London Bridge reconstruction works

[ScotGG]

Cheers that's good to know.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Final layout is 3 for Cannon St, 2 for Thameslink, 4 for Charing Cross. 9 in total.

Out of interest, what's the rationale for only 3 platforms for CST compared to 4 for CHX? Is Cannon Street anticipated to have fewer services or something?

 

[swt_passenger]

Out of interest, what's the rationale for only 3 platforms for CST compared to 4 for CHX? Is Cannon Street anticipated to have fewer services or something?

Probably no room, but didn't Cannon St have three already anyway, and if the main aim of the rebuild was to provide the extra tracks for Thameslink it's possible extra Cannon St platforms were never part of the scope.

Cannon St does get a couple less trains per hour in the peak in the steady state after rebuild but AIUI that is due to terminating capacity, not because of reduced capacity at London Bridge.

 

[hwl]

Out of interest, what's the rationale for only 3 platforms for CST compared to 4 for CHX? Is Cannon Street anticipated to have fewer services or something?

Cannon Street is limited because of the reactively short distance and low speeds between it and London Bridge to shuffle trains in and out of the platforms at CST rather than the long term 3 tracks to North Kent East Jn (currently 2) or 3 platforms at London Bridge being the issue. Long term the solution to extra capacity is Thameslink style ERTMS and ATO.

CHX has 1 less platform than CST but a far more useful approach layout hence an extra +6tph (@12car) at CHX (Assuming no ECS via Blackfriars)

 

[ijmad]

It's four platforms for Charing Cross eventually though. What's just opened is not finished, because the P6 track and structure is not there yet. Then when it is, in August, it will be needed temporarily for the up Cannon St route.

I wonder if they considered stopping a few Cannon St ups on P6 between August and when they slew the lines back to the new P1/2/3 in 2017. Even if they could only manage off peak services, it does seem useful, and given they're passing through what will (by then) be a fully operational platform for CHX down, it seems a bit of a waste!

 

[ijmad]

Which way are the escalators facing, London or country?

There is a video from Network Rail showing the arrangement of platform escalators and the new concourse on YouTube, watch from 1:45 to 1:50.

P1 gets its very own dual staircase and two escalators
Through island platforms (P2/3, P4/5, P6/7, P8/9) get dual staircases and four escalators (one on each side of both staircases) per pair of platforms.
P10 & P15 get a single staircase and a single escalator.
P11/12 and P13/14 share a single staircase and a single escalator per pair of platforms.

There will be an additional staircase and double escalator in the triangular void between P9 and P10, from the current upper concourse down to the new lower concourse for passengers from the fronts of terminating trains, which presumably replaces some of the lost capacity from the quad escalators down to the current vaults on the way to the tube.

Have attached screen grabs!

Incidentally does anyone know what the lump between P9 and P10 is going to be? You can see it in my second attachment. I've heard it's the 'services spine' - what is a services spine?

 

[FOH]

On terminating platforms wouldn't platform staff reverse the escalator down for a few minutes after a service has arrived before switching to the up direction again as the queues clear. Presumably there'll be a lift too that can be used for each,platform.

 

[neilm]

On terminating platforms wouldn't platform staff reverse the escalator down for a few minutes after a service has arrived before switching to the up direction again as the queues clear. Presumably there'll be a lift too that can be used for each,platform.

I would imagine it stays in the down direction to clear the platforms as soon as possible. Then possibly in the evening peak it changes into the up direction.

 

[Bald Rick]

Incidentally does anyone know what the lump between P9 and P10 is going to be? You can see it in my second attachment. I've heard it's the 'services spine' - what is a services spine?

This may be a statement of the bleedin' obvious, but it's a spine that carries all the services.

Essentially a large channel with all the utilities in it. There's a lot of them.

 

[neilm]

When does the change over for vaults happen? What I mean is the current escalators on the southern concourse are removed so the passage goes to the new concourse? Is that august this year or in 2018?

 

[DynamicSpirit]

There is a video from Network Rail showing the arrangement of platform escalators and the new concourse on YouTube, watch from 1:45 to 1:50.

Terminating platforms get one staircase and one escalator per pair, presumably up only or peak direction, P15 and P10 obviously get their own.
Through platforms get two staircases and four escalators, two up and two down, on either side of the staircases. P1 gets its own set (but only two escalators).

There will be an additional double escalator in the triangular void between P10 and P9, from the current upper concourse down to the new lower concourse, which presumably replaces some of the lost capacity from the quad escalators down to the current vaults on the way to the tube.

Nice video. But on escalator capacity - eek! Isn't only one escalator plus one staircase going to cause massive bottlenecks on the terminating platforms at rush hour? If trains arrive on both sides of a platform at about the same time, then presumably two packed trainloads will both be trying to get to onto that single escalator+stair at the same time. And won't that be a nightmare for anyone trying to travel in the contra-peak direction (eg. trying to get up the stairs and onto the platform at the moment that all the crowds are trying to get off it)?

 

[neilm]

Nice video. But on escalator capacity - eek! Isn't only one escalator plus one staircase going to cause massive bottlenecks on the terminating platforms at rush hour? If trains arrive on both sides of a platform at about the same time, then presumably two packed trainloads will both be trying to get to onto that single escalator+stair at the same time. And won't that be a nightmare for anyone trying to travel in the contra-peak direction (eg. trying to get up the stairs and onto the platform at the moment that all the crowds are trying to get off it)?

We survive at the moment remember the top level concourse will still be open.

 

[ijmad]

Nice video. But on escalator capacity - eek! Isn't only one escalator plus one staircase going to cause massive bottlenecks on the terminating platforms at rush hour? If trains arrive on both sides of a platform at about the same time, then presumably two packed trainloads will both be trying to get to onto that single escalator+stair at the same time. And won't that be a nightmare for anyone trying to travel in the contra-peak direction (eg. trying to get up the stairs and onto the platform at the moment that all the crowds are trying to get off it)?

I wondered about that too, but maybe it's not so bad.

If you think about how things are at the moment, everyone has to walk to the buffer stops and exit through the gates there, and that's staying as is, albeit with slightly reduced down capacity to the tube.

Then we add the additional stairs and the escalator to the lower concourse per platform (or platform pair). The steps themselves look quite wide, at least 2 or 3 people across. Tube platforms empty with a lot less, despite having a far more intensive service.

Maybe there is some thinking being done about how to coordinate train/platform arrivals/departures so the escalators are going in the right direction and there will be sufficient capacity when two trains arrive at once (i.e. don't put them both on a shared platform). I'd hope so anyway.

 

[physics34]

Just hope out of all the retail outlets that there is a place that sells a sausage roll for less than £3.49!!!

Oh, and that an AMT coffee remains rather than a Nero.

 

[ijmad]

When does the change over for vaults happen? What I mean is the current escalators on the southern concourse are removed so the passage goes to the new concourse? Is that august this year or in 2018?

It must be before the lower concourse opens in August, because at that point the new route from the lower concourse to the tube goes right through where the current escalators land, necessitating their removal.

I'd imagine the old escalators might be able to be removed relatively quickly, perhaps in a weekend with people directed down through the Shard arcade or out via the concourse exits and down around to the Tooley St tube entrance.

 

[swt_passenger]

I wonder if they considered stopping a few Cannon St ups on P6 between August and when they slew the lines back to the new P1/2/3 in 2017. Even if they could only manage off peak services, it does seem useful, and given they're passing through what will (by then) be a fully operational platform for CHX down, it seems a bit of a waste!

Highly unlikely. Didn't the down line from Charing Cross run through a closed platform for quite a significant period, and stopping was never considered. If an opportunity to call becomes off-peak only and one way only, the down side will be passengers coming to the station for nonexistent services at the wrong times, or in the wrong direction. Much easier to have a clean break, I would have thought.

 

[ijmad]

Highly unlikely. Didn't the down line from Charing Cross run through a closed platform for quite a significant period, and stopping was never considered. If an opportunity to call becomes off-peak only and one way only, the down side will be passengers coming to the station for nonexistent services at the wrong times, or in the wrong direction. Much easier to have a clean break, I would have thought.

Yeah, you're probably right. I will just be happy to see CHX trains return!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

On terminating platforms wouldn't platform staff reverse the escalator down for a few minutes after a service has arrived before switching to the up direction again as the queues clear. Presumably there'll be a lift too that can be used for each,platform.

From the video, there seems to be 52 stairs up to the platforms (13x4), so it's going to be quite a climb if the escalator is set to 'down'.

By comparison, this is more stairs than at Blackfriars (a broadly reminiscent design of a concourse underneath through & terminating platforms although on a smaller scale).

Anecdotal experience from commuting through Blackfriars is that people are pretty unwilling to ascend the stairs. I'm certainly game for it but not everyone has that in them after a long day at work.

I guess we'll see how they operate it in practice.

 

[swt_passenger]

From the video, there seems to be 52 stairs up to the platforms (13x4), so it's going to be quite a climb if the escalator is set to 'down'.

I suppose one of the features of the design (once they decided to have a common circulation area under all the platforms), is that the rising gradient of the through platforms would have always led to them having longer escalators and stairs than the terminating platforms.

But they could have had the entire circulating area higher with respect to ground level, but then would have needed additional stairs and ramps at all the street level entrances and exits.

Then they'd have looked at the overall proportions. A space that big in terms of area, needs to have a high ceiling, or it would look all wrong to people using it...

 

[FOH]

My thinking was it would only go down for 2-3 mins before being reversed. There would need to be lifts for the foot traffic the other way.

I do wonder how many passengers will actually want to use the lower concourse. If we think generally of commuters presumably only tube passengers and those that work in More London. I work in the City and can't see why I'd ever use it.

 

[ijmad]

My thinking was it would only go down for 2-3 mins before being reversed. There would need to be lifts for the foot traffic the other way.

I do wonder how many passengers will actually want to use the lower concourse. If we think generally of commuters presumably only tube passengers and those that work in More London. I work in the City and can't see why I'd ever use it.

You don't have a choice if you're changing on/off the through services, the only way off the through platforms is down in to the concourse! Likewise the new way through the vaults to the tube will start in the lower concourse. I live in SE London (my trains terminate at LBG) and work near CHX, so I'd board my train 2/3 of the way back, take the north pointing stairs down to the lower concourse, walk to P9/8 and go up again to the front of a CHX train.

As for the route to the tube, if I alight from a Cannon St, CHX or TL train at the North end of their platforms, I will now need to walk south 1/3rd of a platform, go down 50 stairs, then double back on myself and walk twice the length of the current vaults to get to the tube station.

Similar issue exists for people who alight from the front of a terminating train, as you'll need to double back on yourself to go down the stairs (pointing south) in the P9/10 triangle gap, and then double back on yourself *again* to walk through the vaults to the tube. Guessing this will add several minutes to an already pretty long interchange to get to the Jubilee/Northern line. A quicker option for these passengers might be to walk out of the upper concourse and use the outdoor escalators down through the Shard arcade... or just get on a bus!

Don't get me wrong, I am really impressed with what they're doing to the station in limited space, but it's definitely got some compromises.

 

[FOH]

Yes my thoughts were overly Southern centric - I plain forgot about Southeastern! Thinking about now, Southeastern passengers share my route to the City with segregated high level footways but in the new layout they'll have to descend all the way down, cross a road and then climb back up the hill to cross London Bridge.

 

[ijmad]

Yes my thoughts were overly Southern centric - I plain forgot about Southeastern! Thinking about now, Southeastern passengers share my route to the City with segregated high level footways but in the new layout they'll have to descend all the way down, cross a road and then climb back up the hill to cross London Bridge.

That's a good one. I read somewhere the high level walkways will be staying open, but they'll be practically impossible/pointless to get to from the through platforms.

You'd need to descend to the lower concourse and walk up Tooley St outdoors, or walk through the vaults to Joiner St and get back up to them there, or go up to the upper concourse, exit the station, and walk under the viaducts (from the platforms you've just been on).

 

[swt_passenger]

There'll also be all the people off newly 'converted' Thameslink through services (that were previously Southern terminating services), and I guess many of them may still wish to leave the station on foot and cross London Bridge.

But the transfer of some 'Southern' routes to 'Thameslink' will also slightly alter the number of services terminating in P10-15?

 

[hwl]

Terminating platform escalators (this has been done to death before earlier in the thread)

Am down PM up i.e. peak flow

Due to the arrival sequencing on adjacent island platforms (for parallel moves etc) no time to swap direction when it would be useful

The is also a large bank of new escalators between the ground and platform level concourse (between P9 and 10 triangle level with the buffers behind where the current escalator bank is) that will allow passengers to take an escalator in the contra peak direction to the terminating platforms.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

There'll also be all the people off newly 'converted' Thameslink through services (that were previously Southern terminating services), and I guess many of them may still wish to leave the station on foot and cross London Bridge.

But the transfer of some 'Southern' routes to 'Thameslink' will also slightly alter the number of services terminating in P10-15?

Only by 2tph when TL opens but they are looking to add 2tph terminators in CP6 so not really.

The big issue will be gate line / ped flow design around P10

 

[ijmad]

I note with some interest the Hayes bound train I'm currently on just passed P8, which I understood to be an 'up' platform rather than P7. I assume the lines are reversible but still something of a surprise.

 

[OxtedL]

They have been alternating which platforms the Charing Cross trains pass through, since they only need one for each of up and down trains at present whilst nothing is stopping.

If you are interested then Open Train Times has a good (although not quite perfect) signalling diagram of the area reconstructed from Network Rail's open data, link here.

On Monday when I looked briefly (the new layout was already there on the site) they were using 7 and 8 for down and up trains respectively which matches all the videos and photos linked on this thread. On Tuesday it seemed to be 8 and 9, changing to 7 and 9 by the evening peak - although I was only looking briefly and not watching so that might not be the whole story!

Varying which tracks are used will be good for distributing wear, helping the new equipment bed in, and getting drivers used to the new layout. There might be a slight penalty for using 8 rather than 7 on the down (15 mph crossover rather than 20mph through??) but it will be very marginal.

 

[carriageline]

Correct, slight penalty for using 8 vice 7, but it's a tiny difference (5mph as you say).

Reason we are swapping the platforms as you say, is to mainly use the up loop, and stop rust forming as nothing is 'booked' there.

It's also a good idea to use and swing the points too, otherwise it's Always the way when you go to use them due to failure or whatever they will fail as they haven't been used!!

 

[Barn]

Yes my thoughts were overly Southern centric - I plain forgot about Southeastern! Thinking about now, Southeastern passengers share my route to the City with segregated high level footways but in the new layout they'll have to descend all the way down, cross a road and then climb back up the hill to cross London Bridge.

How many of the people who walk across London Bridge are Southeastern passengers out of interest? I'd have thought many of them would board CST services and terminate in the City itself, as I do.

 

[ijmad]

How many of the people who walk across London Bridge are Southeastern passengers out of interest? I'd have thought many of them would board CST services and terminate in the City itself, as I do.

Maybe more people will take the train if the walk becomes less convenient!

One thing that's rather annoying about the current layout is that up trains to Cannon Street can either stop on P2 or P3 which are separated by stairs or a ramp. In the new layout, P2 and P3 are an island so much more convenient.

In the evening when P2 is being used as a down, it's less important because people will be waiting for trains to specific destinations and people doing the hop one stop from CST to LBG don't care what platform they arrive on!

 

[GodAtum]

Yes my thoughts were overly Southern centric - I plain forgot about Southeastern! Thinking about now, Southeastern passengers share my route to the City with segregated high level footways but in the new layout they'll have to descend all the way down, cross a road and then climb back up the hill to cross London Bridge.

Where does the lower concourse exit to? By the bustop on Tooley Street?