Fined for being in first class carriage

[cottonsocks]

Hi
Please advise. My 20 year old son was travelling home today in a very busy carriage and stepped back to allow 2 pushchairs on. He was pushed back into a first class carriage as there was no room to stand in 2nd class. Suitcases were also blocking his path. A ticket inspector got on the train at the next stop when he was attempting to leave 1st class and go back into 2nd class as the pushchairs had got off. She wanted to fine him £20 on the spot but he didn't have £20 on him. He has a witness who said he only stepped into 1st class to allow the pushchairs on and hadn't been here for the whole journey.

The inspector gave him a slip of paper that said;
" If fail to carry , passenger to send a copy of their seasonal ticket within 14 days to the address below , failure to do so may lead to prosecution."

We are puzzled as he had a ticked (Not first class I understand) and he had his young persons railcard. He hasn't got a season ticket and doesn't need one. He still has the ticket for proof.
What happens now? Does he wait for a letter or will he have to go to court. He is upset and puzzled. He is happy to pay the fine anyway even though he thinks it unfair. Is there any way to do this now?
He is an honest lad who just got unlucky trying to be helpful. Thank you for any advice. :cry:

 

[34D]

If that is what the letter says, send a copy of the ticket and railcard and see what happens next.

 

[najaB]

What happens now? Does he wait for a letter or will he have to go to court. He is upset and puzzled. He is happy to pay the fine anyway even though he thinks it unfair. Is there any way to do this now?

It's highly unlikely it would go straight to court. Most train operating companies (TOCs) will settle matters like this without going to court - especially since he was willing to pay the Penalty Fare at the time, but was unable.

The only bad thing is that the amount they will settle for is likely to be more than the £20 at the time - most likely it will be something closer to £80 since they have incurred additional costs.

I believe that you'll receive a letter in the near future that will lay out what the company intends to do. If they ask for your son's side of events let us know and we can give advice of what to include in the letter.

 

[cottonsocks]

Thank you for your replies. He is feeling very upset about this but although he will pay up he really feels it very unfair. The slip of paper he was given is confusing. The train was packed and it was pouring with rain so busier than ever. Will let you know what happens.

 

[yorkie]

It would be useful to know what train it was, but I appreciate you may not want to divulge that information.

 

[cottonsocks]

It would be useful to know what train it was, but I appreciate you may not want to divulge that information.

Not sure what time exactly.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

I realise how difficult it is to give advice to a parent, where there is more than just the problematic issues of relying on third-party hearsay, but also the uncertainties of how able the child is to put events into the perspective of an adult, the extent to which they might choose to be selective in what they report, where in their report they might choose to place their emphasis, and in some cases, the extent to which they might be experimenting with deceipt (which is a well rehearsed form of reporatage in popular entertainment, even if not in their home) and in which the parent is simply placed in the role of an actor-protagonist / daemon.


But I'm going to jump to a guess on the outcome, before I address the facts. . . .

The guess is that the Inspector drew their own conclusions about the facts of the matter, and about the disposition of your son, and made an on-the-spot decision to issue a mildly inconvenient penalty, which, on one hand, avoids the serious issues of fact, with all their possible consequencies, and on the other, greatly increases his awareness of the gravity of his actions and benefits him with a better imformed sense of perspective; the £20 is a good level of 'penalty' to achieve an enhanced awareness of the severity of the situation without creating an adversarial and vindictive response by your son. I'll guess the Inspector is also a parent, and within the parameters available was showing some compassion.


Now, the facts. To travel in First Class accomodation on a train is a Criminal offence [postscript following bnm's response: . . . . . .when travelling without a First Class ticket.]
The 'pushed into first class' and 'blocked by luggage' would not have been observed by the Inspector; the Inspector would (apparently) have observed your son in First Class accomodation; it is amatter of fact that most passengers travelling in First Class accomodation when travelling with a Standard Class ticket being detected doing so will offer to move - that offer gives no insight into whether the passenger would have done so at that precise momment (in the absence of the Inspector) anyway, or would have done so only on apprehending the Inspector's approach - many do leave on seeing an Inspector, leaving Inspectors to suspect that everyone who moves away when they enter a First Class portion might be travelling on Standard tickets (or no tickets) and will be aware of their error; Inspectors are so used to encountering passengers travelling in First Class accomodation with Standard Class tickets, that some days that is the only work they have to deal with in terms of ticketing, and is the only intellegence their control will have received when determining how to deploy their Inspectors; I doubt that the tatoos and leather jackets are remotely relevant - plenty rail staff as so adorned - and that the 'intimidating' approach is no more than your son's intense discomfort at being challenged and questioned (whether that arose from his disposition including his beliefs, his undermined sense of confidence or sense of insecurity or even lack of confidence under stress, or other personal response) - I advise not to try to make anything of the Inspector's 'attitude' - they will have been trained and informed (despite the persistent views by others on here to the contrary) and who are addressing the loss of revenue through some form of fare evasion or other by their passengers which based on intelligence gathered, is estimated at around half a billion pounds each year.

Following my hunch, I will agree with 34D and respond to the request to provide evidence promptly and settle the £20. In so doing, make sure that your son appreciates that travelling by rail in future, without the appropriate ticket, can be a very serious matter (with penalties for some ticket scams well known to the Industry, leading to a penalty which can, theoretically, include inprisonment).

 

[bnm]

Now, the facts. To travel in First Class accomodation on a train is a Criminal offence.

Cripes! What's it there for then?

 

[DaveNewcastle]

Cripes! . . .

Thank you

 

[cottonsocks]

Thanks DaveNewcastle for your very helpful reply.
I take your point about responding to a parent and understand what you are saying. But I'm still grateful for advice.
My son understands the importance of travelling with the correct ticket. He says he saw the ticket inspector approaching but was still unable to move out until the pushchairs got off. It was only then that the inspector was able to reach him too. She moved faster than he did!

He was unable to pay the penalty fare at the time as he only had about £7 on him. However he is willing to pay it now but we don't know how.

The inspector gave him a tiny slip of paper that says:
" If fail to carry , passenger to send a copy of their seasonal ticket within 14 days to the address below , failure to do so may lead to prosecution." There is a number written on it. I don't think this is a penalty notice?

However it doesn't say what his crime was or how much he has to pay. It just mentions a seasonal ticket which doesn't apply to him at all. Is this a penalty notice? Or does he have to wait for a letter? We are all puzzled about what if anything he should do next. He is asking for advice but I don't know what to say so thats why I'm asking here.

Thanks so much for your replies. It's greatly appreciated.

 

[island]

As the passenger was unwilling to pay the Penalty Fare or the price of a single ticket on the spot (yes, "unwilling" was intentional; I expect he had a debit or credit card on him), he was not eligible for the issue of a Penalty Fare and has been reported for prosecution. He now needs to wait for a letter in the post explaining the next steps. This will take several weeks or even a few months to process.

Whether a prosecution will be successful or not isn't obvious, but I hope he took down the contact details of the alleged witness, as otherwise it is his word against the inspector's.

The "if fail to carry" bit is irrelevant in this situation – it is probable that the same form of paperwork is issued to passengers who have forgotten a season ticket and are availing of the TOC's discretion not to pursue the matter if it occurs occasionally and a copy of the ticket is sent in within 14 days.

 

[cottonsocks]

Ok thanks Island for the information about the slip of paper.
It looks like he will just have to wait for a letter in the post and take it from there.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Following my hunch, I will agree with 34D and respond to the request to provide evidence promptly and settle the £20. In so doing, make sure that your son appreciates that travelling by rail in future, without the appropriate ticket, can be a very serious matter (with penalties for some ticket scams well known to the Industry, leading to a penalty which can, theoretically, include inprisonment).

DaveNewcastle. Do you know if there is any way to pay the £20 now. He doesn't appear to have a penalty notice just this slip of paper saying "If fail to carry , passenger to send a copy of their seasonal ticket within 14 days to the address below, failure to do so may lead to prosecution."
He still feels the circumstances should have been taken into consideration and has never tried to travel 1st class before but there was just no room to stand. But given the amount of stress this is causing he now agrees it would be best to just pay. But he doesn't know how or if it is possible now.

 

[island]

It isn't possible for a £20 Penalty Fare to be issued retrospectively.

 

[najaB]

He doesn't appear to have a penalty notice just this slip of paper saying "If fail to carry , passenger to send a copy of their seasonal ticket within 14 days to the address below, failure to do so may lead to prosecution."

What is the address?

 

[6Gman]

He doesn't appear to have a penalty notice just this slip of paper saying "If fail to carry , passenger to send a copy of their seasonal ticket within 14 days to the address below, failure to do so may lead to prosecution."

Have you seen this slip of paper? The wording seems very odd.

Could you check exactly what it says?

 

[island]

Have you seen this slip of paper? The wording seems very odd.

Could you check exactly what it says?

Can you say what you think turns on the wording of the slip of paper? I don't think anything does.

 

[dlj83]

Last year in Sweden I accidentally sat in first class for a few minutes before being informed I was in the wrong seat. Why don't people in the UK use common sense and help someone out rather than fining or taking to court for what I'm sure is an honest mistake.

 

[najaB]

Why don't people in the UK use common sense and help someone out rather than fining or taking to court for what I'm sure is an honest mistake.

I'm willing to bet that nine times out of ten* that's exactly what happens.

*Other made up statistics are available.

 

[miami]

Last year in Sweden I accidentally sat in first class for a few minutes before being informed I was in the wrong seat. Why don't people in the UK use common sense and help someone out rather than fining or taking to court for what I'm sure is an honest mistake.

Because many trains in the UK don't have any ticket checks. If you sit in first class and then move on when asked, 9 out of 10 times* you'll get to sit in first class for the whole journey, and the rest of the time you'd just be moved on.

I agree it's a shame the OP was fined in the circumstances, however technically they were breaking the byelaw.

*Other made up statistics are available ; )

 

[cottonsocks]

Have you seen this slip of paper? The wording seems very odd.

Could you check exactly what it says?

This is what is says. It also has the station at the start of the journey and destination station on it. I'd rather not say what they are.

"If fail to carry , passenger to send a copy of their seasonal ticket within 14 days to the address below, failure to do so may lead to prosecution."

Address is Prosecution Dept. Room 114, East Side offices, Kings Cross Station, London N1C 4AP

His name isn't on it. Neither is his crime.

We are really puzzled here! Thanks for any advice or ideas. But I guess we have to sit tight until a letter arrives for him.

 

[6Gman]

This is what is says. It also has the station at the start of the journey and destination station on it. I'd rather not say what they are.

"If fail to carry , passenger to send a copy of their seasonal ticket within 14 days to the address below, failure to do so may lead to prosecution."

Address is Prosecution Dept. Room 114, East Side offices, Kings Cross Station, London N1C 4AP

His name isn't on it. Neither is his crime.

We are really puzzled here! Thanks for any advice or ideas. But I guess we have to sit tight until a letter arrives for him.

Thank you for clarifying that.

I'm astonished that a TOC issues such an incoherent sentence!

"If fail to carry" ?
"Seasonal ticket" ?

But, as others have suggested, it would appear that this is a form for other purposes -i.e. where somebody holds a season ticket but has forgotten it that day. Quite why it was used in these different circumstances is a mystery.

Presumably you will just have to wait until some more coherent message is sent - or contact them to ask what's going on?

 

[island]

But, as others have suggested, it would appear that this is a form for other purposes -i.e. where somebody holds a season ticket but has forgotten it that day. Quite why it was used in these different circumstances is a mystery.

Probably because the form is used for all different varieties of ticketing difficulty, rather than expecting RPIs to carry a green form for someone who's forgotten his season ticket, an orange one for someone without a ticket, a purple one for someone travelling in 1st on a standard ticket, a blue one for an adult on a child ticket, a grey one for forgotten railcard, a yellow one for travelling further than the ticket validity, a teal one for off route, and a turquoise one for ticket out of date.

 

[najaB]

Address is Prosecution Dept. Room 114, East Side offices, Kings Cross Station, London N1C 4AP

From the address I'm guessing that the TOC in question was Thameslink or Great Northern. Perhaps you should give them a Tweet (if you're on Twitter).

 

[miami]

Probably because the form is used for all different varieties of ticketing difficulty, rather than expecting RPIs to carry a green form for someone who's forgotten his season ticket, an orange one for someone without a ticket, a purple one for someone travelling in 1st on a standard ticket, a blue one for an adult on a child ticket, a grey one for forgotten railcard, a yellow one for travelling further than the ticket validity, a teal one for off route, and a turquoise one for ticket out of date.

That doesn't explain the incomprehensible English that wouldn't look out of place on the Daily Mail's message boards, let alone an official publication

 

[cottonsocks]

That doesn't explain the incomprehensible English that wouldn't look out of place on the Daily Mail's message boards, let alone an official publication

I totally agree. There is nothing to say what the procedure is. He still has his ticket but there seems to be no point sending a copy as it is a standard and not 1st Class.
Thanks to everyone who is trying to help though.

 

[Realfish]

It isn't possible for a £20 Penalty Fare to be issued retrospectively.

GTR's revised penalty fare rules (assuming that's who we're speaking of):

8.7 The instructions will remind Authorised Collectors that although they may require passengers to make a minimum payment in line with rule 8.2, passengers who are charged a penalty fare have 21 days in which to pay the remaining balance. Authorised Collectors will be given the discretion to not charge a minimum payment on the spot and instead allow passengers 21 days in which to pay the full amount of the penalty fare retrospectively.

GTR's instruction to authorised collectors goes on, in Appendix G of their guidance, to give examples of the forms that are to be used. This includes a 'penalty fare pay dates ready reckoner' to inform the customer when payment is required.

 

[cottonsocks]

GTR's revised penalty fare rules (assuming that's who we're speaking of):

8.7 The instructions will remind Authorised Collectors that although they may require passengers to make a minimum payment in line with rule 8.2, passengers who are charged a penalty fare have 21 days in which to pay the remaining balance. Authorised Collectors will be given the discretion to not charge a minimum payment on the spot and instead allow passengers 21 days in which to pay the full amount of the penalty fare retrospectively.

GTR's instruction to authorised collectors go on in Appendix G of their guidance to give examples of the forms that are to be used. This includes a 'penalty fare pay dates ready reckoner' to inform the customer when payment is required.

Thanks. He doesn't appear to have a penalty fare notice just the tiny slip of paper which makes little sense. It's about 4cm x 10cms.

 

[island]

GTR's revised penalty fare rules (assuming that's who we're speaking of):

8.7 The instructions will remind Authorised Collectors that although they may require passengers to make a minimum payment in line with rule 8.2, passengers who are charged a penalty fare have 21 days in which to pay the remaining balance. Authorised Collectors will be given the discretion to not charge a minimum payment on the spot and instead allow passengers 21 days in which to pay the full amount of the penalty fare retrospectively.

GTR's instruction to authorised collectors goes on, in Appendix G of their guidance, to give examples of the forms that are to be used. This includes a 'penalty fare pay dates ready reckoner' to inform the customer when payment is required.

That's true but not relevant to my post which you quoted. Unlike (say) speeding violations, it's not possible for a Penalty Fare to be issued by post several days after the incident.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

That doesn't explain the incomprehensible English that wouldn't look out of place on the Daily Mail's message boards, let alone an official publication

Sure. But nothing whatsoever turns on it, other than that it triggers the grammar pedants. I would much prefer to confine posts to helping the OP with the material issue at hand.

 

[Shempz]

While this is extremely unlikely to be the case here, DaveNewcastle also failed to point out its not an offence to sit in First Class without a valid ticket if your first opportunity to buy a 1st Class ticket was on the train (i.e. there were no ticket or PTT facilities at your station of origin, or on any opportunities to purchase a ticket on a previous connecting train/station).

 

[miami]

Sure. But nothing whatsoever turns on it, other than that it triggers the grammar pedants. I would much prefer to confine posts to helping the OP with the material issue at hand.

Not really, I think they're asking the OP to send a copy of a season ticket, which doesn't make sense. I'd love to see what a magistrate thought the next move should be when encountering the following instruction.

"If fail to carry , passenger to send a copy of their seasonal ticket within 14 days to the address below, failure to do so may lead to prosecution."