Theoretical situations

[DasLunatic]

For the record, I have not done anything yet, I just wanted to ask some questions based off threads I've read here and sort some things out.

1) I get done for a £20 Penalty Fare. Having gone on a holiday to Japan, and forgetting to put English money in my wallet, I give the inspector 4,000 yen. Have I been deemed to have paid my PF?

2) I encounter a RPI on my train to X. I present just my outward ticket, as I have lost the return portion. How likely am I to be PF'd?

3) I travel between a station owned by A and B using a train operated by C. Who do I pay the potential PF to?

4) Can you be PF'd and claim Delay Repay on the same journey?

I ask these purely to satisfy my curiosity. Many thanks in advance

 

[island]

1) Not unless the RPI accepts it. Yen is not legal tender in the UK.

2) Very unlikely indeed.

3) Whoever it says to pay it to on the PF notice.

4) Yes. It is untested whether the compensation is based on the amount of the PF or some other amount.

 

[najaB]

For the record, I have not done anything yet...

Yet?

I just wanted to ask some questions based off threads I've read here and sort some things out.

1) I get done for a £20 Penalty Fare. Having gone on a holiday to Japan, and forgetting to put English money in my wallet, I give the inspector 4,000 yen. Have I been deemed to have paid my PF?

2) I encounter a RPI on my train to X. I present just my outward ticket, as I have lost the return portion. How likely am I to be PF'd?

3) I travel between a station owned by A and B using a train operated by C. Who do I pay the potential PF to?

4) Can you be PF'd and claim Delay Repay on the same journey?

I ask these purely to satisfy my curiosity. Many thanks in advance

1. If the TOC accepts it, yes.
2. Extremely unlikely.
3. Whomever it is asking for the money.
4. Can't see why not.

 

[gray1404]

Why is the answer to no 2. unlikely?

 

[yorkie]

If you are on the outward portion, no-one is going to ask to see the return portion unless you are travelling after the first day of validity.

 

[najaB]

Why is the answer to no 2. unlikely?

Exactly as Yorkie said: while technically the outward portion isn't valid without the return, I think it exceedingly unlikely that a Guard/RPI would actually ask to see it.

 

[gray1404]

Sorry, I kind of misread the situation. I thought the OP meant they were travelling on the return half of a ticket, but had lost the return part of the ticket but still had the outward. Silly me.

 

[andywandy]

Is there a thread for hypothetical questions like this? If not there should be !

 

[cf111]

For the record, I have not done anything yet, I just wanted to ask some questions based off threads I've read here and sort some things out.

1) I get done for a £20 Penalty Fare. Having gone on a holiday to Japan, and forgetting to put English money in my wallet, I give the inspector 4,000 yen. Have I been deemed to have paid my PF?

1. If you ran a shop would you accept chickens as payment in lieu of pound sterling?

2) I encounter a RPI on my train to X. I present just my outward ticket, as I have lost the return portion. How likely am I to be PF'd?

2. If you are on the return portion of the journey it would depend on how generous the inspector is feeling - you don't have a valid ticket so they would be quite within their rights to give you a PF.

3) I travel between a station owned by A and B using a train operated by C. Who do I pay the potential PF to?

3. Network Rail own most stations outside a select few and don't collect penalty fares. You would pay the PF to C.

4) Can you be PF'd and claim Delay Repay on the same journey?

No idea.

 

[MikeWh]

3. Network Rail own most stations outside a select few and don't collect penalty fares. You would pay the PF to C.

Not necessarily. Company C might operate the train travelled on, but company B, or even D, might employ the RPIs at the destination station. The correct answer is that it is paid to the address shown on the paperwork.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

I agree with island's replies (which I think are echoed by all the others).

I'd just add that the assessment of 'unlikely' to #2 is more of an uncertainty about the particular officer's assesment of what is said and done, and is not an explanation of the obligations that do apply.
There is a common misapprehension that a ticket places an equal obligation on a Railway Company to convey a passenger as it does oblige the passenger to travel with a Railway Company. A ticket-holding passenger is under no duty to travel, and consequently, cannot be under any duty to present a ticket for a future journey which is discretionary.

Is there a thread for hypothetical questions like this?

No, but these questions certainly don't belong in 'Disputes and Prosecutions', perhaps better in 'Fares Advice & Policy'.

 

[greatkingrat]

If TOCs claim that a Penalty Fare is a higher than normal fare, and not a fine, then logically if you are delayed by over 30 mins I suppose you should be able to claim half the penalty fare back!

 

[causton]

Not necessarily. Company C might operate the train travelled on, but company B, or even D, might employ the RPIs at the destination station. The correct answer is that it is paid to the address shown on the paperwork.

I was going to say, technically a London Midland member of staff could give you a penalty fare for travelling on a Southern train between two London Overground stations... very unlikely but...!

 

[island]

I agree with island's replies (which I think are echoed by all the others).

I'd just add that the assessment of 'unlikely' to #2 is more of an uncertainty about the particular officer's assesment of what is said and done, and is not an explanation of the obligations that do apply.
There is a common misapprehension that a ticket places an equal obligation on a Railway Company to convey a passenger as it does oblige the passenger to travel with a Railway Company. A ticket-holding passenger is under no duty to travel, and consequently, cannot be under any duty to present a ticket for a future journey which is discretionary.

I will have to politely disagree with you on this. The conditions state that the outbound half of a return ticket is valid only with the unused return half of the same ticket.

For the record my answer above is assuming that the outbound ticket is presented on the outbound journey.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

I will have to politely disagree with you on this. The conditions state that the outbound half of a return ticket is valid only with the unused return half of the same ticket.

For the record my answer above is assuming that the outbound ticket is presented on the outbound journey.

You are absolutely correct!
Perhaps I had read too much into DasLunatic's line of thinking that the potential Penalty Fare would arise from his or her stating "I present just my outward ticket" which in itself does not trigger a P.F. As I had replied, this does not invoke any obligation on the passenger to present any more than the portion which relates to the journey being taken.

It is equally true that there remains the potential for the inspector to enquire further, which I had hoped to cover with my preamble : "that the assessment of 'unlikely' to #2 is more of an uncertainty about the particular officer's assesment of what is said and done, and is not an explanation of the obligations that do apply."

Clearly, an uninvited declaration of "I have lost the return portion." is going to trigger the consequences of "what is said and done".

 

[Romilly]

1. If you ran a shop would you accept chickens as payment in lieu of pound sterling?

More relevantly, perhaps, there are shops in London (and quite possibly elsewhere in the UK) that will accept Euros and/or US Dollars, and also cash machines on TfL stations and elsewhere that will offer the choice of Sterling or Euros.

 

[PermitToTravel]

No TOC accepts Yen though, and I'm not aware of any that accept non-Sterling currencies on board.

 

[headshot119]

No TOC accepts Yen though, and I'm not aware of any that accept non-Sterling currencies on board.

I thought EMT accepted euros on board? (Though that could have been from a couple of years back, and it might have only been the catering that did)

 

[tony_mac]

No TOC accepts Yen though

Heathrow Express do (at their ticket offices)
https://www.heathrowexpress.com/docs/default-source/policies/conditions-of-carriage.pdf?sfvrsn=6

 

[rpjs]

Another theoretical, or perhaps not so, question: what about overseas visitors who whether by accident or design travel with no/invalid ticket? I'm British but now live in the USA. I have no intention of travellng on a British train while visiting without the correct ticket, but if by some mischance I did, what practically could an RPI do? What would be their likely reaction if I gave my US address when asked for my details? (Let's say for the sake of argument I'm not inclined to show them my US driver's licence which would prove my address.)

 

[island]

You are not obliged to produce ID to an RPI nor provide any details to them other than your name and address. They would probably encourage you to pay for any Penalty Fare or new ticket, as appropriate, in full on the spot.

In the most extreme, which is exceptionally unlikely, they could detain you until the arrival of the BTP. The police could arrest you if they believe you to have committed an offence (such as joining a train without a ticket where facilities to do so were available) and one of the conditions of SOCPA is met, which would most likely be to prevent the prosecution of the offence being hindered by your disappearance. Again, this is really very unlikely indeed and would probably only arise due to an extreme failure of the attitude test, an egregious breach of ticketing laws, and all of the officers involved being in a very bad mood.

(An analogous incident happened on one of the myriad police TV shows that I watch, where a foreign national was arrested for driving a lorry when loaded in excess of the maximum permissible weight, after being non-cooperative with the constable.)

 

[exile]

A question that occurs to me - if an outward portion is not valid without the return portion - why in the same of sanity are they separate?

 

[PermitToTravel]

Perhaps to enable gates to eat half?

Can ticket offices still sell one-part returns?

 

[island]

A question that occurs to me - if an outward portion is not valid without the return portion - why in the same of sanity are they separate?

Amongst other reasons, the halves have different expiry dates if it is a period return.

 

[MikeWh]

Perhaps to enable gates to eat half?

Can ticket offices still sell one-part returns?

Yes if they include a travelcard.