London Bridge reconstruction works

[ijmad]

'Pass' is also short for passenger though?

Interesting that the signal numbering on the opentraintimes live running diagram is sequential through P9 and the 'extra' numbering is through P8. That suggests to me either that P9 was the Up Charing Cross at some stage of the design, as that would be the normal numbering logic, but it's all a bit academic given the way the station will operate normally.

Will trains during the peak just alternate so each can have a higher dwell time?

 

[carriageline]

Will trains during the peak just alternate so each can have a higher dwell time?

I believe that is the plan, in both AM and PM peaks for the appropriate direction.

 

[Bald Rick]

So by design London Bridge bound passengers using through trains need to be in the middle of the train, leaving the front for those heading to Cannon St or Charing Cross... Maybe.

Absolutely correct.

 

[ijmad]

Absolutely correct.

Also right by where first class often is in 8 or 12 car formations.


I'm sure that's just coincidence though

 

[FOH]

So, standing at a very cold platform 15 this evening (which will presumably be even colder when the platform narrowing hoardings eventually get removed) I noticed some metal supports above the tracks over the length of the 4 carriages closest to the cattle pen. Do you think that these are supports for a future roof to be put in? I really hope so as the station is is currently a miserably cold, pigeon infested hole.

 

[tsr]

So, standing at a very cold platform 15 this evening (which will presumably be even colder when the platform narrowing hoardings eventually get removed) I noticed some metal supports above the tracks over the length of the 4 carriages closest to the cattle pen. Do you think that these are supports for a future roof to be put in? I really hope so as the station is is currently a miserably cold, pigeon infested hole.

I'm pretty sure this has been mentioned before, but in case it hasn't (maybe not on this thread), the answer is no. Primarily, any roof would trap diesel exhaust from 171s and set off the fire alarms (which we don't want - note: last Friday). It would potentially also cause problems by creating more of a tunnel for the wind than there is now, and I have even heard it mooted that the artificial air currents around the Shard could lead to any extra roofing being damaged without additional fixtures and supports.

As I understand it, the metal supports you mention are for architectural interest only and serve no functional purpose at present. I'm sure they could be used for lightweight lighting installations or suchlike if there was demand in future, but nothing more substantial.

When passengers are able to wait elsewhere in the station on the new concourse, I should imagine the Platform 15 crowd control will only be needed during exceptional traffic levels such as major disruption, and as such most passengers hopefully won't need to wait right by the exposed open-air parts of the station.

 

[Bald Rick]

So, standing at a very cold platform 15 this evening (which will presumably be even colder when the platform narrowing hoardings eventually get removed) I noticed some metal supports above the tracks over the length of the 4 carriages closest to the cattle pen. Do you think that these are supports for a future roof to be put in? I really hope so as the station is is currently a miserably cold, pigeon infested hole.

They've been there since it opened. It is a feature required by the planning authority and serves no structural purpose.

When the hoardings get removed, the sides are still closed off to the elements, so in theory it will be a slightly nicer place to wait. Albei nowhere near as nice as downstairs.

 

[FOH]

Thanks for the quick response. I wasn't actually in the cattle pen, just standing along the platform. I understand about diesels but if you think about it, Paddington, Euston, Kings Cross and Marylebone all have roofs and diesel engines so it must be something else.

Maybe it's just me but,I feel it's really really cold with wind whistling right through the concourse as well. It never used to be like that.

Edit
Just saw response from Bald Rick. Sorry, I don't often use Platform 15 and hadn't noticed them before. I doubt the downstairs argument as I was waiting on an advertised platform not on the concourse so it wouldn't make any difference which concourse I started from.

 

[ijmad]

I would guess partly, the new station design with individual roofs for each platform has been influenced by how the transformation is being done, i.e. platform by platform.

I imagine there'd been to be a substantial closure/blockade needed to fit a large roof over all the platforms once the entire station is finished (after 4-5 years of disruption!), so they just didn't put one in the design.

I agree with other posters that most waiting will be done in the lower concourse after August, although we'll be enjoying a chilly walk down St Thomas St to the tube until the Western Arcade reopens.

 

[hwl]

I would guess partly, the new station design with individual roofs for each platform has been influenced by how the transformation is being done, i.e. platform by platform.

I imagine there'd been to be a substantial closure/blockade needed to fit a large roof over all the platforms once the entire station is finished (after 4-5 years of disruption!), so they just didn't put one in the design.

I agree with other posters that most waiting will be done in the lower concourse after August, although we'll be enjoying a chilly walk down St Thomas St to the tube until the Western Arcade reopens.

I think the aim is to have at least a partial width of the Western arcade open all the times (at least during the week?). The existing shops will be going so it will be a lot wider overall eventually.

There is already a route clear to both sides of the escalator bank and the area at the top of the escalators has already been removed and temporary easy to remove steel deck fitted to allow work to go on in the mean time.

Roof glazing - The issue was how to clean the glass apparently so there wasn't any in the end...

 

[ijmad]

I think the aim is to have at least a partial width of the Western arcade open all the times (at least during the week?). The existing shops will be going so it will be a lot wider overall eventually.

There is already a route clear to both sides of the escalator bank and the area at the top of the escalators has already been removed and temporary easy to remove steel deck fitted to allow work to go on in the mean time.

Roof glazing - The issue was how to clean the glass apparently so there wasn't any in the end...

Have a look at Page 88 of the KO2 doc - seems to indicate that the Western Arcade will be closed when the lower concourse initially opens. Is that no-longer the plan or have you seen other conflicting info?

Screen grab attached for good luck.

 

[hwl]

Have a look at Page 88 of the KO2 doc - seems to indicate that the Western Arcade will be closed when the lower concourse initially opens. Is that no-longer the plan or have you seen other conflicting info?

Screen grab attached for good luck.

They were certainly looking to see if they could try to keep it partially open at one point last year... (i.e. a year after that presentation)

 

[ijmad]

They were certainly looking to see if they could try to keep it partially open at one point last year... (i.e. a year after that presentation)

That's good!

 

[GodAtum]

Thanks for the quick response. I wasn't actually in the cattle pen, just standing along the platform. I understand about diesels but if you think about it, Paddington, Euston, Kings Cross and Marylebone all have roofs and diesel engines so it must be something else.

Maybe it's just me but,I feel it's really really cold with wind whistling right through the concourse as well. It never used to be like that.

Edit
Just saw response from Bald Rick. Sorry, I don't often use Platform 15 and hadn't noticed them before. I doubt the downstairs argument as I was waiting on an advertised platform not on the concourse so it wouldn't make any difference which concourse I started from.

It's a huge shame as Victoria, Euston and Paddington are such a nice stations to wait at. London Bridge now seems like a backwater station where country-folk have to brave the weather

 

[FOH]

It's a huge shame as Victoria, Euston and Paddington are such a nice stations to wait at. London Bridge now seems like a backwater station where country-folk have to brave the weather

I challenge anyone to come up with a colder London terminus concourse to stand in this evening!

 

[amarshe]

When will platform 15 be widened? When St Thomas St entrance opens in the summer?

 

[ijmad]

When will platform 15 be widened? When St Thomas St entrance opens in the summer?

Things change in August when the lower concourse opens, however maybe not quite in the way most people think from reading the signs that say the platform is only temporarily narrow. It's a little white lie.

P15 is already plenty wide east (country end) of hoardings around what will be the stairs/escalators void down to the lower concourse, the problem is the rather narrow (two person width) bit which runs past where the stairs will be.

There is a bit of extra space west of the stair vault to be revealed when the hoardings come down, but the narrow bit will remain about as narrow as it is now.

But things will improve because right now everyone has to pass this area as everyone uses the upper concourse gateline, hence it's very congested, hence the cattle pen. When the lower concourse opens they expect most people to use the new stairs and go straight down there so it won't be a problem as this narrow area will only be responsible for about 1 carriage-worth of people stepping on/off the train and a few people passing to get the bus.

At least that's what I've gathered...

 

[amarshe]

Thanks that's very helpful. So it will probably still take 5 minutes to get out of the station as everyone swirls around the stairs/escalators!

 

[hwl]

Things change in August when the lower concourse opens, however maybe not quite in the way most people think from reading the signs that say the platform is only temporarily narrow. It's a little white lie.

P15 is already plenty wide east (country end) of hoardings around what will be the stairs/escalators void down to the lower concourse, the problem is the rather narrow (two person width) bit which runs past where the stairs will be.

There is a bit of extra space west of the stair vault to be revealed when the hoardings come down, but the narrow bit will remain about as narrow as it is now.

But things will improve because right now everyone has to pass this area as everyone uses the upper concourse gateline, hence it's very congested, hence the cattle pen. When the lower concourse opens they expect most people to use the new stairs and go straight down there so it won't be a problem as this narrow area will only be responsible for about 1 carriage-worth of people stepping on/off the train and a few people passing to get the bus.

At least that's what I've gathered...

Looking at where people go when they leave P15 I'm not so sure huge numbers will use the escalator to the lower concourse, huge numbers walk across the bridge to the city so the existing concourse is still be well used in the future.

I'd expect most but not all the hoardings to go in August (or in the case of P15 some probably a bit before that as the external wall / arches are completed and the station ops staff move into the new office above the ticket hall in the area below P15-12 escalator area in May)

The current hoardings narrow point is actually nearer the buffers than the escalator rather than the escalator area, the real bottle neck being the right hand turn in front of the cattle pen (especially with staff standing in less than ideal places). My worry is that not all the hoardings will come down in August as I suspect a few bits near the shard will remain which might necessitate the retention of the cattle pen in some form. The arch nearest the shard under the pen is the last to be finished which isn't idea from a passenger point of view.


If everything is finished before the end of August it might make some sense to selectively open the lower concourse a week or 2 early for the terminating platform users so some of them get used to the new layout before the first monday morning when you have all the Charing Cross through platform users as well.

 

[QueensCurve]

Just hope out of all the retail outlets that there is a place that sells a sausage roll for less than £3.49!!!

Oh, and that an AMT coffee remains rather than a Nero.

You'll be lucky. Most likely you will get a Star*ucks.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

If you are interested then Open Train Times has a good (although not quite perfect) signalling diagram of the area reconstructed from Network Rail's open data, link here.

That diagram implies that Blackfriars is presently disconnected from everthing except the Met Reversible to Cannon St. Is that true?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

How many of the people who walk across London Bridge are Southeastern passengers out of interest? I'd have thought many of them would board CST services and terminate in the City itself, as I do.

Quite a lot which is why when London Bridge itself was rebuilt a wide walkway was provided on the East side.

 

[jon0844]

I think I've seen a version of that image with all the same station details but different people!

A few more ethnicities perhaps?!

 

[QueensCurve]

Thanks for the quick response. I wasn't actually in the cattle pen, just standing along the platform. I understand about diesels but if you think about it, Paddington, Euston, Kings Cross and Marylebone all have roofs and diesel engines so it must be something else.

Off topid for this thread, but Euston was an electric only station from rebuilding in the 1960s to the mid '80s. Oh happy days.

 

[snowball]

A few more ethnicities perhaps?!

The difference I actually noticed was an attractive woman or two in the previous version, but you're right, that render, like a few others I've seen in planning documents, is implausibly white

 

[swt_passenger]

That diagram implies that Blackfriars is presently disconnected from everthing except the Met Reversible to Cannon St. Is that true?

That is how it is shown in the Stage 2A staging plans following the switch to the new Borough Viaduct. The single lead connection was removed during the recent block, presumably because the previous up and down Charing Cross lines will be (or have already been) lifted for work on the old viaduct.

If you look at the OTT signalling diagram the future double junction with the lines to Blackfriars will be in that gap above signal number 2015 and 2017. There are two stub black lines immediately above signal 2015 that will line up with the Thameslink pair of tracks through platforms 4 and 5 using the old viaduct.

 

[ijmad]

That diagram implies that Blackfriars is presently disconnected from everthing except the Met Reversible to Cannon St. Is that true?

Well, that and Elephant

Anyone know if the British Transport Film depicting the work done to London Bridge in the 1970s is available online (legally!) anywhere? It's this one I think.

 

[urpert]

That diagram implies that Blackfriars is presently disconnected from everthing except the Met Reversible to Cannon St. Is that true?.

That's certainly the way it looked when I passed through today.

 

[Tangent]

It's a huge shame as Victoria, Euston and Paddington are such a nice stations to wait at. London Bridge now seems like a backwater station where country-folk have to brave the weather

I think London Bridge is being classed as Blackfriars and Cannon Street are: the type of station geared to peak-hour commuters who aren't going to linger on their way home or to the office, rather than people who might hang around the station, like tourists or leisure passengers.

 

[QueensCurve]

That is how it is shown in the Stage 2A staging plans following the switch to the new Borough Viaduct. The single lead connection was removed during the recent block, presumably because the previous up and down Charing Cross lines will be (or have already been) lifted for work on the old viaduct.

If you look at the OTT signalling diagram the future double junction with the lines to Blackfriars will be in that gap above signal number 2015 and 2017. There are two stub black lines immediately above signal 2015 that will line up with the Thameslink pair of tracks through platforms 4 and 5 using the old viaduct.

So is Blackfriars connected directly to London Bridge at the moment?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Well, that and Elephant

Anyone know if the British Transport Film depicting the work done to London Bridge in the 1970s is available online (legally!) anywhere? It's this one I think.

I forgot about the Heliphant and Carstle.

Re the BTF do you mean the 1976 production "Operation London Bridge"?

 

[swt_passenger]

So is Blackfriars connected directly to London Bridge at the moment?

All I can offer is that the junction shouldn't be connected any longer according to the publicly available track work stage plan. Someone else has reported that it looks to be removed, and I know from an earlier video that the original Charing Cross tracks are cut adjacent to the Market Porter pub, so even if the physical junction points remained there's no onward route.

 

[urpert]

I think London Bridge is being classed as Blackfriars and Cannon Street are: the type of station geared to peak-hour commuters who aren't going to linger on their way home or to the office, rather than people who might hang around the station, like tourists or leisure passengers.

Blackfriars is shocking - after the tiny Smiths closes there's nowhere to get a drink, not even a vending machine.