Avantix replacement (previously: Arriva ditch Avantix)

[RPI]

Confirmation that GWR's replacement will be Android based too (probably the same as ATW as I speculated), but the implementation is behind schedule.

All on track for end of March as planned from what my line manager tells me?

 

[ainsworth74]

Id have thought the main complaint about Avantix was the weight and bulk. I can't think of many other parts of the role of the Guard that has led to so much injury.

I would have thought so too! Plus they're not even that slow to print really and I've noticed that a lot of guards who are processing a cash payment use the time that the ticket is printing to count out any change or to check another ticket so doesn't even waste the time!

 

[causton]

Perhaps there will be an option to get a re-encode onto credit-card sized stock a station ticket offices?

Perhaps that is the secret plan to keep dying ticket offices in work - we spend all our time exchanging flimsy till roll tickets bought from the conductors! We get it enough with weekly seasons that people buy from Avantix machines that then don't work the barriers instantly after issuing...

 

[Solent&Wessex]

One of my main concerns of till roll style tickets will be durability.

As mentioned, how long will a paper till roll weekly season last having been taken in and out of a wallet umpteen times to scan at gates?
How long will the thermal printing last? Some bus tickets I get can barely last the day if they have been folded in my wallet in my pocket and taken in and out to show each driver. Within a month sometimes the paper is almost blank - not good for Anytime or Off Peak Returns!

Heaven knows how some of the passengers will manage to keep a bit of paper safe, in one piece and legible throughout the validity of the ticket. Lots of people can't manage that with a card one now!

 

[causton]

Perhaps they will have a plastic sticky wallet, like bus operators do

 

[button_boxer]

Perhaps they will have a plastic sticky wallet, like bus operators do

Though whenever I've bought a Derbyshire Wayfarer on an Arriva bus with the sticky wallet it has faded to completely blank within a few hours. Definitely something in the interaction between the thermal ticket and the wallet adhesive as plain bus tickets on the same stock retain their text for weeks or more.

 

[Delta558]

I haven't seen the new machines (or their tickets) yet, but I'm not looking forward to this introduction as much as I did the introduction of the Avantix machines this close to it 'going live'. Time will tell, I suppose . . .

 

[185]

Biggest concern is fraud. Some small transport operators tried this with PTE tickets - the fraud was monumental - and here's a huge company replicating the very same thing.

Utterly daft. If they want to use till roll, the Swiss ticketing, with holograms on thermal ticket paper isn't much more of an outlay.

 

[grumblingalong]

AGA machines will be the Fujitsu variant, with a smaller traditional printer to start moving onto paper roll eventually. Rollout should be April time so I'm told.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Biggest concern is fraud. Some small transport operators tried this with PTE tickets - the fraud was monumental - and here's a huge company replicating the very same thing.

The key difference is the barcode. Do this right, and it's a solid move towards e-ticketing, in which the ticket could be printed on the back of your hand and it wouldn't matter.

 

[WelshBluebird]

All I can say is oh dear after reading the ATW website:

"As well as the physical change to your ticket, during the pilot period you will initially only be able to buy tickets for journeys on the Arriva Trains Wales network. If you require a ticket for a journey beyond our network, your conductor will advise on how to purchase a ticket for journeys beyond the Arriva Trains Wales network"

I make a fairly regular (at least twice a month) journey from an unmanned ATW valley line station that has no ticketing facilities to Bath Spa. Currently I can board the train, buy a ticket direct to Bath Spa from the guard, arrive at Cardiff Central at 22 minutes past the hour and jump on the board the half past Portsmouth Harbour service (valid connection as the minimum time at CDF is 7 minutes). Now I will not be able to do that and presumably will have to fuss about at Cardiff Central to buy a proper ticket. Useless. Do ATW actually give a damn about their passengers?

I hope GWR do not follow down the same route as I often travel from an unmanned station on this side of the bridge too!

 

[Clip]

All I can say is oh dear after reading the ATW website:

"As well as the physical change to your ticket, during the pilot period you will initially only be able to buy tickets for journeys on the Arriva Trains Wales network. If you require a ticket for a journey beyond our network, your conductor will advise on how to purchase a ticket for journeys beyond the Arriva Trains Wales network"

I make a fairly regular (at least twice a month) journey from an unmanned ATW valley line station that has no ticketing facilities to Bath Spa. Currently I can board the train, buy a ticket direct to Bath Spa from the guard, arrive at Cardiff Central at 22 minutes past the hour and jump on the board the half past Portsmouth Harbour service (valid connection as the minimum time at CDF is 7 minutes). Now I will not be able to do that and presumably will have to fuss about at Cardiff Central to buy a proper ticket. Useless. Do ATW actually give a damn about their passengers?

I hope GWR do not follow down the same route as I often travel from an unmanned station on this side of the bridge too!

Maybe ask what ATW what you can do in that situation and let them answer before you ask if they give a damn about their passengers. Im sure they have something in mind for those journeys that cross the border.

 

[WelshBluebird]

Maybe ask what ATW what you can do in that situation and let them answer before you ask if they give a damn about their passengers. Im sure they have something in mind for those journeys that cross the border.

Knowing ATW it will be "use the excess fares desk at Cardiff Central" which most of the time will mean that connection goes out of the window. Granted it will probably not affect the majority of their passengers but it doesn't seem like this has been thought out enough to actually be putting it into use at this time.

Now I would hope that by the time this is further rolled out then these issues will be gone, but at least to me these issues should be sorted out first before it is rolled out at all. We all know Avantix isn't great, but it has been good enough for years now surely a few months to iron out some details isn't too much to ask?

 

[the sniper]

Biggest concern is fraud. Some small transport operators tried this with PTE tickets - the fraud was monumental - and here's a huge company replicating the very same thing.

Utterly daft. If they want to use till roll, the Swiss ticketing, with holograms on thermal ticket paper isn't much more of an outlay.

This was my thought, as surely these tickets/receipts are going to be massively open to fraud? Are purely visual inspection of tickets is soon to be a thing of the past, as anyone inclined to do so could print up one of these things...

As much as I don't like it, I get why they're so drawn to till roll, but to use bog standard blank paper roll seems like madness!

 

[Clip]

Knowing ATW it will be "use the excess fares desk at Cardiff Central" which most of the time will mean that connection goes out of the window. Granted it will probably not affect the majority of their passengers but it doesn't seem like this has been thought out enough to actually be putting it into use at this time.

Now I would hope that by the time this is further rolled out then these issues will be gone, but at least to me these issues should be sorted out first before it is rolled out at all. We all know Avantix isn't great, but it has been good enough for years now surely a few months to iron out some details isn't too much to ask?

So you dont know if they are sorted out yet but you are willing to slate ATW before even finding out!! Amazing scenes Jeff.

 

[Solent&Wessex]

This was my thought, as surely these tickets/receipts are going to be massively open to fraud? Are purely visual inspection of tickets is soon to be a thing of the past, as anyone inclined to do so could print up one of these things...

As much as I don't like it, I get why they're so drawn to till roll, but to use bog standard blank paper roll seems like madness!

I agree. My local bus operator now uses rolls with their logo printed in pastel shades into the paper itself.

At least ATOC could have some standard RSP ticket rolls with some security features.

 

[reb0118]

I make a fairly regular (at least twice a month) journey from an unmanned ATW valley line station that has no ticketing facilities to Bath Spa. Currently I can board the train, buy a ticket direct to Bath Spa from the guard, arrive at Cardiff Central at 22 minutes past the hour and jump on the board the half past Portsmouth Harbour service (valid connection as the minimum time at CDF is 7 minutes). Now I will not be able to do that and presumably will have to fuss about at Cardiff Central to buy a proper ticket. Useless. Do ATW actually give a damn about their passengers?

AFAIAA you should not have to delay your journey en route if you are unable to purchase a through ticket, through no fault of your own, at your originating station or indeed from the guard of your first train if unstaffed. You can simply board the next train and excess your ticket to the appropriate fare when required. You do not have to seek the guard out on your next train but IMO it will do your case no harm at all if you do mention prior to boarding, if it is safe & practical to do so, that you need to "excess" your ticket. Staff at GWR should be aware of the limitations of the new issuing systems at ATW and will no doubt act accordingly.

Not ideal but then again not really such a big deal after all.

 

[trentside]

I'm led to believe that Stagecoach companies will be going down the ATOS route, but I'm pretty sure that is also a paper roll ticket.

I was shown a video of the ATOS 'work in progress' by someone who visited Worldline at Beeston awhile ago. It suggested a belt mounted printer, using orange stock. Whether that is in the final version or not remains to be seen.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Not ideal but then again not really such a big deal after all.

ATW are known to want to withdraw from the national ticketing system. Is more than one thing potentially being trialled here?

 

[reb0118]

ATW are known to want to withdraw from the national ticketing system.

Maybe after Welsh independence?................

 

[ainsworth74]

ATW are known to want to withdraw from the national ticketing system.

How is that supposed to work?

 

[Bletchleyite]

How is that supposed to work?

I have no idea, but they have stated that wish before. If you search on here you'll probably find a discussion on the matter.

 

[Sleepy]

Maybe ask what ATW what you can do in that situation and let them answer before you ask if they give a damn about their passengers. Im sure they have something in mind for those journeys that cross the border.

Wow so ATW are quite happy to lose commision on long distance tickets !!
Arriva really should have stuck to buses IMO

 

[FordFocus]

Sell a saver on this bus ticket. Scrunched up at the back of a purse or wallet for 29 days. Ticket unreadable on return leg.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Sell a saver on this bus ticket. Scrunched up at the back of a purse or wallet for 29 days. Ticket unreadable on return leg.

I'd venture the view that the vast majority of Off Peak Returns screwed up in the back of anyone's wallet for 29 days are probably being illegally re-used. Most people don't use them over anything like that long a period.

 

[WelshBluebird]

So ATW on Twitter aren't being too helpful. All they can say is buy at a ticket office, presumably Cardiff Central if need be. So that does tie in with my assumption that I'd need to buy when making my connection and so potentially miss a train. They didn't seem sure though and suggested phoning up which I may well do when I get chance.

I'd venture the view that the vast majority of Off Peak Returns screwed up in the back of anyone's wallet for 29 days are probably being illegally re-used. Most people don't use them over anything like that long a period.

Even if you bring that down to something like 2 weeks (which IMO is more than a reasonable situation to be in) then I seriously doubt these tickets will be readable. Hell even after a week I'd be surprised if they were still ok.

AFAIAA you should not have to delay your journey en route if you are unable to purchase a through ticket, through no fault of your own, at your originating station or indeed from the guard of your first train if unstaffed. You can simply board the next train and excess your ticket to the appropriate fare when required. You do not have to seek the guard out on your next train but IMO it will do your case no harm at all if you do mention prior to boarding, if it is safe & practical to do so, that you need to "excess" your ticket. Staff at GWR should be aware of the limitations of the new issuing systems at ATW and will no doubt act accordingly.

Not ideal but then again not really such a big deal after all.

While I am aware of that being the general idea, is that actually written down anywhere? Unless there is a define source for that I'd rather not take that risk really considering some staff I have bumped into in the past!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Even if you bring that down to something like 2 weeks (which IMO is more than a reasonable situation to be in) then I seriously doubt these tickets will be readable. Hell even after a week I'd be surprised if they were still ok.

They are to be printed on till roll, right? I frequently leave till receipts in my wallet for 2 weeks or more before submitting them for an expense claim, and they are always readable when straightened out.

Some bus companies use a type of paper which I believe is deliberately designed to fade to unreadable in about a week and a half. This isn't proposed to be used, is it?

 

[nidave]

A retrograde step IMO, just printing receipt style tickets on blank paper is worse than the SPORTIS solution. Not a surprise for cheapo ATW/Arriva, but hopefully other TOCs/owning groups will come through with ticket stock based solutions.

NI Railways do this and have done this for a long time. Pretty sure its the same as the ones they use on the buses.

 

[krus_aragon]

So you dont know if they are sorted out yet but you are willing to slate ATW before even finding out!! Amazing scenes Jeff.

Well, the information provided on ATW's website is as follows:

How will it affect you?
As well as the physical change to your ticket, during the pilot period you will initially only be able to buy tickets for journeys on the Arriva Trains Wales network. If you require a ticket for a journey beyond our network, your conductor will advise on how to purchase a ticket for journeys beyond the Arriva Trains Wales network.

I don't think WelshBluebird's interpretation of the situation is far wrong. Given that this is a replacement for Avantix, the guard isn't going to be able to issue anything other than the bus-style tickets. If there's no TVM on the platform, what other possibilities are there from an unmanned station, other than "Go to the ticket office at Cardiff"? I can't think of any, but if you have, please share them.

 

[island]

NI Railways do this and have done this for a long time. Pretty sure its the same as the ones they use on the buses.

Yes it's security paper though with Translink logos and such.