specifically excepted from AONB legislation, and the right to maintenance and upgrade of the Great Western Railway is enshrined in legislation three times older than the legislation which established the National Park and Area of Outstanding Natural Beauty framework.

I can also only repeat what I've been asked and told about demands for compensatory payments. If I remember correctly, you're not actually in Goring, are you being fed the full information by those you're campaigning for ?
 

absolutelymilk

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No, they don't. But I would suggest that the act of consultation itself might have drawn the sting from the local response.

The problem is if you consult, and 99% of people who respond are against putting up portals, and you then go and do it anyway because there isn't a better alternative, then people will be annoyed that you ignored their views. NR can't really win in this situation.
 

Hellzapoppin

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With regards to buried cables,it should be remembered that if the resignalling schemes were on time the buried cables would have been redundant when piling started, however that wasn't the case and the controls in place weren't robust enough to prevent a strike occurring. The location where the cables were originally installed is known but those locations are based on where the track alignment was at the time.
 

455driver

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That isn't what many bodies involved with protection of the countryside say. NR are well aware they are open to legal challenge on this, this potentially would stop any work taking place in the affected area, which is why they are changing the design.

Are they?
Where does it say that?

They have said they will look at alternative designs, that isn't the same thing at all.

As somebody else has stated, I think NR should tell them to eff off, it isn't Natural beauty at all because a railway, some roads and lots of houses etc have been built in the area, okay its quite nice but so are lots of other areas, properly Natural or otherwise!
 

Oswyntail

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The problem is if you consult, and 99% of people who respond are against putting up portals, and you then go and do it anyway because there isn't a better alternative, then people will be annoyed that you ignored their views. NR can't really win in this situation.
That is possible. But people can be managed, and it is a lot more cost-effective and time-efficient than hacking people off. It's like saying "please" - fairly meaninless but tends to break down barriers.
 

Who Cares

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PHILIP...

You are repeating yourself ad nauseum….

Statutory Planning Consent and Authorisations ? Not required…..

Statutory requirement to consult ? Possibly....But let's wait and see - I tend to believe the AsONB position on this rather than the armchair legal experts on here....

http://www.savegoringgap.org.uk/upl...state_for_transport_from_aonbs_9_dec_2015.pdf

By the way….The white house in the top right hand corner of the final picture is Grade 2 listed – it now has OLE installed less than 12 meters from its windows and a NR maintenance site and relay station ( or whatever you railway electro wizards call it ) on what was previously farmland, and all visible through the house’s windows….No Planning Consent required, of course….No consultation….No mitigation…It was designed by Brunel and occupied by Brunel during the construction of the GWR….Well done NR !!

Promise by NR to consult before construction started ? Absolutely....

Consultation undertaken before construction started ? Absolutely not….

Possibility to change already installed OLE ? Up to NR and / or the courts.... Compromise is required from both sides, but until NR make their proposals, how can either party start to compromise....By the way, NR again failed to make any proposals at the meeting held earlier this week, despite assurances at the last meeting in October that they would do so at the following meeting....Breaking promises and failing to live up to assurances is getting to be a habit ( or an ongoing deliberate tactic ) of NR….

Reason for no injunction to date ? Letter sent to NR from specialist environmental lawyers late December….The purpose is to avoid further delay and the expense of further court action…..Response from NR still being prepared, I'm told....

Demands for compensation ? You say you have spoken to some residents informally….I simply don’t believe you !! Why would you do that ? How would you do that ? Why should you do it informally ? Unless, that is, you are on the NR team which meets with the AsONB and residents, and in which case I’m sure that you will be identified personally and appropriate representations will be made to McLoughlin and Carne that the team representing NR in further meetings and consultation are unlikely to be negotiating with integrity and in good faith….Personal compensation is not and never has been on the agenda of the AsONB - that I can guarantee....If certain individuals have, indeed, asked for compensatory payments, as you say, I know nothing about these requests or the individuals but shame on anyone who might have done so !!

Other interest parties ? Question asked in the commons by the Henley MP, who actually lives in Henley, 15+ miles from the Goring Gap and is most certainly not a NIMBY, re NR's conduct in this project in the Goring Gap and a request for a debate.....Reply from Chris Grayling, Leader of the House of Commons which neither rules-in nor rules-out further parliamentary debate, but which just might shake NR management out of their ‘ should be told to f**k off attitude....

http://www.savegoringgap.org.uk/news.html

Since this new thread was created by the mods, I try to keep my posts on here to accurate facts, not personal opinions….

However, your latest couple of posts leave me in despair – the morals and ethics of NR’s Management ( or would it be more accurate to call it mismanagement ) associated with this Project are lower than a snake’s bolleaux and I now have nothing but utter and complete contempt for NR and its tax-payer funded and bonused-for-failure Mismanagers….
 

Domh245

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Looking at this letter, it seems that there are a lot of if's involved.

We also confirm that should the outcome of the design options and the public consultation highlight that Network Rail should undertake retrospective works as are necessary subject to costs and the agreements of our funders. Such works may result in the disruption of the operational railway, and so we are unable to commit to a timescale at this point, but we will continue to engage with your organisations throughout the design and consultation stages.

So, not only does the consultation have to suggest that there should be works, which I imagine would have to involve a number of factors such as overwhelming local support and a viable alternative, but NR would also have to convince the treasury to give it some more money to throw at it. Even if NR can come up with an alternative, they would be very hard pressed to get it installed, unless it costs about as much as NR can find down the back of the proverbial sofa.
 
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