Help with letter from GWR Prosecutions Unit

[Slugsie]

Hi, I've been referred here from another forum, hopefully you can offer me some advice.

I have received a letter from Great Western Railway Prosecutions Unit, saying that my daughter was found travelling on a train without a valid ticket. They are requesting that I pay for the ticket - £29 - and a charge towards costs incurred - £25 - for a total of £54.

My daughter (16yrs old) travelled from Blackpool to Manchester on Oct 9th, shortly after school time, so probably around 4pm ish. This was her first train journey completely unsupervised (in the past I've bought the ticket myself), so it's not impossible she made a mistake. She tells me that she bought a return ticket over the counter at Blackpool, paid in cash. She can't remember how much the ticket cost (it was nearly 3 months ago). On the train the inspector confiscated her ticket, and took her name and address. Again, she can't remember what the inspector said at the time. I fully understand that inspectors don't normally confiscate tickets without reason, but my daughter claims not to remember what it was. On the return journey later that evening (last train from Manchester to Blackpool) she had no problems using the return part of the ticket.

Is there any grounds that I can appeal on? I have no evidence of any part of my daughter's version, and while she is generally reasonably honest, she is still a 16y/o and has been known to 'bend the truth' on occasion.

The part that's annoying me most right now is the £29 for a one-way ticket. Most return tickets seem to be under £20, even as low as £13 booked online for same day. It's only when you want first class that they come above that.

Any help would be greatly appreciated before I throw myself on the mercy of GWR.

 

[Clip]

Did she have a childs ticket or a standard ticket?

 

[crehld]

There's a lot to be confused about here. Let start off with the two obvious questions.

Firstly, if your daughter is the one who is alleged to have travelled without a valid ticket, why are you being asked to pay? How did they end up with your name if your daughter provided her's?

Secondly, I'm somewhat puzzled by GWR's involvement in a ticketing dispute on a route between Blackpool and Manchester. A GWR revenue protection inspector must have been really lost that day! Are you sure the letter is from GWR, or, indeed, are you sure it is travel between Blackpool and Manchester which is being disputed?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Did she have a childs ticket or a standard ticket?

An equally legitimate question!

 

[furlong]

You should certainly seek clarification from them about how the figure of £29 was arrived at - mistakes are occasionally made. Does the letter specifically name any stations? (Equally, GWR might find themselves filling in some additional details your daughter hasn't told you which would explain the discrepancy.)
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Secondly, I'm somewhat puzzled by GWR's involvement in a ticketing dispute on a route between Blackpool and Manchester.

That's not unusual - some prosecutions are handled centrally by GWR on behalf of other franchisees.

 

[Slugsie]

Did she have a childs ticket or a standard ticket?

Just checked with her, and it appears she might have tried to get away with a childs ticket. :-x In which case I understand why the inspector wasn't happy.

Still, the £29 charge for a single is a bit steep. A standard anytime one-way is only £18.90, and other one-way tickets at the same time come in as low as £3. Even an off-peak return (which I think would have covered the journey) is only £17.

Hopefully some grovelling on the phone will work.

 

[Slugsie]

There's a lot to be confused about here. Let start off with the two obvious questions.

Firstly, if your daughter is the one who is alleged to have travelled without a valid ticket, why are you being asked to pay? How did they end up with your name if your daughter provided her's?

Secondly, I'm somewhat puzzled by GWR's involvement in a ticketing dispute on a route between Blackpool and Manchester. A GWR revenue protection inspector must have been really lost that day! Are you sure the letter is from GWR, or, indeed, are you sure it is travel between Blackpool and Manchester which is being disputed?

I am being contacted as the Parent/Guardian. The letter quite clearly comes from GWR Prosecutions Unit, and it quite clearly states a journey between Blackpool and Manchester. I think from other threads that GWR handle the prosecutions for other operators in the area.

 

[ainsworth74]

Secondly, I'm somewhat puzzled by GWR's involvement in a ticketing dispute on a route between Blackpool and Manchester.

It's a TPE route my guess is that they're getting GWR to handle it for them as a sister company. But it is worth recalling that any TOC can prosecute it doesn't have to be the one your travelled on so this isn't strictly relevant.

 

[crehld]

That's not unusual - some prosecutions are handled centrally by GWR on behalf of other franchisees.

Perhaps. Northern and TPE are the two TOCs who operate between Blackpool and Manchester. Northern definitely handle their own prosecutions and I was under the impression TPE did the same, but perhaps they let their sister company deal with it.

 

[furlong]

On the train the inspector confiscated her ticket

An inspector who confiscates a ticket should always provide a receipt for it.

You might consider asking your daughter again what paperwork she was handed (or was offered and refused or lost).

 

[island]

An inspector who confiscates a ticket should always provide a receipt for it.

You might consider asking your daughter again what paperwork she was handed (or was offered and refused or lost).

I don't know if that would be fruitful — most likely if it was accepted it went in the bin or was hidden in the hope it would all go away.

I also can't immediately see where the fare of £29 is coming from, unless 1st class travel was involved, but on the other hand the costs at £25 are below average.

 

[bb21]

I am also wondering about the £29 fare, the same as others.

A couple of quick points:

1. I believe it has been confirmed by some forum members that GWR now handle a lot of FirstGroup prosecution cases for sister companies;
2. I think we have been over this point before but a receipt only has to be issued to enable the passenger to complete his/her journey. If the passenger was already at the end of the journey, or on the train to his/her destination, it is not required. However if a Penalty Fare or a TIR were filled out, obviously the passenger should get some sort of paperwork. Whether that contradicts the NRCoC I can't say for sure but that is the instruction to staff AFAIK.

It all depends on how much you consider the additional hassle to be worth it for potentially little gain and there is a possibility things could get worse if challenged. The correct single fare that I can see is £18.90, so about a £10 discrepancy, but £25 admin costs is low compared to other cases reported on here, so £54 is a pretty decent sum to pay to settle the matter. Should you make a fuss about it, it is possible that in due course they may simply charge you what seems to have become the standard £80 for their costs.

I'd say pay it and put it behind you. If your daughter tried to be naughty then maybe it is time to deduct the money from her pocket money for the next few weeks.

 

[ainsworth74]

I'd say pay it and put it behind you. If your daughter tried to be naughty then maybe it is time to deduct the money from her pocket money for the next few weeks.

I was thinking that this might be best. The amount they've requested doesn't seem unreasonable in comparison to others that we've seen and if your daughter has been naughty it would seem fair to deduct the money from anything that you give her.

It might also help make it clear quite how serious an offence it is trying to travel on an invalid ticket. If she was older she could have been facing a criminal prosecution would leave her with a criminal record and all the issues that would then cause. So losing a bit of pocket money is a rather good outcome from her point of view...

 

[najaB]

I was thinking that this might be best. The amount they've requested doesn't seem unreasonable in comparison to others that we've seen and if your daughter has been naughty it would seem fair to deduct the money from anything that you give her.

Same here: £54 is less than it could've been. If it had been a Northern RPI then it would have been at least £80, if she was taken to court as a adult (technically possible but highly unlikely) it could easily cost five or even ten times as much.

Pay it and tell her that she has to pay you back out of her first summer job pay cheque.

 

[221129]

Perhaps. Northern and TPE are the two TOCs who operate between Blackpool and Manchester. Northern definitely handle their own prosecutions and I was under the impression TPE did the same, but perhaps they let their sister company deal with it.

All current first group franchises use the GWR prosecutions team at Reading.

is the £29 the Anytime return fare?

 

[cjmillsnun]

All current first group franchises use the GWR prosecutions team at Reading.

is the £29 the Anytime return fare?

In that case some form of paperwork should've been issued to allow the return journey. The original ticket wasn't valid. And OP I agree with bb21 I'd just pay it and recover the money from your daughter.

 

[miami]

I certainly wouldn't mention that she travelled on the return half of a child ticket later in that day!

An inspector who confiscates a ticket should always provide a receipt for it.

Is that really written down anywhere?

 

[sheff1]

An inspector who confiscates a ticket should always provide a receipt for it.

Is that really written down anywhere?

Withdrawals due to misuse of tickets (as would seem to be the case here) are covered in NRCOC 20 (my bold):

If you do not comply in a material way with any Condition that applies to the use of a ticket, staff or agents of any Train Company may withdraw the ticket and you will be given a receipt.

 

[Slugsie]

Just thought I'd post the outcome of this as I finally got through to GWR (they helpfully are only open 9-4, and only appear to have a single working line, so getting through during my lunch break proved awkward).

Yes, the issue was that she was travelling on a child ticket, that was on the records. Why they couldn't just include that detail in the letter is beyond me as it would have made life simpler for me.

The £29 comes about because normally charge for 2 singles, which are £18.90 each on this journey IIRC, and then deduct the value of the invalid ticket (about £9). Again, including that detail on the letter would have been ever so helpful.

So, fine paid, and punishment planned for the daughter.

Thanks for your input everyone.

 

[island]

Thanks for the update.

 

[ainsworth74]

Many thanks for the update it is most annoying that we often never get to find out what happens to people who come seeking assistance!