Multinational bidder list for Merseyrail stock

[northwichcat]

Transport authority Merseytravel announced the five shortlisted bidders for a contract to supply around 50 new electric multiple-units for the Merseyrail suburban network centred on Liverpool on January 11:

• Bombardier;
• CAF;
• Mitsui in a consortium with Alstom and East Japan Railway’s rolling stock manufacturing business J-Trec;
• Siemens;
• Stadler.

Tender documents are scheduled to be released on January 22, with bids to be submitted by the end of April. A preferred bidder is expected to be chosen towards the end of 2016, and the new EMUs would be delivered by the early 2020s.

The overall cost is estimated at around £400m, including upgrading power supplies and infrastructure improvements at stations and depots. Merseytravel said the trains would be financed using ‘a variety of funding mechanisms’, including a reserve which has already been already established. There would be no additional costs to local taxpayers, with the investment to be recovered over the operational life of the EMUs by leasing them to the operating concessionaire.

http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/...n-merseyrail-train-replacement-shortlist.html

So rumours about Stadler wanting to get in to the UK market were true. I wonder if the Japanese bidders have joined up with Alstom because they have experience of building UK trains.

 

[Camden]

Bit of a non announcement with a list like that.

"Trains will be built by one of the World's few train builders".

 

[Domh245]

Bit of a non announcement with a list like that.

"Trains will be built by one of the World's few train builders".

Not Really. For a start, Hitachi aren't on the list. Is that because they are full to capacity at Newton Aycliffe and Pistoia are full to capacity building IEPs and AT300 derivatives, or because their AT100 product isn't up to scratch yet.

CAF have put in a bid, they evidently want to try and make inroads into the UK market outside of trams and the existing 332/333s

Mitsui - that is the really interesting bid. A bit of research suggests that they are a leasing company when it comes to rail, so who was the lead in this bid? Alstom, they would have likely entered by themselves if they really wanted it. J-Trec, possibly some kind of attempt to steal Hitachi's share of the market?

Stadler - Again someone keen to try and enter the uk market outside of trams. Possibly evidence that they haven't landed a contract with (new) Northern.

Bombardier and Siemens should come as no surprise, but it is very pleasing to see other companies bidding outside of the current big 3 of Hitachi, Bombardier, and Siemens.

 

[WatcherZero]

Mitsui likely a J-Trec product with Alstom in a advisory/consultancy role, helping them comply with legislation and gaining UK certification.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Stadler is a particularly interesting one - could they come up with something unconventional, like an articulated FLIRT derivative?

 

[urpert]

Stadler is a particularly interesting one - could they come up with something unconventional, like an articulated FLIRT derivative?

I'd be surprised. I remember the conversations on uk.railway when the SWT Desiro order was announced (before it turned out to be more of the same bog-standard Son Of Networker UK EMU).

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Is it possible Alstom has gone to Japan because on their own they only have an articulated metro offer (X'trapolis)?
NR doesn't like articulation, which basically eliminated Alstom's Thameslink bid for that reason.

 

[Mikey C]

Will that new Alstom facility in Widnes be involved? Handily local!

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=123755&highlight=alstom

 

[jopsuk]

The tender documents will give a good insight into what to expect- though as Bombardier proved with Crossrail a little outside of the box thinking (in that case, 9 three-door carriages rather than 10 2-door, as was broadly assumed to be the desired layout) can, if well thought out, be a winner

 

[hwl]

Mitsui happen to own a big japanese investment bank (one of Japanese big 3) with a very large infrastructure finance department (lending for everything from Oil refineries to toll motorways). They have a long history in rolling stock financing / ROSCO in many countries outside the UK with Bombardier, Siemens, EMD, Vossloh etc.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Mitsui happen to own a big japanese investment bank (one of Japanese big 3) with a very large infrastructure finance department (lending for everything from Oil refineries to toll motorways). They have a long history in rolling stock financing / ROSCO in many countries outside the UK with Bombardier, Siemens, EMD, Vossloh etc.

Mitsui has a stake in the financing for Scotrail's AT200s.
Caledonian Rail Leasing, the financial vehicle being used, includes SMBC (Sumitomo Mitsui Banking Corp).

 

[northwichcat]

CAF have put in a bid, they evidently want to try and make inroads into the UK market outside of trams and the existing 332/333s
...
Stadler - Again someone keen to try and enter the uk market outside of trams. Possibly evidence that they haven't landed a contract with (new) Northern.

Both CAF and Stadler are rumoured to have offered products to Northern bidders but them being interested in offering products for Merseyrail doesn't automatically mean they've been unsuccessful for Northern. Hopefully production will be underway on the Northern products before the Merseyrail winner is announced and then it's not a tight timescale to get the new trains in to service.

 

[Camden]

How can that happen? Northern (or whoever buys the trains for Northern) will have to go through the same procurement process.

 

[fgwrich]

Well, Mitsui does have a rather successful history in offering new rolling stock - Over in Ireland, they supplied the rather nice (and I wish we had them over here!) 22000 fleet in partnership with Hyundai Rotem & Tokyu Car Corporation of Japan - now known as JTREC as well as many of the other IE Fleets in conjunction with JTREC / TCCJ.

The idea of a tie-up between Alstom / Mitsui & JTREC is an interesting one though, with Alstom likely to supply the traction, JTREC for the bogies and either Alstom or JTREC for the body. Rather unlike the situation in Ireland though where the Alstom DART units are so hated by IE that the 8200 class are all now in store.

 

[edwin_m]

Stadler are now responsible for the Sheffield tram-train, so they have some people on board with experience of the wonderful world of Network Rail. If Merseyrail are looking at something lighter than a classic train then Stadler ought to be amongst the favourites - although last I heard they were thinking of traditional railway rolling stock.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

How can that happen? Northern (or whoever buys the trains for Northern) will have to go through the same procurement process.

Not quite. Arriva as a private company (not part of UK government) can use a faster process, and will be well through arriving at preferred supplier(s).
Merseytravel has to use public (local government) procurement, and DfT has to use central government rules (as for IEP/Thameslink stock and franchises).
First Group used the private route for its AT300s.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Stadler have a track record of supplying bespoke solutions (or rather heavily customised ones) rather than offering largely off-the-shelf products from a current range (I'm looking at you, Siemens!) such as the metre-gauge 650v DC units supplied for the Cerdagne line in French Catalonia, so the unique characteristics of the central Liverpool tunnels could be addressed (<20m carriages for example) in that case. I've long advocated that something along the lines of S-stock would be a better fit than an off-the-shelf 20m EMU. CAF of course have not only the 332/333 on their cv but also the units supplied to Translink in Northern Ireland which I think have been pretty successful. Although in that case the track gauge is much wider than the mainland network, the loading gauge is broadly similar.

 

[swt_passenger]

Not quite. Arriva as a private company (not part of UK government) can use a faster process, and will be well though arriving at preferred supplier(s).
Merseytravel has to use public (local government) procurement, and DfT has to use central government rules (as for IEP/Thameslink stock and franchises).
First Group used the private route for its AT300s.

This point came up a few weeks ago after that long list of rolling stock requirements for future Stagecoach franchise bids came out, I noticed and posted here that a section of the OJEU notice calling for expressions of interest included an explanation that they were not a public body and certain EU procurement rules did not apply.

Have now found where this was discussed, I quoted the SWT OJEU notification in the thread about New Scotrail EMUs here:

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showpost.php?p=2393509&postcount=159

 

[jayiscupid]

I think it's time Network Rail conducted another study into articulated units.
Something akin to the German Br423 / 424 / 425 / 422 units (same as the Dutch NS SLT) would be perfect for Merseyrail. It's a 4 car articulated unit that's 67ft long so the shorter cars >20ft would suit the tunnels and their associated issues. It also gives wide gangways over the bogies and still allows for multiple operation.
That and the acceleration is superb and would knock valuable minutes off journeys across Merseyside.

 

[Camden]

Too late. Anyway I think compared to a tube train they seem a bit slow off the mark/slow pulling in/slow closing doors. "Metro stock" is I gather what is being asked for, which makes sense given the short distance between the stations.

 

[northwichcat]

How can that happen? Northern (or whoever buys the trains for Northern) will have to go through the same procurement process.

The bidders for Northern published OJEUs e.g. Abellio published this: https://www.publictenders.net/node/2859844

When the Scotrail franchise was awarded it was revealed there had been a bidding process already and Hitachi had already been selected as Abellio's preferred bidder before the franchise had been awarded.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Too late. Anyway I think compared to a tube train they seem a bit slow off the mark/slow pulling in/slow closing doors. "Metro stock" is I gather what is being asked for, which makes sense given the short distance between the stations.

But "metro stock" could mean any one of a number of things. Arguably a order of exactly what LO have from Bombardier would work, but that would be a substantial comfort decline given the almost-InterCity-standard 2+2 facing seating with good legroom that is presently provided. I just can't see such a heavy climbdown - though I could see a hybrid layout like the Met A stock being considered and can see the benefits of that.

There's definitely scope to take several minutes off a long run by fitting quicker moving doors and improving the acceleration.

 

[KB-UK]

Albeit the bid team is perhaps a bit of a novelty, the J-TREC bid has hidden strengths. Not least because the the Japanese manufacturer is part of one of the world's most successful railway companies - JR East. It's not clear yet what they will bring to the table but it could be very interesting.

 

[baldyman26]

Probably a stupid question but, with the different manufacturers bidding to build the trains, how will they look. Do Merseyrail get a basic carriage then have an input into the exterior design or will each manufacturer come back with their own ideas, or put another way - will the trains look like Merseyrail trains or will they be something radically different.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The 50x are to a BR standard design - the PEP concept. They have become very much associated with Merseyrail, but that's just their longevity.

It's the livery and interior (lots of yellow and grey no doubt) that will provide the association.

 

[swt_passenger]

Probably a stupid question but, with the different manufacturers bidding to build the trains, how will they look. Do Merseyrail get a basic carriage then have an input into the exterior design or will each manufacturer come back with their own ideas, or put another way - will the trains look like Merseyrail trains or will they be something radically different.

TOCs rarely specify a 'look', they ask for a length, a passenger capacity, door positions, gauging limitations, traction type, and then see what appears.

 

[jopsuk]

Never mind speculation, on the 22nd you'll get to see the full technical requirements.

 

[Camden]

But "metro stock" could mean any one of a number of things. Arguably a order of exactly what LO have from Bombardier would work, but that would be a substantial comfort decline given the almost-InterCity-standard 2+2 facing seating with good legroom that is presently provided. I just can't see such a heavy climbdown - though I could see a hybrid layout like the Met A stock being considered and can see the benefits of that.

There's definitely scope to take several minutes off a long run by fitting quicker moving doors and improving the acceleration.

I think you're confusing "metro stock" with seating layout. While seating is one thing that is likely to be involved in getting people on and off quickly, "metro stock" is about emphasis on speedy boarding, speed of door opening/closing, rapid acceleration and so forth. A regional 80mph EMU with plug doors, glliding into the platform and a one minute total wait before gliding out again, versus a metro 50mph EMU pelting into the platform, getting the doors shut within 15 seconds of arriving and pelting it out again the moment they're shut.

 

[Mikey C]

I think you're confusing "metro stock" with seating layout. While seating is one thing that is likely to be involved in getting people on and off quickly, "metro stock" is about emphasis on speedy boarding, speed of door opening/closing, rapid acceleration and so forth. A regional 80mph EMU with plug doors, glliding into the platform and a one minute total wait before gliding out again, versus a metro 50mph EMU pelting into the platform, getting the doors shut within 15 seconds of arriving and pelting it out again the moment they're shut.

One fascinating thing is whether Bombardier bid with an S stock derivative or a Class 710 Aventra derivative, as both could do the job

 

[Haydn1971]

One fascinating thing is whether Bombardier bid with an S stock derivative or a Class 710 Aventra derivative, as both could do the job

The S Stock is London Underground specific, the S Stock is built using the Movia family of parts, which are used on metros around the world. There is a possibility too, that their Innovia driverless kit could be offered, but that's perhaps a step too far for lines shared with other rail services.