Hi
I'm looking for a bit of advice from people who know far more about the rules of the rail than me please!
I recently undertook a journey which I do a couple of times a week, from a small outlying station on the outskirts of town (with no ticket buying facilities) to a mainline station, to change to get to my destination at another mainline station.
Every time I make this journey I am unable to purchase tickets on the first part, but always buy a ticket at the mainline station stating my start point as the first station - in theory I don't need to do that because no-one would know any different but hey.
So, I was making the return journey one evening and arrived back at the small station at around 7pm. When I got off the train I was met by three (!) revenue protection staff who asked for my ticket. No problem, I thought, until I had a dig around in my wallet and realised I had left it on the train after it was checked by the inspector. Oops. Not to worry, I had the receipt part and also the outward part, and could show my bank statement on my phone to prove that I had paid.
I won't dwell too much on the frankly shocking attitude of the staff towards an admittedly naïve customer, but lets just say they were absolutely determined to be as difficult as possible and treat me link a criminal.
I answered all of the questions and tried to explain that I had no idea that you had to keep your tickets even after you had left your train. Whilst I do usually keep them just because they go back into my wallet, I hadn't considered I needed them once they had been checked on the train and there are no barriers at my starting/end point of the journey. I did demonstrate that I had all tickets for the whole month but irritatingly just not the one I needed.
There was no reasoning with them, for what was ultimately my mistake, but a genuine mistake and with evidence that payment had been made. I did suggest that they could heck the CCTV of the train and the station and they would see my buying the ticket, every time, for a destination earlier than where I actually needed to. Anyway, after about 30 minutes of standing around in the rain and being placed under caution (!) he made a call to verify my details and as expected I had no history of travelling without a ticket. I did politely ask for the use of some discretion for this misunderstanding but to no avail. I asked him I was going to get a charge for this and how much it would be, he was adamant that it wasn't up to him, and that he would send the details to GWR and they would decide.
A week or so passed and I received a nice letter from GWR informing me of the £91.10 'opportunity' to settle or face court action, criminal prosecutions etc etc. No mention of an appeals process and to be honest misleading, and threatening.
I phoned up and tried to reason with them, and they asked me to send in proof, so I was able to send in the two parts of the ticket I did have, plus a screenshot of my bank statement.
I didn't hear so chased them up as the deadline for payment had passed. They advised me that they couldn't read the ticket because it was in black and white. No problem, I was able to use a work scanner and send colour copies.
The next response was stunning. In light of accepting that I had paid for a ticket, they were prepared to accept £86 - effectively an £80 charge and then a charge for half of the original ticket, even though they had evidence I had already bought one!
I couldn't get to the phone fast enough, I was furious to be honest. They informed me that it was because they had incurred costs now and would need to recover them. I did point out that if the inspector had used his discretion (which I believe they can do under some circumstances?) then none of us would be wasting our time over this. I told her that we would look silly in court having a conversation about charging someone for a ticket which they accepted I had already paid for. After a long, long discussion, the lady on the phone at the prosecutions team offered to settle on £20 if I paid today as she had some sympathy for my situation.
I realise I may be getting a better deal than a lot of people given that technically I hold my hands up and didn't fully understand the rules, but should I challenge this or just count myself 'lucky'?
I wasn't given any notice or anything by the guy issuing the penalty and understand now that perhaps he should have? There are also no signs at all at the station where it was issued suggesting that you could face a penalty. I did suggest that it would be useful to have a sign saying to hold on to your ticket.
I spoke to GWR customer services immediately afterwards and they advised that they do have the chance to use their discretion and that usually in those circumstances you wouldn't get a ticket. I then spoke to them yesterday and they basically told me that it was out of their hands as it is handled by another company. I did point out that the letter was from GWR and so although it might be a different team, its the same company. She didn't believe me and went to check (!) and then said that it was my fault for not keeping hold of the ticket and the only way for it to be dropped is to pay it, and appeal.
I think it's disgusting the way that you're presumed to be guilty until you can prove your innocence, and that GWR all just point at each other when you ask who can help you sort it out. From reading online I don't have a lot of faith in the appeals process from other peoples horror stories.
So my question really, is, have I been issued with a valid penalty under the circumstances, and do I have any hope of disputing this? Or should I just accept its the best of a bad situation and pay the £20 'costs'?
It was an honest mistake which clearly I will learn from but the process is so inflexible and frustrating!
Sorry for the long ramble, just trying to give all the details. Any help or advice that anyone can provide to me would be really appreciated.
Thanks
I'm looking for a bit of advice from people who know far more about the rules of the rail than me please!
I recently undertook a journey which I do a couple of times a week, from a small outlying station on the outskirts of town (with no ticket buying facilities) to a mainline station, to change to get to my destination at another mainline station.
Every time I make this journey I am unable to purchase tickets on the first part, but always buy a ticket at the mainline station stating my start point as the first station - in theory I don't need to do that because no-one would know any different but hey.
So, I was making the return journey one evening and arrived back at the small station at around 7pm. When I got off the train I was met by three (!) revenue protection staff who asked for my ticket. No problem, I thought, until I had a dig around in my wallet and realised I had left it on the train after it was checked by the inspector. Oops. Not to worry, I had the receipt part and also the outward part, and could show my bank statement on my phone to prove that I had paid.
I won't dwell too much on the frankly shocking attitude of the staff towards an admittedly naïve customer, but lets just say they were absolutely determined to be as difficult as possible and treat me link a criminal.
I answered all of the questions and tried to explain that I had no idea that you had to keep your tickets even after you had left your train. Whilst I do usually keep them just because they go back into my wallet, I hadn't considered I needed them once they had been checked on the train and there are no barriers at my starting/end point of the journey. I did demonstrate that I had all tickets for the whole month but irritatingly just not the one I needed.
There was no reasoning with them, for what was ultimately my mistake, but a genuine mistake and with evidence that payment had been made. I did suggest that they could heck the CCTV of the train and the station and they would see my buying the ticket, every time, for a destination earlier than where I actually needed to. Anyway, after about 30 minutes of standing around in the rain and being placed under caution (!) he made a call to verify my details and as expected I had no history of travelling without a ticket. I did politely ask for the use of some discretion for this misunderstanding but to no avail. I asked him I was going to get a charge for this and how much it would be, he was adamant that it wasn't up to him, and that he would send the details to GWR and they would decide.
A week or so passed and I received a nice letter from GWR informing me of the £91.10 'opportunity' to settle or face court action, criminal prosecutions etc etc. No mention of an appeals process and to be honest misleading, and threatening.
I phoned up and tried to reason with them, and they asked me to send in proof, so I was able to send in the two parts of the ticket I did have, plus a screenshot of my bank statement.
I didn't hear so chased them up as the deadline for payment had passed. They advised me that they couldn't read the ticket because it was in black and white. No problem, I was able to use a work scanner and send colour copies.
The next response was stunning. In light of accepting that I had paid for a ticket, they were prepared to accept £86 - effectively an £80 charge and then a charge for half of the original ticket, even though they had evidence I had already bought one!
I couldn't get to the phone fast enough, I was furious to be honest. They informed me that it was because they had incurred costs now and would need to recover them. I did point out that if the inspector had used his discretion (which I believe they can do under some circumstances?) then none of us would be wasting our time over this. I told her that we would look silly in court having a conversation about charging someone for a ticket which they accepted I had already paid for. After a long, long discussion, the lady on the phone at the prosecutions team offered to settle on £20 if I paid today as she had some sympathy for my situation.
I realise I may be getting a better deal than a lot of people given that technically I hold my hands up and didn't fully understand the rules, but should I challenge this or just count myself 'lucky'?
I wasn't given any notice or anything by the guy issuing the penalty and understand now that perhaps he should have? There are also no signs at all at the station where it was issued suggesting that you could face a penalty. I did suggest that it would be useful to have a sign saying to hold on to your ticket.
I spoke to GWR customer services immediately afterwards and they advised that they do have the chance to use their discretion and that usually in those circumstances you wouldn't get a ticket. I then spoke to them yesterday and they basically told me that it was out of their hands as it is handled by another company. I did point out that the letter was from GWR and so although it might be a different team, its the same company. She didn't believe me and went to check (!) and then said that it was my fault for not keeping hold of the ticket and the only way for it to be dropped is to pay it, and appeal.
I think it's disgusting the way that you're presumed to be guilty until you can prove your innocence, and that GWR all just point at each other when you ask who can help you sort it out. From reading online I don't have a lot of faith in the appeals process from other peoples horror stories.
So my question really, is, have I been issued with a valid penalty under the circumstances, and do I have any hope of disputing this? Or should I just accept its the best of a bad situation and pay the £20 'costs'?
It was an honest mistake which clearly I will learn from but the process is so inflexible and frustrating!
Sorry for the long ramble, just trying to give all the details. Any help or advice that anyone can provide to me would be really appreciated.
Thanks
